gfxgfx
 
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
logo
 
gfx gfx
gfx
680597 Posts in 27600 Topics by 4068 Members - Latest Member: Dae Lims March 28, 2024, 10:03:47 AM
*
gfx*HomeHelpSearchCalendarLoginRegistergfx
gfxgfx
0 Members and 12 Guests are viewing this topic.       « previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 33 34 35 36 37 [38] 39 40 41 42 43 ... 79 Go Down Print
Author Topic: The Stephen Desper Thread  (Read 718476 times)
mikeyj
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1825



View Profile
« Reply #925 on: October 13, 2008, 06:47:58 PM »

Hi Folks, and Mr. Desper  if you're out there. I'm new to the world of message boards, so sorry if i don't follow the right protocals. Just discovered the existence of Stephen's book, (thats how i ended up here) and as a huge, huge fan of all things BB's particularly 67 through 77, am dying to read it. I am also a musician singer, with decades of home recording experience, so i am doubly interested in Stephens techniques. If i could learn ONE thing about how they recorded the vocals on Sunflower, it would be worth the price of the book.

So my question is, can someone point me to a link to purchase the book? I found and followed a few posted here, but they seem to be dead.

FWIW, my proudest home recording accomplishment is my take on Wind Chimes....Yes, I am a hardcore fan.

Thank you in advance, I look forward to sharing thoughts with all you fellow beautiful music lovers.

JH055

Hi there jh055, welcome to the board Smiley

The first edition of Stephen's book is currently out of print. He's working on a new edition but as you may appreciate it takes a lot of time as he's doing it himself... but he said he's going to let us know when it becomes available.

Would love to hear your version of Wind Chimes some time as I just love that song!! Maybe you could share it in the "Smiley Smilers Who Make Music" section of the board?
Logged
jh055
Smiley Smile Newbie

Offline Offline

Posts: 4


View Profile
« Reply #926 on: October 16, 2008, 07:26:40 PM »

Thanks Mikeyj, i tried to post my version of Wind Chimes in the "Smiley Smilers who make music" section.....I started a new thread (or post?) and attached the mp3 file, but i got an error saying there is a max file size of 192 kbs.  its not a huge file, but probably 3.5 mbs. If you know where i went wrong, let me know.

Thanks!
Logged
the captain
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 7255


View Profile
« Reply #927 on: October 16, 2008, 07:37:31 PM »

Thanks Mikeyj, i tried to post my version of Wind Chimes in the "Smiley Smilers who make music" section.....I started a new thread (or post?) and attached the mp3 file, but i got an error saying there is a max file size of 192 kbs.  its not a huge file, but probably 3.5 mbs. If you know where i went wrong, let me know.

Thanks!
You may want to post it to a free file-sharing site (sendspace, yousendit, etc.) and then just post the link in that section. That works pretty well.
Logged

Demon-Fighting Genius; Patronizing Twaddler; Argumentative, Sanctimonious Prick; Sensationalist Dullard; and Douche who (occasionally to rarely) puts songs here.

No interest in your assorted grudges and nonsense.
jh055
Smiley Smile Newbie

Offline Offline

Posts: 4


View Profile
« Reply #928 on: October 18, 2008, 05:55:27 AM »

ok, let try this.   http://www.sendspace.com/file/gqdclg.  You guys are my guinea pigs as i learn this stuff. If i have done everything correctly, that link will lead you to my version of Wind Chimes on my newly created Sendspace acct. please let me know if it works. Or, if there is something more i need to do. I notice my link isn't underlined as a normal hyperlink would be.

jh055
Logged
smile-holland
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2131


The dream of Amsterdamee...


View Profile
« Reply #929 on: October 18, 2008, 07:58:59 AM »

works fine jh055. Nicely done btw.
Logged

Quote
Rule of thumb, think BEFORE you post. And THINK how it may affect someone else's feelings.

Check out the Beach Boys Starline website, the place for pictures of many countries Beach Boys releases on 45.

