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Author Topic: The Stephen Desper Thread  (Read 718576 times)
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« Reply #1600 on: April 18, 2015, 04:45:50 AM »

You're the best, Desper!
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« Reply #1601 on: April 18, 2015, 10:44:09 AM »

I need to set aside the time to watch this but I want to thank you and your partners in advance. I do have your book and spatializer device but having the audio/video to accompany the book is a fantastic way to present and appreciate the material.
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« Reply #1602 on: April 21, 2015, 07:13:11 AM »

COMMENT:

My thanks to all of you for your very kind remarks in response to the book . . .

 
          RECORDING THE BEACH BOYS – Part One

To Date 13,374 people have visited the website with 12,636 hits to the book since it was published on line ten days ago.

      http://swdstudyvideos.com

Good Listening,  ~Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1603 on: April 21, 2015, 01:15:14 PM »

Thank you for this great video! It's hard to believe that Sunflower isn't recognized as one of the greatest albums of all time...

It's incredible how much care and love went into the creation of this beautiful work!  Listening
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« Reply #1604 on: April 26, 2015, 02:16:04 PM »

Just got through the Sunflower. Eye- and ear-opening!Thanks very much for posting this! And I also agree with Radfahrer on this:

Quote
It's incredible how much care and love went into the creation of this beautiful work!


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« Reply #1605 on: May 13, 2015, 04:27:56 AM »

Hi Steve-o,

In your Sunflower video, on the track "Tears In The Morning" you write "Stereo tracking is required if the lead is to be moved dimensionally forward-of-centre" and the background vocals are "...recorder in layers with the harmonies blended in a submix and panned across the front panorama"

Were I to try this method myself, how should I go about it?

1) Record lead vocals with two condensor mics - setup in what configuration?
2) Record the background vocals with a single mic?
3) Lead vocal processing - panned hard left and right or some other configuration?
4 ) Background vocals - let's say I have 8 layers - panned across front panorama like this = 100%R, 75%R, 50%R 25%R, 25%L, 50%L, 75%L, 100%L. Is that right?

Many thanks,
Steve
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« Reply #1606 on: May 14, 2015, 09:46:34 AM »

Hi Steve-o,

In your Sunflower video, on the track "Tears In The Morning" you write "Stereo tracking is required if the lead is to be moved dimensionally forward-of-centre" and the background vocals are "...recorder in layers with the harmonies blended in a submix and panned across the front panorama"

Were I to try this method myself, how should I go about it?

1) Record lead vocals with two condensor mics - setup in what configuration?
2) Record the background vocals with a single mic?
3) Lead vocal processing - panned hard left and right or some other configuration?
4 ) Background vocals - let's say I have 8 layers - panned across front panorama like this = 100%R, 75%R, 50%R 25%R, 25%L, 50%L, 75%L, 100%L. Is that right?

Many thanks,
Steve

COMMENT:

It’s all relative. Forward of the center really means little, unless in contrast to a sound field that has been moved back. You know I’m a big fan of microphone arrays, which are natural-derived matrices, augmented by circuit-derived matrices. I have several patents on devices that use them in stereophonic production. Therefore, the answer to your question is a little more complex than you may wish to hear.  Nevertheless…

Record the lead vocal using a stereo microphone in X-Y configuration or use two mics each set in figure-8 configuration and positioned 90 degrees apart – one diaphragm pointed this way \ and the other diaphragm pointed this way / , both mics in the same physical point in space. The vocalist should be a foot or so in front of this microphone array. Panned left and right, but the image will be centered.

In addition and at the same time record the lead vocal using two PZM (Pressure Zone Microphones) pickups separated by a few feet and placed behind the vocalist. It is best to use an open vocal booth or place some baffles behind the vocalist with the PZM’s hanging on the baffles about even with the height of the vocalist.

Delay both PZM channels less then one millisecond. Then subtract the right channel from the left channel and take the resulting mono signal and add it from the left signal and subtract it to the right channel.

