Rock & Other Four Letter Words: complete Brian 1968 interview online

[Shane]

Amazing interview.... thanks for that.  The late 60s and early 70s are such a "lost" period of Brian's life.  His voice seems a bit raspy, especially at the beginning.

[mammy blue]

I'm not saying Brian was completely reduced to no influence after Friends, but he was no longer the "dictator", directing the style, production and overall sound of each album, sequencing them, involving himself with all the tracks, etc etc.

Brian's work on Ole' Man River and some of the other sessions at the time, for the followup to Friends, *was* stymied. That much is documented. After that, it's clear that Brian was not an active participant in the 20/20 sessions. Tracks like "Do It Again" were already in the can before the other Boys (or at least Michael) "vetoed" his Ole' Man River related Projects (Walk On By was being worked on at this point too I think). Brian stepped back in a way he never had before. The other guys added Our Prayer and Cabinessence to make up for the lack of Brian involvement, and Brian may have disapproved of their inclusion (I've read conflicting reports on this).

Later albums like Sunflower and Surf's Up feature great new Brian songs but he is no longer the prime album producer, shaping the overall sound of most of the tracks. To me this is intuitive as I listen to an album like Sunflower, which I know is loved (and I like it very much) but the production decisions are clearly being made by a number of different individuals and it just *feels* different. This continues on until the "Brian is Back" period, really.

Maybe the other guys didn't overtly "take away" control from Brian in the way I described; I may have overplayed my hand there. But clearly, a major change occurred in the group dynamic following Friends, which may have been a decision from Brian himself more than the other guys (a lack of interest in working on the Stephen Foster track didn't mean the Boys didn't want Brian to lead anymore, but Brian might have taken it that way).

[RONDEMON]

GREAT interview. One of the best insights into that period from the man himself. Thanks!

IMO I don't think he gave up control OR that it was taken away.
I think he was either bored or he felt creatively bankrupt to an extent as he says he flat out says that he feels like he's "run out of ideas."

It's interesting to hear his take on why the Smile sessions were halted. I wish there were more interviews like this - seems so off the cuff and casual.

[Rocker]

It's interesting to note that the interviewer acts like the Beach Boys were still relevant at the time.

[MBE]

I think it is in Kingsley Abbott's article collection "Back To The Beach"-Revised Edition. It is an outtake from a 1981 interview done for Musician magazine by Geoffry Himes. Carl says that he first noticed Brian had a real drug problem during those sessions. In Jon and David's book they don't list an exact date, but Brian and Dave started hanging out for a while in 1971-72. David stopped going over when Brian became worse over that short period.

The "Ole Man River" thing was a big deal briefly. It seems he gave up on leading the 20/20 sessions after that but not participating. Still a number of people told me Brian still had to supervise, and indeed in 1988 in an interview included in an earlier book compiled by Abbott "A Tortured Life" Brian says he didn't feel they could completely make a track without him until 1971. Meaning that he had some sort of hand in basically all the 1968-70 cuts even if it was to just offer suggestions or to approve it for release. "20/20" and "Sunflower" Brian had something to do with how they were sequenced and even mixed as Desper would pipe things to Brian in mono so he could properly hear the sound. The mono stereo thing was another thing Brian had to adjust to and after stereo became mandatory because of his hearing  he always has had someone to help him do the final mix.  Another quote from Brian around that time in one of the Abbott books I mentioned, Brian says that he first began to feel things slip creatively in 1971 for himself.

Back to "20/20" Brian approved of the "Smile" songs being used and worked on them. I don't want to reveal everything in my interviews here, but the details on why he didn't mind these but minded "Surf's Up" is detailed in my book.  Stymied to me means that he wasn't allowed to do it which isn't the case. It was a creative difference that was taken badly by Brian which is kind of what you said at the end. I don't think Mike forced Brian to stop working on "Ole Man River", he simply didn't want to keep having to go through it again or didn't like the idea. If Brian wanted the tracks to come out he would have put them on there, but in this case he probably went off the idea because of the perceived lack of support. To me that's part of why Smile didn't happen because he "perceived" that Mike or Van Dyke or whoever wasn't with him. Mike backed down, Van Dyke left partly to do a solo LP and also to give the group space, yet (and I think the 1968 interview proves this) ultimately Brian was burnt out on the project and he alone stopped it.

There was nothing to stop Brian in 1967-71 from doing what he wanted. During the time Desper was there if Brian wanted to work everybody else stopped whatever else they were doing. They all deferred to Brian then. That obviously would change quite a bit afterwards but partly that's because Brian stopped participating on a regular basis in 1972. They even tried to put Brian back in charge in 1976-77, but despite a partial recovery he was in no shape to really lead a band.
 
