What Else Did The Beatles "Borrow" From Smile?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Why is everyone overlooking the concept behind the GMGM animals, that each one was "eating" the previous?  Was that Brian's concept too?  Seems to me like two completely different set of ideas, and some people are sort of grasping for straws... 

Except of course for the idea of inserting real animal sounds at the end of a track. In that case, they are entirely, 100% the same set of ideas.

Said animal sounds were actually a link track to the "Pepper" reprise. As "C, N" was the final track on Pet Sounds... kinda falls apart there, doesn't it ?

[guitarfool2002]

You Know My Name is in no way a modular composition or recording. If anything it came from a song idea Lennon had, and skits they used to perform at his home (studio) with his Mellotron adding sound effects and audience reactions and nightclub feel. Almost the entire progression of that song is available on Beatles boots...fascinating for some, tedious and unfunny for others. But it's all there.

And nothing modular about it.

[The Demon]

If the Beatles copied Smile for Sgt Pepper, then why aren't we calling bits like, "You're under arrrest," a copy of "Yellow Submarine"?  These desperate attempts to legitimize music that doesn't need to be legitimized really just make me embarrassed to tell people I like Smile.  Who cares if the Beatles made similar music?  All these bands copied and reacted to each other, anyway.

[soniclovenoize]

Why is everyone overlooking the concept behind the GMGM animals, that each one was "eating" the previous?  Was that Brian's concept too?  Seems to me like two completely different set of ideas, and some people are sort of grasping for straws... 

Except of course for the idea of inserting real animal sounds at the end of a track. In that case, they are entirely, 100% the same set of ideas.

So thus by your logic, if I can find a song containing animal noises that predates Pet Sounds, then BW ripped them off, correct? 

[I. Spaceman]

You Know My Name is in no way a modular composition or recording. If anything it came from a song idea Lennon had, and skits they used to perform at his home (studio) with his Mellotron adding sound effects and audience reactions and nightclub feel. Almost the entire progression of that song is available on Beatles boots...fascinating for some, tedious and unfunny for others. But it's all there.

And nothing modular about it.

It is the same chord progression played in a variety of styles and genres. I am not saying that IS modular, but if Brian did the same thing, EVERYONE would be calling it modular. That word is just a way for Brian Wilson fans to make themselves feel hip and sophisticated, anyway.

[donald]

I'll go in a different direction here.    Everytime I listen to I'm Only Sleeping on headphones, I'm struck by how the background (oohs and aahs) harmony parts remind me of Beachboys harmony....just not as full.  It is actually what MAKES the song, IMO.

I think these bands influenced one another.  Seems I've read that in several places over the years.  Is this news to some people?

[soniclovenoize]

I'll go in a different direction here.    Everytime I listen to I'm Only Sleeping on headphones, I'm struck by how the background (oohs and aahs) harmony parts remind me of Beachboys harmony....just not as full.  It is actually what MAKES the song, IMO.

I think these bands influenced one another.  Seems I've read that in several places over the years.  Is this news to some people?

Did The Beach Boys invent vocal harmonies? 

Also, when did The Beatles start singing harmonies?  1959? 

[guitarfool2002]

Of course they influenced each other, but I think there is a tendency to over-credit Brian Wilson as much as the Beatles have been over-credited through the years. Not saying they don't deserve heaps of credit for their work, but some of it goes too far and isn't historically accurate. The animal sounds are one example, as is the notion of modular songwriting, along with the whole notion of editing sections of a song together to form a complete recording/composition, which was done before "Good Vibrations", maybe not to the same degree of commercial success but experiments were being done with tape editing in less commercial genres before Brian did it.

I'll list plenty of Beatles tunes which I think are directly influenced by the Beach Boys, but how do we know? I'll stand by Penny Lane as *the* example of Paul taking a direct cue from one of Brian's productions, yet no one here seems to back it up or dismiss it. Have a listen to Penny Lane next to Wouldn't It Be Nice, minus the Bach trumpet it's like a British version of a Pet Sounds track. And no doubt "Here There And Everywhere" was the Beatles pulling a Brian Wilson vocal trick, but how do we know? John, Paul, and George were harmonizing before the Beach Boys were on the commercial map, but it was coming from early Motown, Spector, and the like.

I really like the fact that there never was a competition between the Beatles and BB's. The one time the BB's slipped off the high road was that silly Four Seasons throwdown crap they put on a throwaway track, and it made them look silly. But between the powerhouse Capitol bands of 64-65, there seemed to be mutual admiration.

