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Author Topic: The Stephen Desper Thread  (Read 718496 times)
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« Reply #1525 on: September 19, 2013, 07:49:59 PM »

As kids, a friend and I used to draw the Dolby logo and praise "Pro-Logic". You're right about how his work has permeated so many things related to sound. Even my cell phone has Dolby settings.

On the subject of noise reduction, I used to use it to reduce hiss when I made mix tapes but later decided it was cutting out too many frequencies... Of course that was for a consumer tape deck. I'd love to read more about your views on NR when recording.
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« Reply #1526 on: October 27, 2013, 01:40:27 AM »

« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 08:40:32 PM by zatch » Logged
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« Reply #1527 on: November 30, 2013, 08:38:32 AM »

Mr. Desper,

As someone who appreciates your work (especially the technical innovation and non-traditional psychoacoustic approach), I've been trying to replicate the 360Surround effect so I can "unlock" Sunflower and finally hear it as it was intended.

I think I might be close, because the percussion (bongos?) in "It's About Time" just blew my mind. 

It seems like they're continuously panning.  On my non-ideal 2.1 setup, they move to the very extreme L/R, but on my headphones, they appear to go move all the way to behind my ears (like 15 degrees or so.)  Additionally, some of it sounds incredibly deliberate, as if it's chasing the other parts around for either sonic effect or to make room in the soundstage (the guitar in the "I'm singing in my heart..." section is the most obvious example.)

Am I on the right track?  I'm afraid this might be covered in your book, so I understand if you can't give details, but since I haven't been able to get even a used copy, I'd really appreciate a gut check on my tweaking so far. 

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide and for being such an amazing resource.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2013, 08:51:18 AM by micromoog » Logged
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« Reply #1528 on: December 04, 2013, 02:11:36 PM »

Mr. Desper,

As someone who appreciates your work (especially the technical innovation and non-traditional psychoacoustic approach), I've been trying to replicate the 360Surround effect so I can "unlock" Sunflower and finally hear it as it was intended.

I think I might be close, because the percussion (bongos?) in "It's About Time" just blew my mind. 

It seems like they're continuously panning.  On my non-ideal 2.1 setup, they move to the very extreme L/R, but on my headphones, they appear to go move all the way to behind my ears (like 15 degrees or so.)  Additionally, some of it sounds incredibly deliberate, as if it's chasing the other parts around for either sonic effect or to make room in the soundstage (the guitar in the "I'm singing in my heart..." section is the most obvious example.)

Am I on the right track?  I'm afraid this might be covered in your book, so I understand if you can't give details, but since I haven't been able to get even a used copy, I'd really appreciate a gut check on my tweaking so far. 

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide and for being such an amazing resource.

COMMENT:  Why don't you just wait a month or so until the study-video of Sunflower is available. That way you will have everything you are now trying to accomplish.

In the meantime, checkout some of the other songs at my website,  http://swdstudyvideos.com.

When you hear the Recording The Beach Boys -Part One study-video all your questions will be answered or you will have more. At any rate, please wait on me and my team to get the first part of this book published.  And by the way, the second part is coming right along.
 

~swd
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« Reply #1529 on: December 04, 2013, 04:33:14 PM »

COMMENT:  Why don't you just wait a month or so until the study-video of Sunflower is available.

I didn't realize they were that close to release!

I'm actually very familiar with your study videos (they inspired this kind of tweaking and experimenting), so I'm really looking forward to this.

Thanks again.
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« Reply #1530 on: December 05, 2013, 01:08:58 PM »

COMMENT:  Why don't you just wait a month or so until the study-video of Sunflower is available.

I didn't realize they were that close to release!

I'm actually very familiar with your study videos (they inspired this kind of tweaking and experimenting), so I'm really looking forward to this.

Thanks again.

COMMENT:   I posted this at Steve Hoffman's webpage and I thought it may be of interest to you since it is on the same topic.

If you define "stereo" as any two correlated tracks in which there is a difference between the tracks, then duophonic is stereo just as much as it would be stereo if the left side is reproducing Wendy in D minor while the right side is reproducing Beethoven's Symphony #9 in D minor, since the correlation would be the performance key. I can only think up one way this would be considered stereo. That is, if this was a movie sound track or radio drama that called for a radio playing The Beach Boy's Wendy on one side of the stage while the symphony is heard through an open window on the right side of the stage. If this were a stereo-movie-sound-track it would make sense, otherwise not.
 