Listening to you I get the music; Gazing at you I get the heat; Following you I climb the mountain; I get excitement at your feet
Right behind you I see the millions; On you I see the glory; From you I get opinions; From you I get the story
Stephen W. Desper
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1365


Maintain Dynamics - Keep Peaks below 100%


View Profile WWW
« Reply #930 on: November 05, 2008, 04:58:11 PM »

COMMENT TO AEIJTZSCHE:

Actually, Steve. if you're up to it, I have one of my long, detailed questions I've been thinking about for a while.

Please, please do not apologize for your interest and appreciation in my work or the final outcome of what ALL the Beach Boys and myself tried to structure in our recordings.

I'd like some clarifications on the mixing process at Brian's house.

This is part of history. Ask away. And ask again, if you wish, in more detail !

Now, you said in your book and also on here that much of the "stereo magic" in the recordings happened a mixdown.  And the tracksheets Alan has provided confirm that, in most cases, you only recorded maybe 30-40% of the instrumentation on any given song in true stereo, usually drums, piano, etc.

Stereo is an illusion. In fact, the whole of sound reproduction is an illusion. Be aware that what is going on in reality is two speaker cones moving in and out. The rest of what we experience is in our mind. The role of the engineer is to understand and apply the art of sonic manipulation through recording to effect an emotion response that reflects what the performer wishes the listener to experience. The magic is in the emotion, not the sound. 

So, given you're ready to do a mix from the 16-track, you would set up all kinds of acoustic effects.

Here's important question #1:  Since you just had the one reverb chamber, I assume that you generally recorded the instruments dry, and then sent what you wanted reverberated to the chamber at mixdown, and that the chamber sent a stereo return back into the board?

You describe a fairly standard procedure.  But I did not generally record things dry. I broke with tradition and recorded reverb or echo effects as part of the instrument track – just because there were only a few tracks.  At mixdown I could introduce simulated stereo for that mono track and give it a larger sound with the reverb effect being enlarged also.

Other tricks I used included:  (1) delays on some of the tracks going to the one chamber to acoustically separate the reverb effect from other reverb effects introduced without delays, (2) placing additional microphones in the same chamber being placed closer or farther from the original speakers and EQing those mics to give emphasis of certain instruments over others, (3) setting up a make shift reverb chamber in Brian’s bathroom and also in the steps going down from the hallway to the cellar, and on some songs (4) going to the Capitol Tower and recording vocal reverb on the multi-track using their chamber #2 or #4.
   

I'm guessing that you would print the vocals with reverb at the time of recording vocals, right?

Not usually as that would lock in too much of a critical element in the mix.  Or, some reverb was recorded, but not a lot. Then additional reverb or “sweetening reverb” would be added at mixdown.  

As for compression or limiting, is it also fair to guess that you did more of that at recording time, than at the mix?

I only recorded Mike using compression. Limiting on the group was mild and only used to check over-dynamics that might be lost or overpower the final mix.

I remember you mentioning somewhere that you had a few compressors at the time.

I had many limiters and compressors, but used only a few favorites that gave the most transparent results. For vocals I only used Universal Audio’s LA-3A or 1176. I never used any ratio higher than 2:1 or 4:1 with soft decays.  At mixdown I would rent additional limiters, as needed.

So, if you were limited in backing vocal tracks, you would limit Mike's bass vocal at the time, and print it to tape in with the rest of the backing vocals that went to maybe just one track?  And put the reverb on there, printed it, also?

Go back to the book on recording the Beach Boys. The details are in the book. I used Common Time Domain Tracking for many group vocals with some stacking but in CTDT. Other songs would not lend themselves to CTDT, so used stacking. But by the use of ping-ponging, the vocal tracks would be limited and compressed and mixed to two tracks no matter how many stacks or doubles were originally used.

Obviously each mix situation is different, but I was fascinated when you once said that often all 40-inputs of the 4 10-channel consoles would be used.  So I wonder what all you had going on.

