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Author Topic: The Stephen Desper Thread  (Read 718911 times)
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« Reply #150 on: January 11, 2006, 11:03:06 AM »

James Burton....hmm. As an Elvis-fanatic, it would be cool if he really played on this one while also being Elvis' lead-guitarist.

James Burton was still an in-demand studio session player during the time he was with Elvis, and dating back to his initial sessions on all those amazing Ricky Nelson sides. Besides the Beach Boys, he can be heard on Monkees records, I think he led one of the television studio bands for either Shindig or Hulabaloo, and was called often for sessions. Elvis apparently wanted him on the '68 Comeback as well, before calling him directly when he was ready to put his touring band together, but that gig didn't work out and Tedesco and the LA guys did the special.

And all during the time he was with Elvis, he was just as active in the studio, playing with Gram Parsons, Emmylou Harris, John Denver, among others...the list goes on. I have a cool overhead studio photo from the early 70's of James Burton playing on a Johnny Mathis session, with horns and the full band setup. His resume is one of the most impressive of all guitarists...and I still hear his style so much in modern country guitar!

Refresh my memory, someone please...was James Burton's guitar the one that was plucked behind the nut to get the sound of the railroad spikes being driven in, or am I thinking of someone else with a lap steel on those '66 sessions doing the "plinking"? I haven't checked out that kind of thing for months...but I do remember it was Carol Kaye playing the banjo line. Wink
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« Reply #151 on: January 11, 2006, 07:53:04 PM »

Hey Steve, you had 5 AKG D-1000 microphones in your touring package with the Beach Boys. 

What did you use them for, both on the road and in the studio?  I just picked one up for pretty cheap.
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« Reply #152 on: January 11, 2006, 09:13:40 PM »

Hey Steve, you had 5 AKG D-1000 microphones in your touring package with the Beach Boys. 

What did you use them for, both on the road and in the studio?  I just picked one up for pretty cheap.
Didn't we talk about this before?  Guitars mostly.  A good "work" mic in that it sounds good on many things.  ~swd
 
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« Reply #153 on: January 11, 2006, 09:21:42 PM »

I think we talked about EV 666s and RE-15s.  But I am losing my mind, so we may very well have had a 2-hour long conversation about D1000s four hours ago for all I know.
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« Reply #154 on: January 11, 2006, 09:22:48 PM »

Well you ask for it. Don't put this offer off until later. ~swd

http://community.webtv.net/askswd/CopyServiceInfo
« Last Edit: January 14, 2006, 06:36:01 AM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
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« Reply #155 on: January 12, 2006, 12:43:26 PM »

Steve,

I do not have the Sunflower/Surf's up book so if this is mentioned in it, please excuse me. What was the drum mic'ing setup that you used? Did you mic up every individual piece? Maybe an XY arrangement? Curious on your thoughts on this matter, as we're tracking drums this weekend. Smiley

-Joe
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« Reply #156 on: January 12, 2006, 02:30:17 PM »

Steve,

I do not have the Sunflower/Surf's up book so if this is mentioned in it, please excuse me. What was the drum mic'ing setup that you used? Did you mic up every individual piece? Maybe an XY arrangement? Curious on your thoughts on this matter, as we're tracking drums this weekend. Smiley

-Joe

There are no set rules.  It depends on the song, the sound the producer wants, the drum kit, the style of the drummer, the acoustics of the room, the position of other players in the band, the number of tracks available, the type of microphones on hand, and the phase of the moon.  What can I say.   ~swd
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« Reply #157 on: January 12, 2006, 04:49:49 PM »

I hear ya, I was just curious what were some of your preferences.