"Sunflower" Brian was back in pretty good shape. The original "Add Some Music" lineup had his input as did the final version of the album. Bruce has talked about "Sunflower" being the last time Brian was seen as the leader or acted in that role. Carl did have a lot to do with putting together the album, as he had on "20/20", but he again deferred to Brian's ideas when they were offered. The use of "Surf's Up" was the first time they really didn't. Brian eventually worked on the track, but I feel this is where the real divide happened with him and the others.  One thing I picked up in the Gaines book was on how the change from the "Add Some Music" line up to the "Sunflower" line up happened. It was noted that the Warner execs went to Brian's house to talk to him about changing the album. I believe this led to him reworking "Cool, Cool, Water".  Brian mentioned he didn't like the middle section much in an interview at the time, but he and Carl both put it together and he approved it for release with no problem during the sessions. I think he felt this more on reflection once the LP was out.

In late 1970 Brian did an interview where he says he isn't writing much the last few months, and didn't feel he lead the group. He even talked about his panic attack on stage at the Whiskey. Still he admitted he enjoyed it the first night, and part of the problem was how much the sound was hurting his ear. In an interview earlier in the year, he mentioned how much he loved doing the tour when he replaced Mike. Brian had a panic attack then too, but went on to enjoy it. Interesting to note that Brian says how happy he was in the interview in late 1970. I take this all into consideration, but though the group was much more of a collective after "Friends", he was still the only one who could have made everyone stop what they were working on so he could record. He still had the power even if he didn't always use it or on his worst days realize it.

Even in 1971 Brian may for the first time not have written much, but he still was there musically, vocally, as an arranger, and as a producer. There he was more of a participant as Johnston put it, but again it should be noted that it was only after the 1971 LP that he really gave up. One other thing I should mention is that there was a great Brian interview in 1976 where he talks of the changes in 1972 (I think it was for Sounds magazine it was in yet another Abbott collection called "The Later Years") and that he had what he considered his second major nervous breakdown in Holland.

Anyhow yes it can be said that the Beach Boys were a democracy after "Friends," but Brian was still the main man when he chose to be until the issue of "Surf's Up" arose and his subsequent drug abuse made him lose interest or self belief. One last thing, Brian noted to Byron Priess that the failure in the USA of the late sixties and early seventies singles ( I would say "Friends" "Break Away" and "Add Some Music" were the ones he was thinking of most) really got to him. Brian never understood that his work was valid even when it didn't do well. This really did add to why he pulled back. Also his interests got diverted elsewhere, in a 1973 interview Brian said that for the last two years Spring was his main group.

[MBE]

It's interesting to note that the interviewer acts like the Beach Boys were still relevant at the time.

This was done very early in 1968 and nothing had missed the top 40 yet except for Smiley. I feel it was after the troubles on tour in spring 1968 (MLK shot, the Maharishi tour), and the failure of "Friends" as a single and LP that they were really out of the US scene.

[mammy blue]

IMO I don't think he gave up control OR that it was taken away.
I think he was either bored or he felt creatively bankrupt to an extent as he says he flat out says that he feels like he's "run out of ideas."

That may be true, but the timing just seems to suggest otherwise.

1. Inspired by TM, Brian immerses himself into the full production of BB tracks in a way that he mostly hasn't since Smile, for the Friends album.

2. The Friends album charts very poorly, and for the first time, the album doesn't have even a minor US hit. Brian is reportedly devastated, and his confidence is undermined, as may be the other BB's confidence in the musical direction they have been taking.

3. Still undeterred, Brian begins work on the next album, collaborating with Mike on Do It Again and working obsessively on a few other, less overtly commercial tracks, most notably 'Ole Man River. Brian's obsessive tinkering with this track come to a grinding halt when he is told by the group that they're tired of it and they refuse to work on it any more.

4. Immediately after this happens, Brian withdraws from the remaining 20/20 sessions and reportedly enters a period with serious psychiatric symptoms.

[mammy blue]

Wow Mike, thanks for your insights! Very interesting. This period of BB history (post Smile) is generally way oversimplified and I am in basic agreement with your take on it.

[MBE]

IMO I don't think he gave up control OR that it was taken away.
I think he was either bored or he felt creatively bankrupt to an extent as he says he flat out says that he feels like he's "run out of ideas."

That may be true, but the timing just seems to suggest otherwise.