This will provide a contrast between the near field and far field recordings of the vocal itself. You will just have to experiment with the application of EQ to all this stuff and even experiment using dissimilar delays between the left and right back channels.

As to the background vocals, these can be any configuration, but to best move the vocal forward of center the BG’s may also be delayed with respect to the lead vocal. You just have to listen and make these judgments for yourself. Every situation is unique.  

Unfortunately there are no set rules. AND ALSO unfortunately you are missing one important piece of equipment for all this to mimic Tears In The Morning, and that is the matrix device itself.  Once the stereo forward array and stereo rearward array are introduced into the circuitry of the matrix, the resulting combination will congeal to give the operator the ability to exaggerate the differences generated between the two arrays and pull the image apart front to back, thus producing the difference needed to give the impression that the vocal is forward of center – when compared to simple L+R phantom center images.  But even without the matrix, using what is outlined above; you should be able to approach your desired goal.

To gain an understanding of how phantom imaging works, try this.  Using three speakers that are exactly the same (even unenclosed speakers will work) place them about three feet apart so that the two end speakers are six feet apart with the third speaker in the center. Now play a mono sound signal over the left and right speakers so that you create a phantom center image, which will sound as if the center speaker is functioning. Next take the same signal but only reproduce it over the center speaker. Obviously you listen to both situations from the same centered listening position. When comparing the two situations you will note they don’t sound the same whatever. Yes, both are in the center, but not the same. You will find out why it works better to have a real center speaker for dialog, such as in a movie. This is especially true if you sit off-center.

HISTORY LESSION:

When I first started working in Hollywood, it was in the Motion Picture business. I worked at MGM, Universal, Fox, Columbia (before Sony bought it), Paramount and Warner Brothers. I moved from studio to studio as the union jobs became available. It was quite an experience for a young lad from Florida.  

In those days and even today in some analog movie mixing theaters, there were four mixing consoles setup in front of the screen. Each console was dedicated to one of the elements of sound that make up a movie sound track. Each console had it’s own mixing engineer that specialized in his craft. You had a dialog mixer, sound effects mixer, music mixer, and swing mixer. The swing mixer was not an engineer with loose morals, rather he was called a swing mixer because his job was to pan each sound to one of the five behind-the-screen speakers so that it matched the position of that sound as it appeared on the screen. (As a pendulum swings back and forth, so the name “swing” was used. Today we might call this console a panning console, but back then it was the swing console.) Three consoles were placed side-by-side and the swing console was in front of the three in the center. So as an actor might walk from screen left to screen right, the swing mixer would move the sound from one speaker to the next as the actor’s image on the screen moved. Thus, the voice of the actor seemed to come from the image. Mind you, this was not panning from left to right, this was swing-panning from the left speaker to the mid-left speaker to the center speaker, to the mid-right speaker, and to the right speaker.

 I’m reviewing all this information because of a now obsolete control that was found on the swing-console called a “telescoping control.” What this control did was to move a mono sound so that it seemed to move forward and rearward or from the forefront of the screen to the background of the scene on the screen. It did this by taking a mono signal from the center speaker only, then to the ML and MR speakers (as a phantom image) and on to the L and R speakers (as a phantom image). So just as you heard from the experiment above, as you moved the control the sound would change in character and sounded as if it was going back away from the listener. By way of example, suppose a cowboy was riding from, or talking while riding from, the foreground back into the hills of the background. As he rode away, the swing-mixer would rotate the control, thus making the sound go from a real image to a phantom image, and just as you heard in your experiment, the image you heard remained centered, but seemed to go back with the cowboy.  This control has long since disappeared from the movie scene along with tracking the sound of the actors on the screen as they moved on the screen. Too bad. It was certainly an interesting sound effect. Some older consoles still in use today feature both a panning control (L/R) and a telescope control (F/B), but it is never used.  