When we recorded our first EP, we mic'd every single piece. So that I can control the sonic space of every single piece of the kit. Unfortunately, we recorded that at the local community college, where we recorded on a Sony 24 track tape and had a plethora of external gear. This time we're doing it at my place, where we're a bit...limited. Thinkin about mic'in kick (not sure what mic we're using), mid and floor tom with a SM57, snare with an SM57, and we have a B1 Behringer Condensor on the crash. Im worried about the hihats and ride..still dont have mics for that...have to figure it out by tomorrow evening. I was thinkin about trading in the B1 for the RODE NT5 (dual pencil condensor mics) and work on an XY configuration.

oh well, was hopin to have a fun discussion with this..off to tapeop I go Smiley

take care
-Joe
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« Reply #158 on: January 12, 2006, 07:23:48 PM »

I hear ya, I was just curious what were some of your preferences.

When we recorded our first EP, we mic'd every single piece. So that I can control the sonic space of every single piece of the kit. Unfortunately, we recorded that at the local community college, where we recorded on a Sony 24 track tape and had a plethora of external gear. This time we're doing it at my place, where we're a bit...limited. Thinkin about mic'in kick (not sure what mic we're using), mid and floor tom with a SM57, snare with an SM57, and we have a B1 Behringer Condensor on the crash. Im worried about the hihats and ride..still dont have mics for that...have to figure it out by tomorrow evening. I was thinkin about trading in the B1 for the RODE NT5 (dual pencil condensor mics) and work on an XY configuration.

oh well, was hopin to have a fun discussion with this..off to tapeop I go Smiley

take care
-Joe
  Take from these suggestions as you can.  The major contribution to the drum sound is THE DRUMMER.  If you can convince him to play softly, you will get a more dynamic recording. The best argument is that you are in a studio, not a concert hall. These are microphones for recording, not amplifying. If you play softly, the headroom goes way up and the body rather than the impact of the drum sound can be heard in a mix. You might consider placing a mic with a figure-8 pattern between the snare and the ride.  Then move the mic (and the drum or ride) for balance and use hi/low EQ to trim the balance. That will free-up the SM57 for one crash and maybe give you another dynamic -- don't know.  If you can isolate the drums, consider plain ol' simple miking.  Kick, snare, two-overheads.  If you don't beat the hell out of the drums, their beauty will emerge.  Use mid-frequency EQ to bring out the toms from the overheads. You don't need to worry about X-Y, just put the overheads where you get the best sound.  If the drums ring too long use a wallet to damp the head. Take one skin off the kick if you want the punch to be dominate over the sympathetic vibration from the toms. ~swd   
« Last Edit: January 12, 2006, 07:27:05 PM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
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« Reply #159 on: January 13, 2006, 08:27:59 AM »

Steve,
  Any chance you could put the link up again for ordering your book?
Big Bri
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« Reply #160 on: January 13, 2006, 11:38:34 AM »

Check the little globe under the avatar!
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« Reply #161 on: January 14, 2006, 04:30:53 PM »

Steve,

I do not have the Sunflower/Surf's up book so if this is mentioned in it, please excuse me. What was the drum mic'ing setup that you used? Did you mic up every individual piece? Maybe an XY arrangement? Curious on your thoughts on this matter, as we're tracking drums this weekend. Smiley

-Joe

Comment for amosario --

How did your session go?  Did you get a good drum sound?
  ~swd
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« Reply #162 on: January 14, 2006, 06:23:02 PM »

Stephen,

We pushed it back til tomorrow because our drummer had class today. We're setting up in the early am and tracking all through the afternoon and early evening. If we don't get the 3 songs down we'll be using Monday as well (luckily we all have the day off).

I'll report back to you as soon as the session is done.

Thank you! Smiley
-Joe

p.s. The other sound engineer and I were talkin, and we're thinkin about having the condensor in the Middle, two SM57's on LEFT and RIGHT (overview) and then mic'in the kick and snare. Only problem with that is that Im afraid the sm57s wont pick the cymbals and hihat too clear. Anyway, we have a few ideas we're gonna try out so Im excited!
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« Reply #163 on: January 14, 2006, 07:29:18 PM »


p.s. The other sound engineer and I were talkin, and we're thinkin about having the condensor in the Middle, two SM57's on LEFT and RIGHT (overview) and then mic'in the kick and snare. Only problem with that is that Im afraid the sm57s wont pick the cymbals and hihat too clear. Anyway, we have a few ideas we're gonna try out so Im excited!