I guess 16 would be used to take in the tape inputs, but that leaves 24 more inputs.  Stereo reverb return...comb filters...reamping to capture guitars in stereo.  Maybe a split signal on the bass to get some width...

Yes, I’m guilty of all of the above, but with lots and lots of re-amping going on. That is why any remixing today of those sessions which are on tape is not going to yield the same results. Re-amping was not known back then. I think I was one of the first to use it so much. During mixdown the studio was filled with little stations creating effects, not only for guitars, but other instruments and even sometimes the vocals.

Big question #2 is about something more specific:

All the tracksheets I've seen (And I've seen just about all the sunflower ones) indicate that you almost always gave drums two tracks.  Drums L and Drums R is how they're usually labeled.  Alan told me he could find no documentation of you ever doing a condensing bounce of more multi-track drums down to stereo.  In other words, you typically did a live mix of the drums to stereo.

I may have used more mics than three, sometimes even gating multiple mic arrangements, but never ping-ponged drums. You would loose too much snap doing that. Tracking sheets don’t document ping-pongs. So don’t go by them. I gave the drums two tracks so that the drums could be in stereo. I pre-mixed the drums to two tracks because I was secure in my mix and did not need to retain control of each drum until mixdown time.

From what I've seen in pictures, and in exchanging with some people (including you of course), and listening, it seems to me like your "typical" (inasmuch as there is such thing) set up was three mics, you've said an RCA 44 on kick and two 67s top in figure-8.

Depending on the song and the complexity of the basic tracking session, I could record drums using three or four mics, or use many mics and gate each. It depended on the flavor the producer wanted. However the drums were miked, it was the emotional impact the sound made that affected the final decision. A few times we would change from one technique to another just to get the sound or emotion the producer wished.

So, coming the the thrust of the question, when in "Disney Girls", for which we don't seem to have a tracksheet, you send the snare into the tape slap, was that a special set-up for that song involving presetting a snare mic and printing the effect on the stereo drum track?

Yes.

Or were you able to use three tracks on that song, and process the snare at mixdown?

No.

And on an aside question, from listening very carefully to some Sunflower outtakes, I've noticed that on the stereo drum track, rather than put the kick in the center and send the top left and top right to the left and right, it sounds like often you would put a lot more of the kick in the same channel that had the top mic closest to the snare.  In some rough mixes of outtakes I've heard, whoever mixed it )I mixed all so called “outtakes.”) seems to have put the "kick and snare" track nearly centered, and then it's almost like the other track is just a floor tom track, panned out.

OK, that is quite a question!  First of all, I don’t mix individual tracks or mics to make up the whole of the mix. Rather I find the more natural mix is obtained by playing with the leakage and using it to form a complete sound. To answer your question, the overall sound of the drums will be influenced by leakage from the bass guitar, lead licks (if on the basic), piano, etc.  I don’t care about individual tracks, I care about the overall emotional response. It’s not about the sound. It is about the emotional response … that is what sells the song. Forget about the kick or snare being in such and such a position. I don’t give a crap!  Emotion rules!  If the beat is pushed better by the snare in the center, fine. I mix for emotion, not sound or position. If the drums marry with the vocals when the drums sound hollow, then emotion rules and the hell with the sound. We are in the business of selling songs, not audiophile super sounding drum tracks.

I learned this from extensive house mixing. I found that I could make the concert show a success or a failure not by paying attention to the sound from the stage, but from the response of the audience.  When mixing on concert tours, I paid attention to how the audience was reacting. I looked at the audience more than I looked at the stage. I learned what “buttons” would cause a positive audience response. That is what good mixing is about to me. What turns on the listener is what makes up a good mix.

Listening requires two events, no matter a concert or a CD/LP. It requires (1) the performer/recording and (2) the listener/playback. Too often we forget about #2 and only give homage to #1.  This is why you never tire of listening to Sunflower. Each time it evokes an emotion from you, the listener. This is what makes for a great song on record/CD.
An engineer who lets the sound trump the emotion is not respecting what the performer is attempting to accomplish.