[donald]

I'll go in a different direction here.    Everytime I listen to I'm Only Sleeping on headphones, I'm struck by how the background (oohs and aahs) harmony parts remind me of Beachboys harmony....just not as full.  It is actually what MAKES the song, IMO.

I think these bands influenced one another.  Seems I've read that in several places over the years.  Is this news to some people?

Did The Beach Boys invent vocal harmonies? 

Also, when did The Beatles start singing harmonies?  1959? 

Of course the Beatles were KNOWN for harmony from the early days.  Sometimes compared to Everly brothers with three voices.   What I was describing was the SOUND of the background harmony on I'm Only Sleeping.  Sounds more like a BB harmony sound and style than the well known  Beatles harmony.  And it sounds really good.  Just an observation.  Go have another  listen to this song, paying close attention to the background nonword harmony part,  and see if you hear what I heard.  

[Chris Brown]

Of course they influenced each other, but I think there is a tendency to over-credit Brian Wilson as much as the Beatles have been over-credited through the years. Not saying they don't deserve heaps of credit for their work, but some of it goes too far and isn't historically accurate. The animal sounds are one example, as is the notion of modular songwriting, along with the whole notion of editing sections of a song together to form a complete recording/composition, which was done before "Good Vibrations", maybe not to the same degree of commercial success but experiments were being done with tape editing in less commercial genres before Brian did it.

I'll list plenty of Beatles tunes which I think are directly influenced by the Beach Boys, but how do we know? I'll stand by Penny Lane as *the* example of Paul taking a direct cue from one of Brian's productions, yet no one here seems to back it up or dismiss it. Have a listen to Penny Lane next to Wouldn't It Be Nice, minus the Bach trumpet it's like a British version of a Pet Sounds track. And no doubt "Here There And Everywhere" was the Beatles pulling a Brian Wilson vocal trick, but how do we know? John, Paul, and George were harmonizing before the Beach Boys were on the commercial map, but it was coming from early Motown, Spector, and the like.

I really like the fact that there never was a competition between the Beatles and BB's. The one time the BB's slipped off the high road was that silly Four Seasons throwdown crap they put on a throwaway track, and it made them look silly. But between the powerhouse Capitol bands of 64-65, there seemed to be mutual admiration.

"Penny Lane" is always the first track that comes to mind when I think of the Beach Boys' influence on the Beatles.  That bass line is Brian all the way.  Same for "With a Little Help From My Friends."  I would also count "Because" as being Beach Boys influenced, but as you say, it's hard to know for sure.  Given that they could have heard "Our Prayer" by that time, it's certainly possible.

[adam78]

Paul McCartney says that the Here, there and everywhere intro was a very deliberate attempt to do a Beach Boys harmony. I've lost count how many times I've read and heard him say how influenced they were by them across the Revolver and Sgt Peppers albums. This was the real creative/competitive surge in both bands at the same time. Neither has ever done anymore than openly praise the other during this period as far as I'm aware. And certainly not shied away from admitting any influence from the other.

Oh and i've defintely read Paul McCartney say that walking basslines was one of the biggest influences he took from Brian, or really took note of. Something to that effect.

[Dead Parrot]

In the Beatles Anthology, there's a discussion between Paul, George & Ringo, where the influence of The Beach Boys on "Penny Lane" is mentioned by both Paul & George.

[Ron]

You Know My Name is in no way a modular composition or recording. If anything it came from a song idea Lennon had, and skits they used to perform at his home (studio) with his Mellotron adding sound effects and audience reactions and nightclub feel. Almost the entire progression of that song is available on Beatles boots...fascinating for some, tedious and unfunny for others. But it's all there.

And nothing modular about it.

It is the same chord progression played in a variety of styles and genres. I am not saying that IS modular, but if Brian did the same thing, EVERYONE would be calling it modular. That word is just a way for Brian Wilson fans to make themselves feel hip and sophisticated, anyway.

That's what I was getting at, the 'feel' of the song is the same, and it was recorded after Brian largely pioneered that sound, so you COULD say that it was influenced by the 'Boys... but not in a sinister way, more in a that's what everybody was trying musically at the time type of way. 

[guitarfool2002]

The definition of modular songwriting tends to become bastardized into something it's not. Recording a song in sections then editing them together to form a composition is not necessarily modular writing by definition or by design, but maybe those methods can be stretched and shaped into being labeled modular by the results. If that were the case, anything in the past 30 years recorded on a sequencer or using a sequencing tool of some kind would be called modular, and I'd disagree with that.

There is also the age-old concept of "variations on a theme" which I think would better describe a lot of what is called modular.