When the Dolby standards were adopted by the movie industry, the five behind-the-screen speakers were reduced to three; center, left and right. Dialog was always centered and did not follow screen action. Music was left-center-right, and surround was introduced. A lot of this change had to do with the introduction of the VCR and home movie distribution where five front speakers were too many and not needed and the dialog sounds had to be stable. So the movie standards were changed to accommodate the home movie distribution market. A second reason for the change was that people who sat down front but on the side of a movie theater had a hard time hearing dialog if the actor was speaking from the far end of the screen, as you can imagine. The theater owners also wanted a change so as to increase audience size without complaints.  

Unfortunately you can only hear the old swing-sound if a theater in a large city plays one of the old Todd-AO movies like “Oklahoma!", "South Pacific", "Around the World in 80 Days", "West Side Story", "Porgy and Bess", "The Alamo", "The Sound of Music”, and the last of these “Cleopatra” with Elizabeth Taylor. If you hear these old movies on a DVD, usually the swing-stereo is reduced to the Dolby standard so you’ve got to go to a theater to hear these movies as they were originally recorded. However once in a while a DVD is issued as a special edition of one of these classic movies and in that case the swing-stereo is preserved as best as it can using our current configuration of three front speakers.

Good luck on your endeavors to bring the vocal forward. Alternately you could add some presence EQ to the Lead Vocal while removing presence from the Background Vocals. This may give the lead vocal the outstanding difference you are looking for, but no guarantees. Add presence EQ in the 5k area to the lead and remove some presence in the 3k area to the BGs.

Here are two links that my spark your interest:

Signal Processing with EQ >>> http://www.recordinginstitute.com/da154/ARP/chap3Sig/asp3.html

History of Todd-AO studios >>> http://in70mm.com/newsletter/2005/70/leimeter/index.htm

History of Film Mixing (note the projected VU meters under the screen) >>> http://www.editorsguild.com/v2/magazine/Newsletter/JanFeb04/janfeb04_mixing_console.html

Hope this helps with Good Listening,
 ~Stephen W. Desper  

« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 09:53:26 AM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
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« Reply #1607 on: May 15, 2015, 03:02:20 AM »

That’s fascinating.  I like complex answers, so I really appreciate the reply.

I have a limited set of microphones – three condensors and a few SM58 / SM57s. Would the 57s be an adequate replacement for the PZM mics?

One thing I do have is space. I have a large room in a converted Victorian warehouse – quite reflective but there are some baffled wooden partitions in there.

I’ll definitely try out your methods and send you the results.

I’m also going to try re-amping my guitars. One benefit of using amp simulators on DAW software is that it keeps the dry direct signal.
 
Thanks for the “telescope control” story. I never imagined that you could move sound around in two dimensions like that.  I’ll have to try it myself at some point.
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« Reply #1608 on: May 20, 2015, 01:37:56 PM »

That’s fascinating.  I like complex answers, so I really appreciate the reply.

I have a limited set of microphones – three condensors and a few SM58 / SM57s. Would the 57s be an adequate replacement for the PZM mics?

One thing I do have is space. I have a large room in a converted Victorian warehouse – quite reflective but there are some baffled wooden partitions in there.

I’ll definitely try out your methods and send you the results.

I’m also going to try re-amping my guitars. One benefit of using amp simulators on DAW software is that it keeps the dry direct signal.
 
Thanks for the “telescope control” story. I never imagined that you could move sound around in two dimensions like that.  I’ll have to try it myself at some point.


COMMENT:

I was going to ask you to just call me, but I see that you are in my favorite country, England. So a phone discussion may not be the best solution to communicating with you and advising you about how to proceed. But to answer your question, the SM57 or any of the Shure Microphones will work. But I will advise you to look at the following do-it-yourself PZM or boundary microphone techniques. Since you are in a reverberant room, I would consider building a pair of PZM's. Look over the application notes from Crown. You will soon see how I used them and why you should invest in and make a pair for yourself.   