Making recordings is quite an art. What is required is the proper mix to fire the heart.


Whew, again, only answer this if you feel like it.  The fact that I care so much about this stuff should at least remind you how much I like your work!!

Thank you for your kind words. It was my esteem pleasure to work with the Beach Boys, all six of them.  I look back on those days as the eldorado of my recording career and only wish my  times with them could have continued forever.

Good Listening to you,   ~Stephen W. Desper
« Last Edit: November 05, 2008, 05:46:31 PM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
Stephen W. Desper
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1365


Maintain Dynamics - Keep Peaks below 100%


View Profile WWW
« Reply #931 on: November 05, 2008, 05:42:30 PM »

Hi Folks, and Mr. Desper  if you're out there.  Yes, I am a hardcore fan.

Thank you in advance.

JH055

Welcome to The Smiley Smile Dot Net Message Board.  When my book is available, I'll be posting where to obtain it on this board first. In the meantime, if you are a hardcore fan, you found a wonderful place to visit.  Any questions for me will be answered here. And, as you can see, other people close to the Beach Boy organization also can be reached here.

Good listening, ~Stephen W. Desper
Logged
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4941


View Profile WWW
« Reply #932 on: November 05, 2008, 07:41:52 PM »

Josh, thanks for asking all those questions, and Steve, thanks for answering them.  I await with baited breath the updated "Recording The Beach Boys by Stephen W. Desper".
Logged
Joshilyn Hoisington
Honored Guest
******
Online Online

Gender: Female
Posts: 3307


Aeijtzsche


View Profile
« Reply #933 on: November 06, 2008, 08:55:02 AM »

Yep, thanks Steve.  I really do appreciate the time it takes to answer all that stuff.

I may have some technical follow ups later, but right away I wanted to expand on what you were saying about evoking the listener's emotional response.

I can't speak for other people, but from what I can figure out...I must be wired a little differently than most people, because my most emotional responses often have to do with details rather than the whole picture.

Maybe that's why it's hard for me to do a really great mix of my recordings.  I tend to focus on the details.  Like, when I listen to "This Whole World" or something, I immediately am turned on by David Cohen's guitar sound.  I almost forget the song.

There are even songs on Sunflower or Surf's Up (and other, non-Beach Boys records) that I don't really like, as songs, that much...but I will still listen over and over again because of some production thing.

I'm just trying to explain where I'm coming from.  For you, Steve, all you have to do is close your eyes and you are taken back to the studio, with the Beach Boys.  But I was never there...and I know C-Man feels the same way, the way we get closer to this band that we love so much is by finding out details.

Since I can never be in the booth during the recording of Wouldn't It Be Nice, I want to find out everything I can, so I can put together some kind of approximation...picturing Carol and Ray and Hal out there, having a feel for where the mics were, etc, bring me a little closer to this dream.  (Until a photo from that session, or any Beach Boys instrumental tracking session shows up.)

And it's kind of the same thing when I ask you questions.  Yeah, I want to know what you did and I want to learn from you so I can make some kind of decent-sounding recordings.  But a lot of it is filling this, yes, emotional void that I have from not being able to experience a Beach Boys tracking session in person.

So, if I can set my mics up on my drums and think, that's kind of how it was when Steve recorded "This Whole World" it lets me feel closer to the Beach Boys and an era I can never be part of.

I hope you can understand that.

Thanks Steve!
Logged
Jason
Guest
« Reply #934 on: November 07, 2008, 01:26:18 PM »

Mr. Desper, I would personally like to thank you for sharing your knowledge and stories about the Beach Boys with us all. We all appreciate it!
Logged
Stephen W. Desper
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1365


Maintain Dynamics - Keep Peaks below 100%


View Profile WWW
« Reply #935 on: November 09, 2008, 02:12:37 PM »

COMMENT TO AEIJTZSCHE:

 Violin  What I do understand about you is that you are a hopelessly romantic engineer who was born too far ahead of his time . . . that you are more at home with splicing tape than cut & drag; original tracking than sampling; XLR connectors than USB ports; drum sticks than drum machines; frequency response than bit rates; and erasing tape than core dumps.