If you are short on mics, back them up and get an overall sound.  If, as the song progresses and you find that after adding many layers, one drum is not loud enough you can always sweeten it back in. You will hear the entire kit if you back the mics back. Everything will come into balance too.  Are the drums somewhat isolated or will backing up drum mics make for leakage problems?   ~swd
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« Reply #164 on: January 14, 2006, 07:51:48 PM »

That is what we're worried about, with the leakage. When we recorded our first ep all the mics were right up to the drum and it sounded so sweet. The mix down on the drums was very detailed in the sense of panning. Since we're limited this time around it seems like we will have more of an overall sound. So we will have to work on the mic positioning. I really don't mind, we have a new drummer and he's a lot jazzier than our previous drummer, it might just work out. What I'm concerned about (and you brought this up on a previous post) is how he can intensify as the song plays through and eventually plays really hard. We're going to have to sit down and talk to him about keeping the intensity of the hits mid-level and keep the sound sweet and round with not too much of a 'punch'. If we were able to mic every single piece, then this wouldnt be a problem.

Another unfortunate circumstance, since we're recording this in my bedroom, the computer/sound unit (I use an Aardvark Q10) will be in the same room. I was hoping to move the computer to another room, but in the end, it wont work out. So we have to do a lot of the leveling visually using the input mixer levels.  Shocked


-Joe
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« Reply #165 on: January 15, 2006, 06:14:27 AM »

That is what we're worried about, with the leakage. When we recorded our first ep all the mics were right up to the drum and it sounded so sweet. The mix down on the drums was very detailed in the sense of panning. Since we're limited this time around it seems like we will have more of an overall sound. So we will have to work on the mic positioning. I really don't mind, we have a new drummer and he's a lot jazzier than our previous drummer, it might just work out. What I'm concerned about (and you brought this up on a previous post) is how he can intensify as the song plays through and eventually plays really hard. We're going to have to sit down and talk to him about keeping the intensity of the hits mid-level and keep the sound sweet and round with not too much of a 'punch'. If we were able to mic every single piece, then this wouldnt be a problem.

Another unfortunate circumstance, since we're recording this in my bedroom, the computer/sound unit (I use an Aardvark Q10) will be in the same room. I was hoping to move the computer to another room, but in the end, it wont work out. So we have to do a lot of the leveling visually using the input mixer levels.  Shocked


-Joe

There is one other way...  Use a click track.  Record the drums with mics only, bass direct, even guatars & keyboards direct. No leakage.  Then re-amp the bass, guitars and keys.  Or replace them with new tracks.  The point is, use all your mics on the drums, use seperate tracks for each mic and everything else direct. Then balance the drums and pig-pong to dedicated drum tracks.  Re-play or re-amp the other instruments. Use the click track as a guide.  When you make the click track (first) call out (put on tape) the downbeat (say downbeat of 8 beats), then say first chorus in four beats, then second verse in four beats, then guitar vamp in four beats.  You get the picture.  When you hear it in your headphones you will only hear the clicks, but will also know where you are in the song.  Everyone will be on the same cue.  ~swd
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« Reply #166 on: January 15, 2006, 07:56:23 AM »

Oh! I made a mistake, I thought you meant leakage through the individual drum mics. We are recording the drums and the bass together at the same time. The bass is direct in. (We might even work on re-amping the Bass afterwards) The guitars will also be direct for scratch tracks, we're recording the guitars on another date (we have all the time in the world to do the guitar tracks, its the drums that we're limited too since our drummer has a job and goes to classes) and I have to get my amped fixed. For some reason, my amp decided to stop working...It looks it might be one of the tubes in the preamp. Thats what I get for going on a bumpy ride after a gig. :/

