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Author Topic: The Stephen Desper Thread  (Read 718543 times)
Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1675 on: October 06, 2015, 08:56:37 PM »

Hello there,

I don't know if this has been asked before but I'm willing to post this question anyway.  "Busy Doin' Nothin'" has always been a favourite of mine, from the sound of Brian's voice, the instrumentation (is that an Electra Piano or Rocksichord playing along with the guitar?) and the great chord changes.  Also, upon first hearing the track I heard what sounds a lot like a vocal humming during the verses (the second verse has a humming in a higher register too) but sort of goes off key as it moves downwards on the scale.  It's pretty buried in the mix but I've always wondered what it might be.  Was it Brian simply humming along or was it another instrument?  Like I mentioned earlier, the reason I felt it was humming is because it goes slightly off key in places.  Deliberately, I would imagine. 

Kind regards
COMMENT:  Could it be the humming you refer to is the sax and trombone overdub in the background?  ~swd
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1676 on: October 06, 2015, 09:09:47 PM »

  I love recordings where the vocals are "up front"...and "directly connected" to the listener...with little space between the vocals and the listener.  Not highly compressed at all, it's not a compression issue...but recorded so that there's a "direct sound experience" and a "lack of a gap" between the vocals and the listener. Close and Up Front.

COMMENT:  You should like "Lady" from the addendum  at my website. Dennis, in your face.  ~swd

http://swdstudyvideos.com  click on Recording The Beach Boys -- Part One - Addendum, then listen to Dennis sing "Lady."

Thanks too, for the link with George Martin & Brian. Good stuff!!
  ~swd
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« Reply #1677 on: October 07, 2015, 01:07:16 AM »

Hello there,

I don't know if this has been asked before but I'm willing to post this question anyway.  "Busy Doin' Nothin'" has always been a favourite of mine, from the sound of Brian's voice, the instrumentation (is that an Electra Piano or Rocksichord playing along with the guitar?) and the great chord changes.  Also, upon first hearing the track I heard what sounds a lot like a vocal humming during the verses (the second verse has a humming in a higher register too) but sort of goes off key as it moves downwards on the scale.  It's pretty buried in the mix but I've always wondered what it might be.  Was it Brian simply humming along or was it another instrument?  Like I mentioned earlier, the reason I felt it was humming is because it goes slightly off key in places.  Deliberately, I would imagine.  

Kind regards
COMMENT:  Could it be the humming you refer to is the sax and trombone overdub in the background?  ~swd


Hm, it could well be a sax or trombone.  More likely a trombone just by the sound of it.  Still, it seems to be placed "alone" or apart from the rest of the instruments, if you understand my meaning?  Interesting.  Thanks for the reply, Stephen.  
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« Reply #1678 on: October 07, 2015, 04:07:02 AM »

Hello there,

I don't know if this has been asked before but I'm willing to post this question anyway.  "Busy Doin' Nothin'" has always been a favourite of mine, from the sound of Brian's voice, the instrumentation (is that an Electra Piano or Rocksichord playing along with the guitar?) and the great chord changes.  Also, upon first hearing the track I heard what sounds a lot like a vocal humming during the verses (the second verse has a humming in a higher register too) but sort of goes off key as it moves downwards on the scale.  It's pretty buried in the mix but I've always wondered what it might be.  Was it Brian simply humming along or was it another instrument?  Like I mentioned earlier, the reason I felt it was humming is because it goes slightly off key in places.  Deliberately, I would imagine.  

Kind regards
COMMENT:  Could it be the humming you refer to is the sax and trombone overdub in the background?  ~swd


Hm, it could well be a sax or trombone.  More likely a trombone just by the sound of it.  Still, it seems to be placed "alone" or apart from the rest of the instruments, if you understand my meaning?  Interesting.  Thanks for the reply, Stephen.  

It's Brian and Marilyn singing descending "ahh"s together.
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« Reply #1679 on: October 07, 2015, 03:28:41 PM »

  I love recordings where the vocals are "up front"...and "directly connected" to the listener...with little space between the vocals and the listener.  Not highly compressed at all, it's not a compression issue...but recorded so that there's a "direct sound experience" and a "lack of a gap" between the vocals and the listener. Close and Up Front.

