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Author Topic: The Stephen Desper Thread  (Read 718893 times)
king of anglia
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« Reply #1625 on: August 29, 2015, 07:46:54 AM »


Appreciate any comments you may leave here and I would especially like to hear of your listening experiences, in particular those who have their computers connected to a good sound system or stereo system.  I’m curious to hear if your perception of the sound was different than you were use to hearing. I would also some feedback about the presentation, especially the book part of part one, and if it was reasonably convenient to manipulate?


I've had a couple of listens now. Haven't been able to really pump it out loud though.

First thing, I haven't listened to the "contender" songs as much as the Sunflower tracks so it's harder to compare. There are a few details that seem to stand out more in the "matrix" versions than the regular versions. But the sources (compilations, bootlegs etc...) of these tracks have been sporadic and varied in terms of sound quality, again, it's hard to make a meaningful comparison.

The Sunflower video you did was a revelation in terms of the differences in mixing and mastering between the original vinyl and CD release. So much more expansive and clearer. Especially the needle drop. The differences here aren't so obvious... maybe I need to listen more.

So, questions:

Does the master tape of San Miguel sound similar to the needle drop version here?

The kick drum on Til I Die here is more prominent - is that because it's a different / earlier mix or is it due to the matrix device?

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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1626 on: August 29, 2015, 08:20:51 AM »

So, questions:

Does the master tape of San Miguel sound similar to the needle drop version here?      No. It has been mixed down several times. Funny you should ask this question because the Study-Video concerning San Miguel is all about differences in master mixes. Don't know exactly when, but look for a Study-Video on SM this winter.

The kick drum on Til I Die here is more prominent - is that because it's a different / earlier mix or is it due to the matrix device?     It is because of the action of the leading waveform restoration circuit that is active along with the matrix device.  I would value your opinion about it. Do you think it is too dominate or about where it should be in the balance?  What is your taste? 


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are following the suggested listening position of the Study-Video, could you tell me if you hear any sounds beyond the left and right of the speakers, and also if you hear vocals in other places within the sound field. Your opinion is important to me.  ~swd
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1627 on: August 29, 2015, 08:23:49 AM »

THE CONTENDER SONGS

COMMENT:

What are The Contender Songs?

In Recording The Beach Boys part one on pages 59 to 72, I detail my experiences with respect to the so-called alternate Sunflower albums. From the book:


NOTE:  The two “rejected reference LP acetate” copies are provided for educational evaluation through playback, with matrix applied, as an addendum to Recording The Beach Boys – Part One. Please use the button labeled “RTBB-1 Addendum One” to view a Study-Video that provides some engineering insight into the production of these reference LPs and their rejected songs.  Both versions that you will hear in the addendum were mastered at Artisan Sound Recorders by Bob MacLeod with Carl Wilson and myself overseeing each mastering session.

Now up on my website is the Addendum to part one that includes (1) comments on each Contender Song and it’s “re-mastering” via the matrix, and (2) playback of both Sunflower reference LP’s that went to the record company(s), but were rejected. I hope this puts to rest all the past speculation (some presented as fact) on the evolvement of the final Sunflower play list.

Please thank Professor Mike Conner for all his time and creative key punching to bring to the study-video format; The Addendum to Part One. 

Appreciate any comments you may leave here and I would especially like to hear of your listening experiences, in particular those who have their computers connected to a good sound system or stereo system.  I’m curious to hear if your perception of the sound was different than you were use to hearing. I would also some feedback about the presentation, especially the book part of part one, and if it was reasonably convenient to manipulate?

Recording The Beach Boys,  part one – Addendum; with ten Contender Songs is available at the push of a button on my website.  The Contender Songs are Susie Cincinnati, Good Time, When Girls Get Together, Lady, Loop De Loop, Carnival, I Just Got My Pay, San Miguel, H.E.L.P. Is On the Way, Big Sur


http://swdstudyvideos.com


You will find that it is all Good Listening,  ~Stephen W. Desper
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king of anglia
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« Reply #1628 on: August 29, 2015, 09:26:48 AM »

I look forward to that San Miguel video!

The kick drum in Til I Die - I like it! It's not too dominant I don't think. Maybe for 1971 it was - probably quite unusual to have such a prominent drum machine kick so up front back then. You were a pioneer!
Can you explain more about leading edge restoration?

I'm having trouble listening at a good volume to comment well about the sound field - I keep getting told me to turn it down.
However, as with your Sunflower needle drop, the vocals on most of the tracks do appear to be very wide and expansive. The matrix effect seem to be more noticeable on vocals. I don't know if that's due your engineering / mic'ing techniques or more to do with human brain being better at detecting effects on the human voice than musical instruments. Some bass parts are also affected quite significantly - sometime a bass part will seem to envelope and fill the room.

Can you point out some instruments / sections to listen out for where the matrix effect is particularly noticeable? I imagine some tracks have a bigger effect than other e.g. those with a larger range of instruments, backing vocals.