Next you can define stereo with amplitude changes (amplitude correlated stereo). Now all you need is a piano on the right side and a guitar on the left side -- playing the same song -- to be stereo.  If both instruments are acoustically isolated one from each other, this would be amplitude stereo. A very common method of obtaining stereo that can be expanded to include 24 mono tracks all panned across the stereo sound stage. In either example each track has its own time domain or is “a point source identity” in that there is no time correlation between the acoustic identity of any track or instrument, with the exception of the song’s meter. Amplitude correlated stereo produces directional changes. That is, stereo is heard from various directions.
 
Or you can define stereo with phase changes (phase correlated stereo). In this example both the piano and guitar share the same acoustic time domain. That common staging area is picked up by two or more spaced microphones, each far enough back from the two instruments so as to pick up the phase correlation of both instruments. Because of the Precedence Effect the piano is still on the right side and the guitar is still on the left side, but also with the direct sound is the sound of the other instrument, time shifted in frequency sensitive phase correlation.  Together, both of these microphone signals combine to provide a phase-correlated stereo that produces dimensional changes.  The dimensional impression is supplied as the left and right signals are de-correlated, with respect to frequency, by the human brain.
 
There is another way to mic our two instruments. That is, each instrument can be captured using a stereo microphone array for each instrument.  After each instrument is recorded in stereo they can be combined so that one is more to the left and the other is more to the right, say Left to Center for the piano and Right to Center for the guitar.  That is more dimensional than amplitude stereo and still retains the directional aspect.
 
You could also pan both instruments so that one is on top of the other. This will maintain the dimensional components without the directional aspect.
 
You can also combine a mono track of each instrument with the stereo tracks of each instrument and also the stereo tracks of both instruments in such a way so as to make one instrument seem as if forward to the other instrument, such as the guitar being forward of the piano. By using this combination method, and if you know what you’re doing, you can produce a depth to your mix. You can place one voice behind another, or even whole violin sections in front of the woodwinds, for example in a symphonic setting.
 
You may experience all three D’s by using microphones in arrays when recording. Here is the methodology for setting up an array that will demo what the hell I’m talking about. If you have an analog or virtual console you should be able to set this up.
 
You will need an acoustic piano as the sound source – or any instrument that produces a large propagation field, i.e., produces the sound it makes over a large physical area, such as a piano harp.
 
You will need two microphones of the same make and model. You will also need two more microphones that are similar to the first two.
 
Two identical mics will be left and right
 
The other two mics will be front and back.
 
Place the mics apart in a circle of about three feet diameter, that is Left is left @ 9 o'clock, Right is right @ 3 o'clock, Center is forward and between the L&R mics @ 12 o'clock, and Rear is to the behind of the L&R mics @ 6 o'clock.
 
Now input the left and right mics into two separate channels – Left and Right.
 
Input the Center microphone into a separate channel.
 
Input the Rear microphone into two channels. Both channels will get the same signal. (use a "Y" if necessary)
 
So now you should have five input channels in use by four microphones:  Here is the way you set this up.
 
Channel One:  (left)  Set the pan control to far left.  Set Polarity to plus.
 
Channel Two:  (right)  Set the pan control to the far right.  Set Polarity to plus
 
Channel Three  (center)  Set the pan control to center.  Set Polarity to plus
 
Channel Four  (½ rear)  Set the pan control to far left. Set Polarity to plus.
 
Channel Five  (½ rear)  Set the pan control to far right.  Set Polarity to minus.
Thus the rear channel is added to the left and subtracted from the right.  Channels 4 & 5 should be kept equal.
 
Bring up the left and right channels. You will hear the piano in stereo.
Bringing up the center channel will help to keep the bass in the center for compatibility issues. You may wish to remove all the top frequencies from this signal if you only want to make certain the bass stays centered.
 
Now bring up the rear by increasing both channels 4 and 5 with equal increments.  By itself this will give you a so-called out-of-phase signal, but when combined with the left and right signals – all channels combine to give your brain a little more spatial information so that it overcomes the incompatibility between stereo reproduction (over speakers) and binaural hearing (of your human hearing mechanism).
 
You will not need much of the rear channel to make the piano seem to leap out at you. As you advance the rear controls the two speakers will seem to disappear as the piano moves out into your room and it will seem as if you can just “fall” into the piano or piano sound – as if the piano is no longer being heard between the two speakers. As you approach the two speakers of your stereo system it will seem as if you are walking up to the piano – as the perspective will be following a more natural model. 
 