COMMENT:  You should like "Lady" from the addendum  at my website. Dennis, in your face.  ~swd

http://swdstudyvideos.com  click on Recording The Beach Boys -- Part One - Addendum, then listen to Dennis sing "Lady."

Thanks too, for the link with George Martin & Brian. Good stuff!!
  ~swd

Thank you, Mr. Desper.  I appreciate it.
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« Reply #1680 on: October 07, 2015, 04:23:54 PM »

"...but that's not me..." Mr. Stephen W. Desper details in his educational video, of course, how multi-tracks could be sold for creative mixing by the purchaser/listener/soon to be mixer of the Beach Boys.  Wouldn't it be nice if Mr. Desper recorded an upcoming Brian Wilson and Al Jardine concert? "Two words, my son, as you venture out into the world as a New Graduate:  "Microphone Placement".

COMMENT    in todays technical climate, why not record each of the sound system microphones on a separate track, along with room mics, and offer $$ as a download for those interested in pulling their own mix. "Be a house mixer at home."  Walk around the stage, sonically during the performance. Study each voice and guitar for technique. Sweeten with your own tracks.

That's what I would do.
~swd
I love new/original/great/groundbreaking ideas like this.  Someday, what you have proposed will be the norm.  Thank you for sharing your experience and creativity with us.  And your extensive knowledge.  (Also, your artistry.)

Additional 10-31-15 note:  I have Beach Boys' Party! on cassette and really enjoy it.  I wish this "new" offering was available via analog cassette, expertly mixed by Mr. Desper as an added bonus...:   http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B016J8GG5E?tag=viglink20252-20
« Last Edit: October 31, 2015, 06:56:12 AM by DRM » Logged
Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1681 on: November 06, 2015, 10:06:46 AM »

COMMENT:

Fellow Fans,   I have a favor to ask of you.  On page 3 of my website is a button marked  [ Friends (album) – “Passing By” and other song samples ].  I would like some feedback on the sound so that I know if I’m just spinning my reels or going in the right direction.

1.   Would you like to hear more songs “re-mastered” in this way?
2.   Was there an improvement in being able to hear into the mix?
3.   Was the mix opened-up or expanded?
4.   Were you able to discern vocal parts or instruments better?
5.   Did you feel more enveloped by the sound and relate better with song, and was this a good thing?
6.   Was your listening experience improved or about the same as before?

Thanks in advance for you input.
  ~swd

http://swdstudyvideos.com
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« Reply #1682 on: November 06, 2015, 10:48:33 AM »

Answers:

1. Heck yeah. Even with crappy speakers in work I could hear a difference.

2. Yes indeed. Can't wait to listen at home tomorrow morning.

3. Yes. Hearing Passing By open up was really cool.

4. Diamond Head was very cool. The percussion was amazing. While not just left, it was far left. Almost a surround type of sound.

5. Absolutely, see 4 above. Smiley

6. Improved, but really want to hear this at home on a better system.
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On Stage As It Is In Studio,
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And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
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« Reply #1683 on: November 06, 2015, 07:03:37 PM »

Excellent!  The sound is up front and right with me.  Right here where I want it to be.  Truly Excellent.  And God is my witness, in the past week I unfortunately broke my cassette copy of Friends/20/20 by fast forwarding toward the end of one of the sides of the cassette.  I was hesitating about purchasing another copy right away and thought I might attempt to fix the cassette, but never have tried to do this yet with a broken tape.  After reading this new post from Mr. Desper, I purchased online another Friends/20/20 cassette.  Again, your remastered work is excellent, not distanced away from the listener...from me.  Everything up front and well positioned and "with me".  Thank you, Mr. Desper.   I think Friends as well as 20/20 are both underrated albums and it's wonderful to hear the improvement.
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« Reply #1684 on: November 07, 2015, 04:02:44 AM »

COMMENT:

Fellow Fans,   I have a favor to ask of you.  On page 3 of my website is a button marked  [ Friends (album) – “Passing By” and other song samples ].  I would like some feedback on the sound so that I know if I’m just spinning my reels or going in the right direction.

1.   Would you like to hear more songs “re-mastered” in this way?
2.   Was there an improvement in being able to hear into the mix?
3.   Was the mix opened-up or expanded?
4.   Were you able to discern vocal parts or instruments better?
5.   Did you feel more enveloped by the sound and relate better with song, and was this a good thing?
6.   Was your listening experience improved or about the same as before?