Application of PZM's  (excellent) >>> http://www.crownaudio.com/media/pdf/mics/127089.pdf

Great Video on Building your own PZM (demo at end) >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjZ983CsqPI

You and every engineer who is reading this should tag this link or place it in your "favorites." It is a catalog of hundreds of quality microphones, vintage and new, and a little demo of their sound with a common voice (for comparison).  Scroll to the Crown PZM 30-D  or  Crown SASS-P Mk II.  This site has so many links of interest, plan to spend hours here if you like vintage stuff.

Microphone Catalog >>>  http://www.coutant.org/contents.html

Good Listening,
  ~Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1609 on: May 21, 2015, 06:21:34 AM »

Thanks for the links Steve.

Perhaps we could chat over Skype (or some similar software)? Maybe we could go over these things in more detail without boring the other folks here too much. Personal Message me if so.

Thanks,
Steve
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« Reply #1610 on: May 27, 2015, 01:10:08 PM »

Thanks for the links Steve.

Perhaps we could chat over Skype (or some similar software)? Maybe we could go over these things in more detail without boring the other folks here too much. Personal Message me if so.

Thanks,
Steve

Fascinating questions and responses as usual. I've never enjoyed reading anything online as much as these posts. Please don't feel guilty about "hogging" space! 

I'm dying to try out stereophonic recording sometime in the style of Steve Desper. Right now I record my compositions with an iPad and one microphone.  Since I use one input at a time, I leave my mixes in mono which is preferable as I understand it. While well recorded stereo tends to sound better, I have learned to enjoy both the "punch" and "muddiness" mono provides. 

Also Mr. Desper, I have picked up original Artisan pressings of Sunflower and Surf's Up.  My home rig is pretty humble compared to what you have, but I've never been so enveloped with sound before. Just closing my eyes made me feel like the music was all around me especially when there were tons of background vocals.  After reading about your stereo techniques, I have an idea as to how you were able to create that 360 sound (even without the matrix you invented). "Slip on Through" sounds amazing on vinyl and it was tear inducing hearing Dennis so in-your-face and full of emotion and angst. While it comes through over ear buds on the digital versions, listening over speakers took it to another level.  Ironically, I listened to Surf's Up about a month before the death of Jack Rieley and was so entranced with the organs over loud speakers and his haunting voice.  I love the way the organ sounds and it definitely is amazing and powerful over speakers and obviously so well recorded.

I've never been so fascinated with something; I think the combination of my love for music and science has something to do with it.  Anyways, thanks for all the videos, history lessons, and "demonstrations" throughout the years although I'm a young new fan. I have enjoyed re-reading your old post a few times a year to learn some tricks that I hope to use some day in the future.

PS: I think you're singing on "Do it Again." I have a feeling that the guys had such a good time recording that and wanted to include you on it.  Love this picture that Brian posted several months ago!

Lots of good vibrations from one Southerner to another (I'm from Georgia). 

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« Reply #1611 on: May 29, 2015, 11:09:09 AM »

As a long time fan (mid 60's) I just have to thank God (or whoever) that I am alive and living now so I get to hear all of this wonderful music!!!! Always loved Sunflower!!! Thank you so much Mr Desper for being a part of that - what should I call it - piece of life's happiness...  Hats off!!    Smiley
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« Reply #1612 on: July 15, 2015, 03:31:41 PM »

Thanks for the links Steve.

Perhaps we could chat over Skype (or some similar software)? Maybe we could go over these things in more detail without boring the other folks here too much. Personal Message me if so.

Thanks,
Steve

Fascinating questions and responses as usual. I've never enjoyed reading anything online as much as these posts. Please don't feel guilty about "hogging" space! 

I'm dying to try out stereophonic recording sometime in the style of Steve Desper. Right now I record my compositions with an iPad and one microphone.  Since I use one input at a time, I leave my mixes in mono which is preferable as I understand it. While well recorded stereo tends to sound better, I have learned to enjoy both the "punch" and "muddiness" mono provides. 