The difference between this array approach to microphone setup and the conventional way is easily heard. In stereo the piano sounds as if you are hearing it through an open doorway. With this approach the piano will sound as if you removed the walls and the doorway, or it will sound as if you walked through the open door and into the room where the piano is being played.
 
This is a very basic outline of how dimension, direction and depth can be captured and reproduced over any stereo system (still maintaining mono-compatibility).  Given a large number of open tracks, re-amping techniques, and the use of various 4, 5, and 6 microphone arrays, it is certainly possible to do a lot more with stereo then we do today.  That is why, when W7 engineers turned down the chance to release most of what I recorded using a full-stereo compliment of matrix techniques, in exchange for a regular stereo release, I was so discouraged. Here was a change for a major group to expand their product into the 21st century of “surround-type” sound using only two channels and they threw it away.  The Beach Boys were way ahead of their time in the studio, but W7 wanted to stay with the old tried and true methods, so everyone lost.
 
The study-videos on my website are an attempt to right this wrong for the fans.
 
Good Listening,
  ~Stephen W. Desper

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« Reply #1531 on: December 08, 2013, 08:16:43 AM »


COMMENT:

The entertainment industry has lost a great man.

Ray Dolby is a personal hero.

Last week, Ray passed away at 80, two years into retirement.

Early in his career, Ray helped invent the videotape recorder.

He went on to invent Dolby Noise Reduction in 1965 (although he didn't file the patent until 1969!)

He brought the sound industry, going many wrong directions, into focus with Surround Sound 5.1, 6.1, and 7.1 -- the standards by which we all hear and enjoy movies today.

A billionaire American engineer and inventor.

CNET said of him, "Ray Dolby changed the way we hear sound."

The company never stopped innovating, and while Dolby Labs isn't a tech giant like Sony or Apple, the wide scale adoption of Dolby technology has changed the way almost everyone listens to music or movies

You see, Ray never tried to build a "Dolby Radio" or "Dolby Receiver".

Instead, he licensed his technology widely. This turned his invention into a true industry standard, a household name.

In the analog world of my time there were several Dolby schemes being marketed. I liked one and used it, but Alan liked another type of DNR, and recorded using it. So all the Dolby channels had to be changed for Alan's productions. Sixteen channels of Dolby Noise Reduction units to switch, test, and align. But, it was Dolby or noise.

Thank you, Ray Dolby, for touching all our lives in a positive way and truly making possible

Good Listening !
  ~Stephen W. Desper


The New York Times on Ray Dolby >>>
 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/13/business/ray-dolby-who-put-moviegoers-in-the-middle-is-dead-at-80.html?_r=0


 



Thanks for letting us know the sad news, and especially thanks for the comments, Steve! Obviously we all owe Mr. Dolby a huge debt.
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1532 on: January 16, 2014, 03:38:14 AM »





COMMENT:

Study-Videos can now be viewed via this link:

        http://swdstudyvideos.com

Good Listening,
 ~Stephen W. Desper
 





« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 03:40:15 AM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
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« Reply #1533 on: January 16, 2014, 06:58:38 AM »

Much easier to  navigate and access. Thank you, once again, for providing these study videos.
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« Reply #1534 on: February 01, 2014, 10:31:25 PM »

I've watched all of these videos, and am very excited for the study videos for Sunflower and Surf's Up (especially some info on All I Wanna Do...).

Thank you for taking to time to make them!
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« Reply #1535 on: March 12, 2014, 01:01:54 PM »

I've watched all of these videos, and am very excited for the study videos for Sunflower and Surf's Up (especially some info on All I Wanna Do...).

Thank you for taking to time to make them!

I second these sentiments! Thank you Stephen for all your work on these  - much appreciated!
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #1536 on: June 07, 2014, 08:27:24 AM »

COMMENT:   REPEATING YOUTUBE SELECTIONS

How many times have you wanted to hear a Beach Boy song over and over? With this Application, you can.

How to repeat any YouTube video:

Go to the address bar and find the address . . .

typical example (good vibs):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eab_beh07HU

INSERT "repeat" right after "youtube" and before the ".com"

So now it reads:  https://www.youtuberepeat.com/watch?v=Eab_beh07HU

Press "enter"

Your selection will be diverted to the Listen On Repeat application and will now repeat over-and-over-and-over AND WITHOUT COMMERCIALS


Good Listening, Good Listening, Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper


P.S.  To repeat using VIMEO, insert "repeat" after Vimeo in the address bar and click "enter."
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« Reply #1537 on: June 07, 2014, 10:38:11 AM »

COMMENT:   REPEATING YOUTUBE SELECTIONS

How many times have you wanted to hear a Beach Boy song over and over? With this Application, you can.