Lastly, a small request: I'd like to hear some of my own music processed through your matrix device. Would it be possible to send you some tracks to "enhance"?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 09:29:24 AM by king of anglia » Logged
Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1629 on: August 29, 2015, 07:13:36 PM »




COMMENTS TO KING OF ANGLIA and answers to questions:

Can you explain more about leading edge restoration? As you know, a waveform has a starting point, a continuation, and an ending point. The start of the waveform is called the leading edge because it is the first part of the continuous waveform that first puts the speaker cone, be it woofer or tweeter, into motion. Looking at the motion of the speaker cone, at first it is at rest. Then comes the waveform in the form of an electrical signal. The electrical signal has a positive going and a negative going constituent which together form the entire waveform. However the two differ at first because the electrical signal, representing a sound, is fully on from the start, whereas the speaker cone has to gain some momentum from a resting place or starting place before it is fully reproducing the waveform. Although we are speaking of only a few iterations of the waveform being lost due to the required inertia needed to get the cone moving, the ear is sensitive enough to notice the hesitation. To overcome this delay the voltage needs to lead the current by a preparatory phase angle. Voltage is sometimes called ‘potential’ because it has the impending instruction, for the current, which is the power and muscle of the electric signal. Thus if the voltage is ahead of the current it can get the speaker cone working in sync with the requirements of the waveform from the get-go. The voltage can anticipate the cone’s inertia lag by starting the current flow sooner so that it is in sync with the waveform from the start. The result is that impact sounds and percussive instruments are more clearly heard, but not louder. The musical balance is undisturbed, but a greater sense of dynamic is reveled. It is dynamics, which impart realism. Leading Edge Waveform Restoration works to overcome the physical shortcomings of motor driven diaphragms.   

I'm having trouble listening at a good volume to comment well about the sound field - I keep getting told me to turn it down.  You don’t need to listen at a loud level to hear spatial cues. In fact, at lower listening levels spatial cues are more easily heard. Or you could wait on people to leave your area.

However, as with your Sunflower needle drop, the vocals on most of the tracks do appear to be very wide and expansive. Could you be more descriptive? How wide? How expansive? Where do you hear Brian or Carl or the snare, etc.?

The matrix effect seems to be more noticeable on vocals. I don't know if that's due your engineering / mic'ing techniques or more to do with human brain being better at detecting effects on the human voice than musical instruments. It’s a merging of all of the above. The frequencies that the ear uses to determine the three “D”s (3D) -- depth, dimension, direction – are all within the mid-range as is the human voice, piano, guitar, horns, lower strings, etc.  So if you know how, you can move these sounds around the sound field--even with two speakers.

Some bass parts are also affected quite significantly - sometime a bass part will seem to envelope and fill the room. What happens is that overdubbing in studios or situations where bass on each playback made for an overdub is captured – the leakage that is – and builds up. The matrix makes the buildup more audible because it was hidden in the various time domains of the multi-track. Since many tracks are panned this spreads out the multiple leaks that seem to form a nebulous bloom about the bass. God Only Knows is an example of this leakage-buildup phenomena. 

Can you point out some instruments / sections to listen out for where the matrix effect is particularly noticeable? I imagine some tracks have a bigger effect than other e.g. those with a larger range of instruments, backing vocals. From I Just Got My Pay to Cool, Cool Water, the effects are there to hear. I have favorites, but you listen and tell me where you hear a pronounced imaging of voices beyond, forward of, or over the speakers in your system.

Thanks for your feedback. Much appreciated. ~swd
 
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« Reply #1630 on: August 30, 2015, 01:57:37 AM »

I have only been able to watch the first part of the new video (stopped before the two early versions of Sunflower), but so far it is absolutely excellent and riddled with great anecdotes. The "re-mastered" songs are a treat and make me wish I had a Spatializer at home... I'm pretty sure there would be a market for new devices.

Thanks a lot, Stephen and Mike!  Cool
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« Reply #1631 on: September 01, 2015, 09:17:45 AM »

Fantastic new video Stephen! Really excited for the Surf's Up one. I had no idea Brian played bass on Susie Cincinatti!
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« Reply #1632 on: September 01, 2015, 04:35:53 PM »

Another great vid. Didn't know that Carnival was a part of "Feet" at one point. Kinda fits there pretty nice as they have the same vibe going.
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1633 on: September 01, 2015, 08:20:15 PM »

Fantastic new video Stephen! Really excited for the Surf's Up one. I had no idea Brian played bass on Susie Cincinatti!
COMMENT:  I don't know who played on the 8-track, but the 16-track has Brian in my notes as playing bass. Could have been the original or a replacement track. ~swd
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« Reply #1634 on: September 01, 2015, 10:00:20 PM »

Wasn't the "bass" played on the bass pedals of an organ?
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1635 on: September 02, 2015, 05:56:57 AM »

Wasn't the "bass" played on the bass pedals of an organ?
  COMMENT:  Could be. The song's been reworked so many times.  I'm more interested in the aeroplane. ~swd
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« Reply #1636 on: September 04, 2015, 12:56:38 PM »