Thanks in advance for you input.
  ~swd

http://swdstudyvideos.com


Holy sh*t!...Stephen, you are not spinning reels ( Grin) and are heading, or rather, determining the right direction.

Friends is a personal favourite and I've always been fond of it's sonics - but you've totally amped it up with your magic.

1) I would love to hear more remastered this way, you don't need to ask me twice. Would these techniques work on Love You - How about Dennis's beautiful POB (what could you do with the vocal interludes on Thoughts of You, or the layered track of Rainbows?)

2) & 4) The seperation between each instrument or vocal was unrivaled in my limited experience.  The tambourine hits v the tom hits in "Be There..." a great example.  Added texture to the picked Bass line in Anna Lee. Drool....

3) My rig is (to my current shame) set up close to a perimeter wall at this point in time (left speaker).  Yet the drums in Passing By and Diamond Head were apparently coming in from outside the house - while retaining the clarity of the mix.

5) & 6) Everytime there is news of a reissue, or a repackage, new format, hi res remix flat transfer what have you, I wonder what more can be squeezed from recordings some 40-50 years later.  And yet again I am confounded (in a good way) by a new layer of hitherto unrevealed detail.  My listening experience for Friends is immediately different and improved by these small snippets alone.

Major thanks to both you and Mike C. If only I had the cash to fund a niche collection of vinyl, SACDs or Blu Ray remastered and presented by SD & Co - A

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« Reply #1685 on: November 07, 2015, 07:33:17 PM »

The remasters of Little Bird, Transcendental Meditation, and Anna Lee are just simply amazing! It's like hearing them for the first time again, especially the very ending of Anna Lee, I've never heard it sound so beautifully echoey before! Fantastic work Stephen!
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« Reply #1686 on: November 08, 2015, 07:59:03 PM »

Mr. Desper,

I don't post often, but I wanted to thank you for your contributions here and your continued work on these videos. They are an absolute treasure for fans. This board is lucky to have your participation and insight. Thank you very much.
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« Reply #1687 on: November 13, 2015, 03:48:02 AM »

COMMENT:

Fellow Fans,   I have a favor to ask of you.  On page 3 of my website is a button marked  [ Friends (album) – “Passing By” and other song samples ].  I would like some feedback on the sound so that I know if I’m just spinning my reels or going in the right direction.

1.   Would you like to hear more songs “re-mastered” in this way?
2.   Was there an improvement in being able to hear into the mix?
3.   Was the mix opened-up or expanded?
4.   Were you able to discern vocal parts or instruments better?
5.   Did you feel more enveloped by the sound and relate better with song, and was this a good thing?
6.   Was your listening experience improved or about the same as before?

Thanks in advance for you input.
  ~swd

http://swdstudyvideos.com


Sorry, don't have a lot of time to reply but...

1) Yes! The mastering on nearly all digital releases of Beach Boys albums is not good.

2) + 4) Yes. e.g Drums, the reverb on vocals, little instrumental parts previously hidden.

3) Definitely expanded. The bass fills the room. Some instruments seem to be coming from beyond the speakers.

5) Yes!

6) Improved. Massively. This is what music is meant to sound like. Especially something as sonically beautiful and as amazingly musical as the Beach Boys.
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« Reply #1688 on: November 19, 2015, 12:07:55 AM »

Mr. Desper,

Do you have any recollections of the composition/recording of the disco-esque tag to Spring's "Thinkin' Bout You Baby" that features Brian on vocals? It's one of my favorite Beach Boys related pieces of the 70's and wondered what you remember of it, and if you recall other pieces like that being tried/shelved?

(I looped up a segment of it for my personal extended enjoyment of its magic, that you can hear here: https://soundcloud.com/davesegal/spring-ooh-baby-loop-demo)
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1689 on: November 20, 2015, 08:47:36 AM »

Mr. Desper,

Do you have any recollections of the composition/recording of the disco-esque tag to Spring's "Thinkin' Bout You Baby" that features Brian on vocals? It's one of my favorite Beach Boys related pieces of the 70's and wondered what you remember of it, and if you recall other pieces like that being tried/shelved?