How to repeat any YouTube video:

Go to the address bar and find the address . . .

typical example (good vibs):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eab_beh07HU

INSERT "repeat" right after "youtube" and before the ".com"

So now it reads:  https://www.youtuberepeat.com/watch?v=Eab_beh07HU

Press "enter"

Your selection will be diverted to the Listen On Repeat application and will now repeat over-and-over-and-over AND WITHOUT COMMERCIALS


Good Listening, Good Listening, Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper


P.S.  To repeat using VIMEO, insert "repeat" after Vimeo in the address bar and click "enter."

Awesome tip, Stephen. Hope to hear some new Beach Boys mixes of yours soon.
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« Reply #1538 on: June 15, 2014, 09:29:52 AM »

Thank you for the tip!
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« Reply #1539 on: July 04, 2014, 10:46:52 PM »

When can we expect to see the Sunflower making-of videos? I'm super excited for it.
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« Reply #1540 on: July 25, 2014, 06:54:17 PM »

When can we expect to see the Sunflower making-of videos? I'm super excited for it.

I feel a bit like Oliver Twist asking this question given the great stuff that's already up on the tutorial website - ("Please Sir, can I have some more?) - but am also wondering if there's any news to at hand re the ongoing construction of the Making of... tutorials? (Understanding it's a voluntary labour of love for Stephen and Will C, no pressure or obligation intended)
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« Reply #1541 on: August 20, 2014, 12:27:10 AM »

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« Reply #1542 on: September 12, 2014, 07:38:01 AM »

Hey Stephen, have a question for you. On "Friends" (the song), if you were involved, any idea what produced the fast vibrato sound on the lead guitar part in the bridge? It sounds too precise and unnatural to be normal hand vibrato and sounds like it could be a pedal but I can't be sure.

COMMENT:  Guitar sent to rotating (fast setting) Leslie #122 Organ Speaker. Miked in mono using one microphone placed near the top rotating horn with applied high-pass filter.

DEMO #1 >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AmZlAeFyj0

DEMO #2 >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkgDRPgY27E

HISTORY OF THE LESLIE ORGAN SPEAKER >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quE0ElIAwZE

~swd

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« Reply #1543 on: September 12, 2014, 08:36:05 AM »

Very cool videos, thanks Stephen!
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« Reply #1544 on: September 12, 2014, 08:45:28 AM »

Nice!

What are your thoughts on the "standard" multiple mic'ing of Leslies, some version of two mics in stereo on the rotating horn and one or two on the lower speaker? For Hammond or guitar, specifically.

I mention that because of the "Friends" track only being mic'ed in mono, and the fact that many if not all of my favorite Hammond-Leslie recordings were done in mono, up to the 70's. I just wonder if, apart from the cool stereo/Doppler effect of two mics in stereo on the horn panned L-R, I don't know how much it adds to the tone to have upwards of four mics on a Leslie that an old Jimmy Smith recording on Blue Note didn't already capture in 1959 with one.
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« Reply #1545 on: September 12, 2014, 03:15:09 PM »

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« Reply #1546 on: September 13, 2014, 03:33:05 PM »

Nice!

What are your thoughts on the "standard" multiple mic'ing of Leslies, some version of two mics in stereo on the rotating horn and one or two on the lower speaker? For Hammond or guitar, specifically.

I mention that because of the "Friends" track only being mic'ed in mono, and the fact that many if not all of my favorite Hammond-Leslie recordings were done in mono, up to the 70's. I just wonder if, apart from the cool stereo/Doppler effect of two mics in stereo on the horn panned L-R, I don't know how much it adds to the tone to have upwards of four mics on a Leslie that an old Jimmy Smith recording on Blue Note didn't already capture in 1959 with one.

COMMENT:   Here’s my experience with miking the Leslie.

First and foremost, the Leslie speaker is designed to enhance a Hammond electric organ as perceived by a live human being in a surrounding acoustic space. What the Leslie adds is called tremolo, from the pipe organ stop called Tremulant, in use in pipe organs since the 16th century. The Tremulant effect in a pipe organ is produced by slightly varying the wind pressure at the pipe, causing it to rise and fall around its resonate frequency. Here is an example to hear >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xgj05Atval8.  You will note that although this sounds like a Leslie rotating speaker, it is sound produced from stationary pipes.