Anywho, today we're dedicating to recording the drum and bass tracks for 3 songs. Once we got the perfect takes, we'll be workin on recording the guitars through our amps and little tricks that we like to do around the house. We literally setup 3 or 4 mics to an amp and try to go for the best mix of sounds. We have a lot of fun. Smiley

I have a feeling we'll have six inputs dedicated to the drums (kick, snare, tom 1, tom 2, overhead left, overhead right) and then the remaining two inputs will goto the bass and one guitar. (The band setup is 2 guitars, bass, drums, drum machine/moog synth)

Smiley
-Joe
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« Reply #167 on: January 15, 2006, 11:20:52 AM »

I think we talked about EV 666s and RE-15s.  But I am losing my mind, so we may very well have had a 2-hour long conversation about D1000s four hours ago for all I know.
  As I recall the D-1000 was a little hard or edgy.  So when I needed that "edge" to cut through some harmonically rich mix I'd use one or two.  I don't remember using them on anything that had or needed low-end.  It was mostly a midrange mic.  I never used them on vocals.  ~swd
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« Reply #168 on: January 15, 2006, 11:29:04 AM »

We are recording the drums and the bass together at the same time. The bass is direct in. I have a feeling we'll have six inputs dedicated to the drums (kick, snare, tom 1, tom 2, overhead left, overhead right) and then the remaining two inputs will goto the bass and one guitar. (The band setup is 2 guitars, bass, drums, drum machine/moog synth)
-Joe
If you are mixing in digital land, you could always gate the drums, after-the-fact, to reduce inner-instrumental leakage. Notice your setup includes a moog synth.  Use that to make your click track.  Once you have a click track, you can always overlay drums.  Like, record snare kick and toms up close. Then overdub the ride and hihat -- or some such order.  You don't need to record all the drums at the same time if you use a click track.  ~swd
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« Reply #169 on: January 15, 2006, 11:35:00 AM »

Like, record snare kick and toms up close. Then overdub the ride and hihat -- or some such order.  You don't need to record all the drums at the same time if you use a click track.[/b]  ~swd

We've tinker'd around with that idea, but sometimes you lose a certain 'groove' when you start seperating parts. Maybe its just us! I dont know. We're finally setting everything up, unfortunately, our drummer is nowhere to be found. So in the end, we might just track some stuff for fun and mess around with it. We'll see how it pans out.

I use Cubase SX 2 to record, it has its own internal click track, but let me tell you Stephen, Im not a fan of click tracks. I've tried to use them multiple times (for myself and with other drummers) and it just gets frustrating. I especially hate click tracks when Im trying to record an instrument, its just too solid and straight forward with absolutely no groove! We'll see how it goes, as soon as we finish tonite I'll give you the full report! Until then, Im going to send you a link through the private message function on the board, I hope you recieve it. Smiley

-Joe
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« Reply #170 on: January 15, 2006, 03:02:33 PM »


I especially hate click tracks when Im trying to record an instrument, its just too solid and straight forward with absolutely no groove!
-Joe

I'm not a big fan of clicks either, but sometimes you gatta use um.  Two things.  (1) You can play around the click, and (2) there are click programs that key off of the kick or the snare.  That way they are not locked down.

You know, if you are just a garage band for fun -- screw all that fancy techno stuff.  But if you expect to move your band into the club circuit or open for a concert group or entertaining on a plane larger than your bedroom, best to get use to using a click track.  Here's one big advantage.  If you use a click track with proper start and flags so you know where you are in the song, you can sync up MIDI to control your lights to change with the blocking you work out -- all automatic even though you are playing live. You can even sync BG parts to come in on cue to suppliment your sound or fatten certain instruments. If you are inclined, the click track lets you have dancers too.  I've worked with or been entertained by several bands that use click tracks. The advantage is that your set is always the same.  Set your standards high and you can get gigs because your performance is consistently good and looks good. The lights work at the right time and the sound is thick. The dis-advantage is that you are not free to screwup (if that is a dis-advantage?) or excell on those few night when you give an exceptional performance that comes along once in a while.  The click track takes the highs and lows out of the show and puts it on a consistant, better-than-average level that always gives a good set. That is what promotors are looking for. Less risk -- more consistant shows.