These videos are so informative and great Stephen!  Keep 'em coming!
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« Reply #1637 on: September 04, 2015, 04:18:30 PM »

Thanks for doing these Stephen. Us fans are lucky to have people such as yourself posting here!
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« Reply #1638 on: September 04, 2015, 05:29:54 PM »

Cabinessence has always been one of my most favourite Beach Boys songs.  Top 3 or 4 which rotate depending on the mood.  YOU have made it sound even better Stephen.  When I was out 'doing' the Olympics in 2010 I was invited to spend an hour at one of the Vancouver radio stations spinning what I considered to be my top 10 most IMPORTANT songs...and then I was to explain WHY I thought the way I did.  Cabinessence was #1.

Thanks for this. Cool Guy
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« Reply #1639 on: September 04, 2015, 06:23:41 PM »


Stephen - any chance that some of those photos are from your personal studio log? That would be fascinating to see!

COMMENT:  The studio log is just a bunch of dates, session details, and who was there doing what. ~swd

For some of us, that's the best part!   Grin
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« Reply #1640 on: September 05, 2015, 03:47:59 AM »

Amazing Stephen, we're so fortunate to have you here!
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« Reply #1641 on: September 05, 2015, 07:30:07 AM »

The 'Recording the Beach Boys part 1- Addendum' video was ace! You da' man Stephen! 3D
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« Reply #1642 on: September 05, 2015, 07:40:54 AM »

So, questions:

Does the master tape of San Miguel sound similar to the needle drop version here?      No. It has been mixed down several times. Funny you should ask this question because the Study-Video concerning San Miguel is all about differences in master mixes. Don't know exactly when, but look for a Study-Video on SM this winter.

[/size]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can't wait - always one of my favorites!
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« Reply #1643 on: September 05, 2015, 08:35:01 AM »

Mr. Stephen Desper, the Part 1 Addendum video is incredible!  A real eye-opener...or ear-opener...or whatever! 

Hearing the two rejected albums is quite a treat, although it reinforces the fact that the released song lineup of Sunflower turned out perfect.  It's great to hear earlier stages of this classic and it's clear to see (um, hear!) that you put an enormous amount of effort into achieving the highest possible quality of sound.

One specific question:  I noticed that "Lookin' at Tomorrow" on the second prototype doesn't have the phasing effect on the vocal.  Personally I think it sounds much better.  Do you recall any story behind what led to that vocal being altered in that way for the song's release on the SURF'S UP album? 
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« Reply #1644 on: September 05, 2015, 11:01:13 AM »

Your two Sunflower videos made for a great viewing/read. Thank you very much for taking the time to do these.
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« Reply #1645 on: September 05, 2015, 04:34:53 PM »

BTW, the first few links are dead.....sorry to not contribute something more substantive...
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« Reply #1646 on: September 05, 2015, 05:20:47 PM »

Just listened to The Contender Tracks video. Thanks again for all the hard work you and everyone else helping you have put into these videos, Stephen.
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« Reply #1647 on: September 05, 2015, 05:30:30 PM »

Thank you so much, Stephen!  It means a lot to me that you would take the time to put all of this together to give us fans such a gift.  However, I've noticed that the "Cool, Cool Water" link is no longer working...and that Study Video is my absolute favorite!  Do you happen to know when that will be up again?
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« Reply #1648 on: September 05, 2015, 06:55:11 PM »

A weekend treat, indeed.

Stephen, these are dream master classes from the man who created one of the most profoundly beautiful soundscapes in the history of popular music in Sunflower. Who would have dreamed we would have something like this, all those years ago, when I picked up Sunflower on a whim from the bins at E.J. Korvettes (because I was obsessed with playing the stereo single of Breakaway over and over again when I worked in a record department of a huge department store in upstate NY). I read the back cover, brought it home and put on the headphones, and was transported to an alternative timeline where I am now, and where I saw Brian and the Band down the block a few weeks ago, most likely for the last time.  A full circle experience (along with seeing Love and Mercy) - like many folks here, I spent my entire life listening to and loving his music like no other.

Here, in the future, some 45 years later, it is a privilege to be able to say to you:

Thank you.
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1649 on: September 06, 2015, 05:57:00 AM »

Mr. Stephen Desper, the Part 1 Addendum video is incredible!  A real eye-opener...or ear-opener...or whatever! 

Hearing the two rejected albums is quite a treat, although it reinforces the fact that the released song lineup of Sunflower turned out perfect.  It's great to hear earlier stages of this classic and it's clear to see (um, hear!) that you put an enormous amount of effort into achieving the highest possible quality of sound.

One specific question:  I noticed that "Lookin' at Tomorrow" on the second prototype doesn't have the phasing effect on the vocal.  Personally I think it sounds much better.  Do you recall any story behind what led to that vocal being altered in that way for the song's release on the SURF'S UP album? 
Comment:  Don't worry, your question about LAT is very much answered in Part two of the book. ~swd
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