Leslie realized that the Hammond electric organ lacked a true tremolo effect as it’s parent the pipe organ, so he designed one using rotating speakers that would give a tremolo sound by way of the Doppler effect. The Doppler effect has two qualities, spatial shift and spectral shift.  

In mono you are not going to hear the spatial aspect of the Doppler effect. You will only hear the tremolo effect, or the rising and falling of the sound as the horn moves toward or away from the microphone. You can experiment with several mics placed around the horn’s rotation to give several rises and falls per rotation. In the case of Carl’s guitar in the Friends bridge, the most tremolo effect was produced by the top rotating horn and not much from the bottom bass speaker. So only the top is miked and filtered to reduce rumble from the woofer and “cut” through the mix.

In stereo you can take advantage of the rotational aspect of the Leslie and capture the spatial effect also. This can cause the sound to move left to right with stereo close-up miking, or to sound larger with the stereo mics moved forward and out from the Leslie. When I miked in stereo I used two up top and two below displaced by 90 degrees – 12 o’clock top left, 3 o’clock bottom right, 6 o’clock top right, 9 o’clock bottom left. Other panning configurations should be tried.

When I miked the Leslie for use with the matrix, this brings into play the X/Y coordinates. Usually that would mean backing off the mics to a six foot (or so) diameter (with the Leslie at the center) and each mic at 90 degrees to make, left – center – right – back.

You can also do this (in a rudimental way) by using your console and four mics connected as left, right, center, and (left minus right) at the virtual back to get the sound to swirl around your head in playback.

While we’re on the subject, you can also get a great distorted guitar sound from a tube amplifier Leslie by removing one of the output tubes. This will cause the one operating tube to go into distortion without being overly loud. It’s a type of fuzz sound. Another type of distortion is produced by placing a Variac transformer on the amp to reduce its supply voltage. Also causing the B+ voltage to over-bias the tubes and cause distortion at lower levels.  Good for recording electric guitars, but not very loud.

I once went to a floorshow type restaurant where the main act was a jazz organist playing the Hammond B3 – and he was great!  The thing was . . . he had six Leslie’s on the stage – Wow what a sound !!! I’ll never forget it.

~swd
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« Reply #1547 on: September 13, 2014, 04:32:59 PM »

COMMENT:  There are undoubtedly some photos of the traveling stage “White Leslie” I designed for use by The Beach Boys on tour. During one of the many production meetings prior to tours the subject came up about what to do with transporting the Leslie for Bruce’s organ. Renting one from a local organ shop was not always the best approach as sometimes the rotors would not work or the speaker was crap. Building a traveling case for one of these monsters was not the best idea since it would become the size of a refrigerator by the time you padded the cabinet. I wanted to build a traveling “Leslie” and so they gave me the money for the project. In short, the Leslie box dimensions were used, but the speaker case was thee travel case and built to spec by Anvil Case Co. It used thicker wood than a standard travel case, but still had all the edge and corner rigging, as does a rock travel case. Set up time was quick. The inside used motors to run the rotating horns but the speaker itself was a JBL horn mid-range driven by a 150 watt solid-state amp. The woofer used a PA type JBL 12 inch that was very efficient and driven by another 150 watt amp. This was a Leslie on steroids. The idea was that it could be as loud as the guitar amps on stage for a better blend. It sounded OK but gads was that thing loud! You had to put it further away from the organ keyboard or else all you could hear was the organ. It was used until the electronic version of the Leslie (with no moving parts) came along. Then it was scrapped and replaced with the mimic version – which was more practical for touring.   ~swd
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« Reply #1548 on: September 20, 2014, 03:46:56 AM »

Mr. Desper,

Just wanted to add my sincere appreciation of your work on the SWD study videos to the proper thread on this forum.

Watched all of the presently available videos for the first time a night or two ago and was absolutely mind-blown by the sonic clarity of the material, and even more enthralled by what I learned about the production of each of the tracks.

Really looking forward to the forthcoming videos re: the "Sunflower" and "Surf's Up" albums.

Again, thank you!  Smiley
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« Reply #1549 on: October 14, 2014, 06:58:51 PM »

COMMENT:

The Desper Study-Video website (swdstudyvideos.com) is down for a few days.

Improvements underway.


~swd
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