By the way, only the drummer listens to the click track.  The rest of the band gets its beat via the drummer.  So, if the drummer wants to play off of your guitar vamp, rather than the clock of the click track -- he can.  He's not going way off the clock -- just a little rabato (free form). But it's a fact of life that your audience will enjoy your performance better if, for the most part, the beat is consistent.  Hal Blain was a successful drummer because he was on time -- not to the sessions, but to the beat. We use to say about Hal -- the US Navy set their clocks to his beat. I think the so-called "groove" is not rabato, it's finding the correct meter for the song. Most bands play in the same old meter they started out playing a song with from the beginning.  NO.  Take the song, play it slightly slower, slightly faster.  Ask if it felt best one way or the other.  Experiment.  Be true to your feelings.  The correct groove will be appearent to the entire band.  As you know, all of a sudden you all "feel" as one performer.  The groove is when all members feel connected as only musicians can.  This is the ElDorado of being a band.  When everyone, all of a sudden, becomes everyone's soul brother for that instant of playing -- it's fantastic, transcendental.  That I understand.  But you can get to this point, even with a click track. From my experience, the click track does not take the groove away, if done right, it will actually make it happen.  Try it out.

Good Listening, ~Stephen W. Desper     
« Last Edit: January 15, 2006, 03:31:04 PM by Stephen W. Desper » Logged
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« Reply #171 on: January 15, 2006, 03:14:51 PM »

If nothing else, it gives you the discipline of paying attention to the beat/tempo throughout the ENTIRE song, not just the part that's easy, or less passionate, or whatever. 

Consistent tempo and beat throughout a song a critical, but they're also the first thing to go if you're not paying attention.  A click track will teach you to pay attention to your beat.
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« Reply #172 on: January 15, 2006, 04:33:54 PM »

Success!

We have two songs recorded so far. Another problem with us using a click track is that we change tempo throughout our songs...we're very...'experimental'. We're about to take a 'break' and then start on the third song. I'll be back with a full report with the mic setup and some pics...Its funny what you said about Hal, after shows people have come up to us and say that our drummer is a human metronome (no lie).

Everything is comin out great, and we're REALLY happy with the overall sound. It's so crisp!

Ill be back soon!

take care
-Joe
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« Reply #173 on: January 15, 2006, 07:32:44 PM »

Here we go!

It was a success. The best we've ever have drums sound in my room, the setup:

XY -  Audio-Technica XM3 x2
Kick - Audio-Technica XM9
^ all we had available
Toms - SM57 x2
Ride - Behringer (sp?) B-1

some pics:







We'll start recording the instruments over the week, we're just happy we got 3 songs down on the drums...and I honestly cant stop raving about how great they sound. Its true, to record good sounding drums is not just the gear but the drummer himself. I can't wait to start getting more tracks down!

If you were curious, this is what my DAW looked like



Stephen, I'll be more than happy to send you a dry mp3 of the drum tracks if you wish to give it a listen.

Take care
-Joe

p.s. sorry for straying away from the original topic at hand...the mighty amazing Beach Boys! :x
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« Reply #174 on: January 16, 2006, 04:57:54 PM »

Comment to Mr. LePage --

Is there some way you can make it permanent that I am on line "forever?"  I put that into the log-on, but it has happened five times now that I type a long replay with much technical information only to have it all erased, or dropped, with no way to go back and retrieve it.  It just happend again with this drum discussion and I just don't have the time to re-enter all I said. I lost four paragraphs of comments.  A real bummer. The loser is the fan.  Please see if you can just make me on line "forever" everytime I log in.  I never had this problem before.  Thanks. ~swd
[/b]
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