(I looped up a segment of it for my personal extended enjoyment of its magic, that you can hear here: https://soundcloud.com/davesegal/spring-ooh-baby-loop-demo)

COMMENT:

Your post gave me a chuckle.  As you may know I have added various elements to songs I’ve engineered over the years. From the barker’s voice in Loop’ to bass lines, Moog jazz vamps, drum parts, sound effects, etc. I have an understanding with the guys that I get to sing with them on some part, somewhere, in each album we record. My contribution is usually singing with the group and is blended with their harmonies so you can’t really hear anything I’ve sung distinctly. I’ve done this for my own satisfaction and knowing that I have sung with the greatest vocal group of modern times. The times I’ve done this is so far and few between, I can’t even remember what I added or which song it was.

I think it’s important for recording engineers to experience what the artist is up against at least once in a while, just to gain insight and maybe help the engineer relate to the problems the artist may have.

In the case of Spring, one evening Marilyn and Diane had finished added vocals to this song. When they came back to the control room for a playback I told Marilyn that I was hearing this little tag part in my head and sang it for her. She liked it but suggested I sing it. I replied, no, you’re the singer and I’m the engineer. Well she said, you’re doing OK with the part why don’t you add it. You show me what to do and I’ll run the board. So we agreed on that and I showed her what buttons to push for the punch-in and which slider to move and what meter to watch for a level. I went out to the studio, put on headphones and added that part. Then we backed the tape up, switched tracks and again I went out to the studio to add an overdub. That was the hardest part. While I was singing the overdub, I remember reflecting back on the many overdubs the Beach Boys have added and how easy they made it seem, when it is really, I learned that night, very difficult to do.

So I had to laugh when you actually made a loop of the part. Sort of flattering. I’d forgotten about it. Just a few days ago I was with Brian asking if he remembered much about those times, because Professor Conner and I are in the planning stages of doing a study-video on the Spring album. It should answer many of the pending questions surrounding the creation of this album. Don't have a finish date, but it will yield many interesting facts, such as the one above, when it's finalized.


~SWD
« Last Edit: November 20, 2015, 03:33:25 PM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
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« Reply #1690 on: November 20, 2015, 03:02:23 PM »

WOW!!! What an exciting clarification on that! So glad you made that suggestion of the tag part and SO GLAD they made you sing it! It's fantastic!
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« Reply #1691 on: November 29, 2015, 11:49:57 PM »


Mr. Desper thank you for your awesome insights.  The Spring album has been one of my favorites since I bought it at my local Music Plus back in 1988.  In fact, I think Rhino's line-up is actually better than the original United Artists'.  I do have a couple question if you (or anyone) can answer.

Why did Spring sign with UA?  With Brother Records active, wouldn't it have be easier to release the album through them?  I am sure Mo Ostin and the executives at Warner Bros. to see Brian Wilson productions being release by another company.

How involved was David Sandler?  Conflicting reports say his role was more akin to an Associate Producer (doing most of the work after Brian did the basic tracks), a 50-50 producer, to actually being the main force behind the production.   I think you may have left the group by this time, but did you do any work on the Iowa songs (Shyin' Away, Fallin' In Love, Snowflakes)?

Finally, what was the group's reaction to Brian working with Spring and not them?  A few years later, the group prevented Brian from producing with Equinox after they found out he signed a deal with them, so it is interesting to see Brian not only produce Spring but use an existing track like "Good Time"?

Lastly, I get get to your videos and it frustrates me!   I have use several browser and have copy and pasted all different combinations.  Is there a secret?  Do I need to go to another site for the password?  The copying and pasting or typing is not working.

Thank you for all you have done to make my life a little better when I listen to my favorite era of Beach Boys' music and I look forward to reading more of your insights.

Regards

Bluerincon1

-"Throwing off all the shackles that are binding me down"
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« Reply #1692 on: November 29, 2015, 11:51:30 PM »

Why did Spring sign with UA?  With Brother Records active, wouldn't it have be easier to release the album through them?  I am sure Mo Ostin and the executives at Warner Bros. may not have been happy to see Brian Wilson productions being release by a rival company.
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« Reply #1693 on: November 30, 2015, 06:58:04 AM »

COMMENT to bluerincon1:  your answers follow.