Me too!   ~SWD



« Last Edit: November 09, 2008, 02:14:29 PM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
TdHabib
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1150



View Profile
« Reply #936 on: November 09, 2008, 04:08:39 PM »

I have a small question for Mr. Desper: What are your memories of "Wouldn't it Be Nice to Live Again"? Was it one of your favorites?

Thanks...
Logged

I like the Beatles a bit more than the Boys of Beach, I think Brian's band is the tops---really amazing. And finally, I'm liberal. That's it.
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4941


View Profile WWW
« Reply #937 on: November 27, 2008, 12:52:33 PM »

I was googling for some info on Rumbo Studio (BTW, "The Captain" gets a thank you in the liners of the new Guns N' Roses album, which they were tracking there from 1998-2000 before moving the sessions to The Village Recorder), and I came across this from the StudioExpresso newsletter:

Rumbo is noted for its three great sounding rooms. The largest room studio A, suitable for a 30-40 piece orchestra, has 5 Isolation booths. Studio B, the mid size room with three Iso booths is the most popular for its drum sound and "vibe." Studio C is a great overdub room. Rumbo has a fourth room, currently leased monthly for writing and editing suitable for a Pro Tools studio. All three studios have their own lounge areas. There is parking in the front and rear with a half court basket ball court and patio in the rear.

Which made me curious...Steve, when you were tracking "Keepin' The Summer Alive" there for the Boys in '79/'80, which of the three rooms did you guys use?  And did you make use of the basketball court while there?
Logged
Lady
Guest
« Reply #938 on: December 05, 2008, 08:38:32 AM »

Mr. Desper,

How would you compare Carl’s style in the studio to Dennis’?

Thank you.
Logged
Stephen W. Desper
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1365


Maintain Dynamics - Keep Peaks below 100%


View Profile WWW
« Reply #939 on: December 19, 2008, 08:43:12 AM »

I was googling for some info on Rumbo Studio . . . which made me curious. Steve, when you were tracking "Keepin' The Summer Alive" there for the Boys in '79/'80, which of the three rooms did you guys use?  And did you make use of the basketball court while there?

COMMENT TO C-MAN:  We used all three studios and mixeddown in "A" and "B." We tracked and sweetened in either studio depending on needs. We sweetened in "C" when sessions were simple and did not require the larger consoles of the other rooms.

Some of the sidemen played ball in the parking lot, but none of the boys.

By the way, there is a forth studio upstairs. It was part of the captain's police private apartment. Used by him for his late night work
.
  ~SWD
« Last Edit: December 19, 2008, 08:52:54 AM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
Stephen W. Desper
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1365


Maintain Dynamics - Keep Peaks below 100%


View Profile WWW
« Reply #940 on: December 19, 2008, 08:46:04 AM »

Mr. Desper,

How would you compare Carl’s style in the studio to Dennis’?

Thank you.


See pages 28 and 29 of my book.  ~swd
Logged
Lady
Guest
« Reply #941 on: December 19, 2008, 02:52:46 PM »

Thank you very much for your informative response.
Logged
Stephen W. Desper
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1365


Maintain Dynamics - Keep Peaks below 100%


View Profile WWW
« Reply #942 on: December 19, 2008, 04:58:47 PM »

Thank you very much for your informative response.

You are most welcome Lady.  Sorry I could not quote from the book, but the publisher's policy is to refer any qustion posed by a fan to the page number wherein the question has already been answered.

The (production) style of each Beach Boy was quite different.  Carl was very detailed and studied whereas Dennis was  spontaineous and serendipity.
  ~swd
Logged
c-man
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4941


View Profile WWW
« Reply #943 on: December 20, 2008, 07:55:05 AM »

I was googling for some info on Rumbo Studio . . . which made me curious. Steve, when you were tracking "Keepin' The Summer Alive" there for the Boys in '79/'80, which of the three rooms did you guys use?  And did you make use of the basketball court while there?