Also Mr. Desper, I have picked up original Artisan pressings of Sunflower and Surf's Up.  My home rig is pretty humble compared to what you have, but I've never been so enveloped with sound before. Just closing my eyes made me feel like the music was all around me especially when there were tons of background vocals.  After reading about your stereo techniques, I have an idea as to how you were able to create that 360 sound (even without the matrix you invented). "Slip on Through" sounds amazing on vinyl and it was tear inducing hearing Dennis so in-your-face and full of emotion and angst. While it comes through over ear buds on the digital versions, listening over speakers took it to another level.  Ironically, I listened to Surf's Up about a month before the death of Jack Rieley and was so entranced with the organs over loud speakers and his haunting voice.  I love the way the organ sounds and it definitely is amazing and powerful over speakers and obviously so well recorded.

I've never been so fascinated with something; I think the combination of my love for music and science has something to do with it.  Anyways, thanks for all the videos, history lessons, and "demonstrations" throughout the years although I'm a young new fan. I have enjoyed re-reading your old post a few times a year to learn some tricks that I hope to use some day in the future.

PS: I think you're singing on "Do it Again." I have a feeling that the guys had such a good time recording that and wanted to include you on it.  Love this picture that Brian posted several months ago!

Lots of good vibrations from one Southerner to another (I'm from Georgia). 



COMMENT: 
This photo was taken at Capital Towers.  Looks like Studio 3, but not certain. Just watching the two brothers discussing a blend. Sometimes it's best to let the talent work it out and only monitor the situation to keep them out of engineering trouble. That is, let the creation unfold within the framework of physics. ~swd

My website is currently off-line. Sorry about that. We are preparing for the next issue of "The Addendum to part one." This should be available within a week or so. You will like it!
  ~swd
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« Reply #1613 on: July 27, 2015, 07:48:12 AM »

Hi Steve! Any word on the addendum! Really looking forward to reading it!
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« Reply #1614 on: July 28, 2015, 07:56:38 AM »

Hi Steve! Any word on the addendum! Really looking forward to reading it!

COMMENT:  As of this date Professor Conner has sent me the first draft of the addendum. It looks great. I made some final edits and now those are being changed in the file. Once Mike Conner has completed those requests, the studio-video should be placed on my website and the website will up again for the duration of the summer.

Meanwhile, I'm putting finishing touches of the more detailed second part that covers the recording of the Surf's Up album and other aspects of interest. I look to have that on my website in the fall. It has more photos in it and those take time to get right in the rendering. But we are making progress.

Thanks for asking.
  ~swd
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« Reply #1615 on: August 06, 2015, 03:39:14 AM »

Hi Steve! Any word on the addendum! Really looking forward to reading it!

COMMENT:  As of this date Professor Conner has sent me the first draft of the addendum. It looks great. I made some final edits and now those are being changed in the file. Once Mike Conner has completed those requests, the studio-video should be placed on my website and the website will up again for the duration of the summer.

Meanwhile, I'm putting finishing touches of the more detailed second part that covers the recording of the Surf's Up album and other aspects of interest. I look to have that on my website in the fall. It has more photos in it and those take time to get right in the rendering. But we are making progress.

Thanks for asking.
  ~swd

Stephen - any chance that some of those photos are from your personal studio log? That would be fascinating to see!
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« Reply #1616 on: August 06, 2015, 09:12:41 AM »

Hi Stephen, I have a quick question regarding the single "I Can Hear Music/All I Want To Do". I just received the Japanese US Single Collection box and noticed that these two songs are in mono. Are both of these tunes dedicated mono mixes for the 45 or are they fold downs from stereo? Thank you!
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« Reply #1617 on: August 08, 2015, 12:57:49 PM »


Stephen - any chance that some of those photos are from your personal studio log? That would be fascinating to see!