I'd go out on a limb here...a rather thin one I'd admit...and say maybe the only example of a true modular composition in the Beatles' catalog was John's "Revolution #9". The piece was conceived as a collage of found sounds and tape loops, and I'd argue the composition itself could replace, re-sequence, and reorder any of the sections which form the composition at random and it would still fit. Every section (in this case each loop or tape splice) becomes both dependent on and independent of its surroundings for the piece to flow as a composition. Brian was doing this with all those Heroes sections, and as fanmixers for years have shown, you can scramble them up any way you want and it's still a cohesive Heroes. They were written/designed to be that way. Is Heroes then the most true example of modular writing in Brian's work? Or was it Good Vibrations?

[Jon Stebbins]

I'll list plenty of Beatles tunes which I think are directly influenced by the Beach Boys, but how do we know? I'll stand by Penny Lane as *the* example of Paul taking a direct cue from one of Brian's productions, yet no one here seems to back it up or dismiss it. Have a listen to Penny Lane next to Wouldn't It Be Nice, minus the Bach trumpet it's like a British version of a Pet Sounds track.

Penny Lane for sure is the best example of the Beatles showing their love of the '66 Brian/Beach Boys feel and production style. In fact it says so on page 62 of The Beach Boys FAQ book.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Must be true, then.

[guitarfool2002]

I have not read the FAQ book yet, but intend to add it to my library soon! So Penny Lane is a definite, admitted influence on a Beatles recording from Brian, we can take that one to the bank. Now, are there any other references to specific songs that have been mentioned as influences on either band, apart from Penny Lane? Just curious...we could make our own lists based on listening to the tunes but I want to know if band members have cited any specifics other than Penny Lane.

[Jon Stebbins]

I have not read the FAQ book yet, but intend to add it to my library soon! So Penny Lane is a definite, admitted influence on a Beatles recording from Brian, we can take that one to the bank. Now, are there any other references to specific songs that have been mentioned as influences on either band, apart from Penny Lane? Just curious...we could make our own lists based on listening to the tunes but I want to know if band members have cited any specifics other than Penny Lane.

I have a little section in the FAQ book that deals with this subject...very selective, very brief, by no means definitive. But among the songs I bring up are Girl Don't Tell Me, Here There and Everywhere, Penny Lane, Back In The USSR which IMO are the obvious Beachles cross pollination examples.

[anazgnos]

On the one hand, "Girl Don't Tell Me" is great.  On the other, it pretty much goes all the way past "influence" into blatant mimicry.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Why is everyone overlooking the concept behind the GMGM animals, that each one was "eating" the previous?  Was that Brian's concept too?  Seems to me like two completely different set of ideas, and some people are sort of grasping for straws... 

Except of course for the idea of inserting real animal sounds at the end of a track. In that case, they are entirely, 100% the same set of ideas.

So thus by your logic, if I can find a song containing animal noises that predates Pet Sounds, then BW ripped them off, correct? 

Incorrect and since you cannot even begin to conceive what I am talking about, I am not going to go any further.

[Jason]

You lot should just throw away your Beach Boys CDs and embrace your Beatles fandom. It would make you a lot more happier than having to continually justify your Beach Boys fandom.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

You lot should just throw away your Beach Boys CDs and embrace your Beatles fandom. It would make you a lot more happier than having to continually justify your Beach Boys fandom.

That's not what it's about though. The Beatles were influenced by Pet Sounds, just as The Beach Boys sound was influenced heavily by Spector, the Four Freshmen, and Chuck Berry. Spector was inspired by doo wop and doo wop was inspired by jazz vocal quartets and so on. It doesn't hurt to bring it up.

[Jason]

Agreed, but then you get sh*t like "did the Beatles hear POB" or "did Sgt. Pepper rip off Smile" and it reeks of people trying to find ways to justify their Beach Boys fandom. People are trying to find common ground that isn't there. It becomes tiring after a while. This is coming from a HUGE Beatles fan.

[I. Spaceman]

There is also the age-old concept of "variations on a theme" which I think would better describe a lot of what is called modular.

And that is a perfect description of You Know My Name (Look Up The Number).

[soniclovenoize]

Incorrect and since you cannot even begin to conceive what I am talking about, I am not going to go any further.

Well I'll give you the chance to explain yourself.  Elaborate. 

The central point of your argument is that
A) Since Pet Sounds contained animal noises before the Pepper, then
B) The Beatles must have "at least been influenced subconsciously"

And my retort is that if I can find a recording with animal noises that pre-dates Pet Sounds, that means Pet Sounds must have "at least been subconsciously influenced" by that...  by your logic.

I think it's pretty simple.  Don't you?