COMMENT TO C-MAN:  We used all three studios and mixeddown in "A" and "B." We tracked and sweetened in either studio depending on needs. We sweetened in "C" when sessions were simple and did not require the larger consoles of the other rooms.

Some of the sidemen played ball in the parking lot, but none of the boys.

By the way, there is a forth studio upstairs. It was part of the captain's police private apartment. Used by him for his late night work
.
  ~SWD

Thanks Stephen.  Will you be covering this period in your revised book as well as the late 60's-early 70's?
Logged
variable2
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 360


View Profile
« Reply #944 on: December 20, 2008, 10:59:22 PM »

I would love to hear some stories about Brian's involvement in the Spring stuff (i.e. Sweet Mountain, Tennessee Waltz), or any other stories Stephen might have about this time (early 70s).  It is a very intriguing, though seemingly sparse, time period for Brian.. musically, and production wise.  I love his work with synths during this time.  Any thoughts would be appreciated, Stephen.  And thank you for your wonderful insight and information!
Logged
scallions
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 14


View Profile
« Reply #945 on: January 01, 2009, 05:38:32 PM »

I can't wait for your new book!!!!
Logged
scallions
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 14


View Profile
« Reply #946 on: January 02, 2009, 03:53:19 PM »

 Smiley

Stephen, thank you so much for sending me the stuff

you rule
shawn'
Logged
Stephen W. Desper
Honored Guest
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1365


Maintain Dynamics - Keep Peaks below 100%


View Profile WWW
« Reply #947 on: January 29, 2009, 06:39:42 AM »

HEADS UP TO AEIKTZSCHE:

Knowing of your interest in older studio workings and analog techniques, I recommend that you rent the DVD of the Disney movie "WALL-E" by Pixar (Disney DVD 054361).  On the DVD, one of the extra features is called Animation Sound Design: Building Worlds From The Sound Up.  It is a piece by the legendary sound designer Ben Burtt who shares some secrets of creating sound effects with stills and movies of recording sessions from the late 40's and 50's. Some shots of older analog equipment used to create effects as well as how it's done with today's digital programs. I think you will find this short of much interest -- besides it's a good movie.
  ~swd
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 06:05:34 AM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
guitarfool2002
Global Moderator
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 9996


"Barba non facit aliam historici"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #948 on: January 29, 2009, 08:07:50 AM »

Great tip! Wall-E is an awesome movie, this is icing on the cake.

I'd also chime in here with a tip to read the current issue of Tape Op magazine which has a good interview with the Dragons, where they talk tech and studio gear more than I've heard before, and it includes some great photos including one of Daryl playing vibes with Ed Carter playing bass in their living room in 1966, with a U47 overhead...I'd like to have a U47 in my own living room, actually.
Logged

"All of us have the privilege of making music that helps and heals - to make music that makes people happier, stronger, and kinder. Don't forget: Music is God's voice." - Brian Wilson
punkinhead
Smiley Smile Associate
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 4508


what it means to be human


View Profile
« Reply #949 on: January 31, 2009, 04:45:12 PM »

Any ETA for the new book?   Grin
Logged

To view my video documentation of my Beach Boys collection go to www.youtube.com/justinplank

"Someone needs to tell Adrian Baker that imitation isn't innovation." -The Real Beach Boy

~post of the century~
"Well, you reached out to me too, David, and I'd be more than happy to fill Bgas's shoes. You don't need him anyway - some of us have the same items in our collections as he does and we're also much better writers. Spoiled brat....."
-Mikie

"in this online beach boy community, I've found that you're either correct or corrected. Which in my mind is all in good fun to show ones knowledge of their favorite band."- punkinhead
gfx
Pages: 1 ... 33 34 35 36 37 [38] 39 40 41 42 43 ... 79 Go Up Print 
gfx
Jump to:  
gfx
Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Page created in 0.407 seconds with 23 queries.
Helios Multi design by Bloc
gfx
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!