COMMENT:  The studio log is just a bunch of dates, session details, and who was there doing what. Maybe some day I'll copy it and post on my website. It is interesting to look back and see how busy those times were.  I was hoping to have the addendum on line this weekend, but alas, Mike Conner is having trouble with the rendering. The study-video is so long (almost two hours) we are pushing the limits of the software. Again the last rendering had problems which are now being addressed. It takes all night to render these study-videos and when long like this one, there is a greater chance for some little bit or byte to fail and a word falls out or music doesn't start on time, or a photo is in the wrong place. But we preserver and eventually will get a good take.  ~swd
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« Reply #1618 on: August 08, 2015, 01:02:49 PM »

Hi Stephen, I have a quick question regarding the single "I Can Hear Music/All I Want To Do". I just received the Japanese US Single Collection box and noticed that these two songs are in mono. Are both of these tunes dedicated mono mixes for the 45 or are they fold downs from stereo? Thank you!

COMMENT: I don't know what the Japanese engineers are using. I would guess it is a folddown to mono, but I recall mono dedicated mixes being made. However those masters, if they survive at all, would be such an expense to copy, digitize, and get to the Japanese, 95% sure you are hearing a folddown
. ~swd
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« Reply #1619 on: August 28, 2015, 11:33:50 AM »

THE CONTENDER SONGS

COMMENT:

What are The Contender Songs?

In Recording The Beach Boys part one on pages 59 to 72, I detail my experiences with respect to the so-called alternate Sunflower albums. From the book:


NOTE:  The two “rejected reference LP acetate” copies are provided for educational evaluation through playback, with matrix applied, as an addendum to Recording The Beach Boys – Part One. Please use the button labeled “RTBB-1 Addendum One” to view a Study-Video that provides some engineering insight into the production of these reference LPs and their rejected songs.  Both versions that you will hear in the addendum were mastered at Artisan Sound Recorders by Bob MacLeod with Carl Wilson and myself overseeing each mastering session.

Now up on my website is the Addendum to part one that includes (1) comments on each Contender Song and it’s “re-mastering” via the matrix, and (2) playback of both Sunflower reference LP’s that went to the record company(s), but were rejected. I hope this puts to rest all the past speculation (some presented as fact) on the evolvement of the final Sunflower play list.

Please thank Professor Mike Conner for all his time and creative key punching to bring to the study-video format; The Addendum to Part One. 

Appreciate any comments you may leave here and I would especially like to hear of your listening experiences, in particular those who have their computers connected to a good sound system or stereo system.  I’m curious to hear if your perception of the sound was different than you were use to hearing. I would also some feedback about the presentation, especially the book part of part one, and if it was reasonably convenient to manipulate?

Recording The Beach Boys,  part one – Addendum; with ten Contender Songs is available at the push of a button on my website.  The Contender Songs are Susie Cincinnati, Good Time, When Girls Get Together, Lady, Loop De Loop, Carnival, I Just Got My Pay, San Miguel, H.E.L.P. Is On the Way, Big Sur


http://swdstudyvideos.com


You will find that it is all Good Listening,  ~Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1620 on: August 28, 2015, 11:54:36 AM »

Yessss! Awesome! Been waiting for this!

I shall listen on my Monitor Audio Bronze speakers connected to my Nad amplifier going through my M-Audio 2496 soundcard whilst drinking beer. All strictly mid-range equipment. Serious.
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« Reply #1621 on: August 28, 2015, 02:21:50 PM »

thank you, enjoying it now.....
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« Reply #1622 on: August 28, 2015, 04:15:49 PM »

god bless you. mr desper! this is so great! where can i find more info on this way more produced tears in the morning version on your acetate?
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1623 on: August 28, 2015, 05:34:58 PM »

god bless you. mr desper! this is so great! where can i find more info on this way more produced tears in the morning version on your acetate?

COMMENT:  Thanks!  TITM is covered in PART ONE of Recording The Beach Boys.   ~swd
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Mendota Heights
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« Reply #1624 on: August 29, 2015, 12:17:14 AM »

Thanks Desper for your hard and invaluable work!
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I have been dubbed Mr. Pet Sounds and Mr. Country Love by polite and honored board member Smile Brian. I hope I live up to those esteemed titles.
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