Why did Spring sign with UA?  With Brother Records active, wouldn't it have be easier to release the album through them?  I am sure Mo Ostin and the executives at Warner Bros. to see Brian Wilson productions being release by another company.
I have no idea. That was all arranged and under the control of Marylyn.

How involved was David Sandler?  Conflicting reports say his role was more akin to an Associate Producer (doing most of the work after Brian did the basic tracks), a 50-50 producer, to actually being the main force behind the production.   I think you may have left the group by this time, but did you do any work on the Iowa songs (Shyin' Away, Fallin' In Love, Snowflakes)?
Sandler worked with the girls on vocal arraignments and some instrumental arrangement. Some tracks had been previously used by The Beach Boys or were cut by them and unused. Since these were cut in Marylyn's home she was aware of the tracks and ask Brian if she could use them, which he OKed. When it became time for the actual recording to start we saw little of Brian or Sandler in the studio. All of their work was before recording started. I acted as engineer/producer for the actual recording, which many engineers find themselves doing. The girls were kind enough to give me production credit on the SPRING album along with Brian Wilson and David Sandler.  I was involved with the original album, which was recorded in Brian's home studio. The next album was released or re-released some time later with some changes in the lineup due to legal conflicts from an English group called "Spring." Marylyn changed the name to "American Spring" to differentiate the group from the English counterpart. By the time the second album was created, I was long-gone and working with Frank Zappa in Australia. The first album had been "field tested" when the re-release was required due to a pending lawsuit. By this time reaction from reviewers and fans influenced the re-issue. It was thought it could be made more commercial by making the changes you now know. I don't know much about the second album or any of the songs not on the first album.
 
Finally, what was the group's reaction to Brian working with Spring and not them?  A few years later, the group prevented Brian from producing with Equinox after they found out he signed a deal with them, so it is interesting to see Brian not only produce Spring but use an existing track like "Good Time"?
The Beach Boys were fine with Brian working with his wife and her sister and with the use of their tracks. After all, everyone was friends and family. It was not Brian who recycled existing tracks, it was Marylyn who did this. She and her sister were more creative than people realize. Spring (the group) should actually have given themselves production credit, but then they would not have had the clout that Brian's name, as one of the producers, gave to the album.
The study-video I am making will deal with the first album since that is the one I worked on.

Hope this answers your questions.
  ~swd
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« Reply #1694 on: November 30, 2015, 07:14:00 AM »

Spring signed with UA because the girls had a friend - Cherie Campion - in the company and she took the tape of the first single in for A&R to consider. The rest, we know.

As for the second Spring album Stephen mentions... this is news to me. The girls cut four tracks in Iowa in early 1973, two of which were released by Columbia on a single as American Spring. After that, the group were inactive for some five years.
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« Reply #1695 on: November 30, 2015, 09:53:04 AM »

Spring signed with UA because the girls had a friend - Cherie Campion - in the company and she took the tape of the first single in for A&R to consider. The rest, we know.

As for the second Spring album Stephen mentions... this is news to me. The girls cut four tracks in Iowa in early 1973, two of which were released by Columbia on a single as American Spring. After that, the group were inactive for some five years.

COMMENT

Thanks for that information. I learned something.

Andrew, By "first album" I mean the one titled Spring.  By "second album" I mean the one titled American Spring.  The first album has a mask casting of the girls and the second album is a photograph of them.

Hope that clears it up.
~swd
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« Reply #1696 on: November 30, 2015, 10:09:44 AM »

Ah, now l understand. The "second" album is the CD reissue with bonus tracks.
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« Reply #1697 on: November 30, 2015, 10:40:52 AM »

Ah, now l understand. The "second" album is the CD reissue with bonus tracks.

COMMENT:  I have a question for you. I am only familiar with the LP Spring. When it was re-issued as American Spring, was it only in a digitized form (CD) or did it also come out as an LP?  ~swd
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« Reply #1698 on: November 30, 2015, 10:56:32 AM »

To my knowledge, never as an LP. However, outside the US, the 1972 album was released as by American Spring.
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« Reply #1699 on: November 30, 2015, 02:21:49 PM »

To my knowledge, never as an LP. However, outside the US, the 1972 album was released as by American Spring.


Sorry but IF we are talking about the 'SPRING PLUS' 'see for miles' release (expanded version) in the late 80's it certainly was a CD and LP release
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