1. Inspired by TM, Brian immerses himself into the full production of BB tracks in a way that he mostly hasn't since Smile, for the Friends album.Nope he was very into Smiley and Wild Honey

2. The Friends album charts very poorly, and for the first time, the album doesn't have even a minor US hit. Brian is reportedly devastated, and his confidence is undermined, as may be the other BB's confidence in the musical direction they have been taking. "Friends" was a minor hit at #47 but the rest is valid
3. Still undeterred, Brian begins work on the next album, collaborating with Mike on Do It Again and working obsessively on a few other, less overtly commercial tracks, most notably 'Ole Man River. Brian's obsessive tinkering with this track come to a grinding halt when he is told by the group that they're tired of it and they refuse to work on it any more. See below
4. Immediately after this happens, Brian withdraws from the remaining 20/20 sessions and reportedly enters a period with serious psychiatric symptoms.Brian worked on the rest of the album check the Belagio website that Andrew Doe runs through the Endless Summer Quarterly.http://esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs68.html. Brian worked the rest of the year quite frequently. Also they didn't refuse, they just wanted to do more than one song. Brian was not told he couldn't do it, it was only questioned why he kept doing it. The cause of his brief hospital stay in 1968 isn't known. Marilyn has said she was worried about him when she saw him crying over Carnie's crib, maybe he was freaked out he would turn out like his own dad. Who knows, but she has also said he was a happy father the first few years even going in the crib at times himself to sleep by her. Must have been a huge crib![/b]

[MBE]

Wow Mike, thanks for your insights! Very interesting. This period of BB history (post Smile) is generally way oversimplified and I am in basic agreement with your take on it.

Glad you liked it. I hope the four points I made after also give insight particularly about the recording sessions on Andrew's site.

[LostArt]

So Mike, when is your book coming out?

[mammy blue]

Nope he was very into Smiley and Wild Honey

What I meant by a return to "full production" for Friends was, Brian had more complete arrangements worked out again for most of the tracks, like he used to work, before Smiley and Wild Honey.

Oh and I don't think a placement outside of top 40 qualifies as a real "hit", and I'm sure it didn't to Brian at the time.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Brian worked on the rest of the album check the Belagio website that Andrew Doe runs through the Endless Summer Quarterly.http://esquarterly.com/bellagio/gigs68.html. Brian worked the rest of the year quite frequently.

Checking Doe's site, to me, shows the opposite of what you're suggesting. In late May/early to mid June there are a bunch of Brian-led tracks being laid down: Do It Again, Walk on By, We're Together Again, I Went to Sleep, Sail Plane Song, Ol' Man River, Walkin'. After that there are only a handful of sessions until September when the rest band starts to do more of their own songs (or old Brian songs), none of which predominantly feature Brian on vocals: Never Learn Not To Love, I Can Hear Music, Time To Get Alone, Be With Me, Bluebirds Over The Mountain, A Time to Live in Dreams, Our Prayer, Cottonfields, Cabinessence, All I Want to Do. Seems like pulling back significantly to me. Not one of those songs was a new Brian track and there's very little Brian on them.

I think Andrew recently placed Murry's selling of the Beach Boys music at around that time.

[MBE]

 Time To Get Alone (Brian sings most of the lead and wrote it),  Our Prayer, Cottonfields, Cabinessence all had Brian adding new things to them with the last 3 Brian productions. I don't think that's shabby.

[Jim V.]

Time To Get Alone (Brian sings most of the lead and wrote it),  Our Prayer, Cottonfields, Cabinessence all had Brian adding new things to them with the last 3 Brian productions. I don't think that's shabby.

The "Surf's Up" thing interests me. Because he eventually worked on that too, and according to Jack Rieley, he promised him he'd put it on the next album. I don't wanna have you spill the beans if its something you wanna hold for your book, but I'm kinda wondering what exactly it was.

[Shane]

My impression of this interview seems to be in line with most of the people in this thread.  Brian seems to be excited, willing, and able to make an album exactly like Friends.  He went through a period where his work got too complex, intricate, and overwhelming (GV, Smile), then he freaked out and spent two albums making music that was scaled back, almost not produced (Smile Smile, Wild Honey), and now he wants to make an album that is not a huge production, but intricate and produced enough to creatively satisfy himself.  This was a time where Brian was trying to put the Smile debacle behind him, and trying to find a sense of peace.  Of course, trouble was on the horizon. 

The interviewer does indeed treat the Beach Boys as though they were still very relevant.  I believe this would have been a time where "Darlin" would have still been on the charts.  So possibly the positivity in the air in January 1968 may have been filled with the hope that the Beach Boys would soon return to form, chartwise. 

It is also interesting to glean from this interview that the cover photo for Stack-o-tracks was shot sometime before this interview.  One of my favorite Beach Boys covers.

[MBE]

Time To Get Alone (Brian sings most of the lead and wrote it),  Our Prayer, Cottonfields, Cabinessence all had Brian adding new things to them with the last 3 Brian productions. I don't think that's shabby.

The "Surf's Up" thing interests me. Because he eventually worked on that too, and according to Jack Rieley, he promised him he'd put it on the next album. I don't wanna have you spill the beans if its something you wanna hold for your book, but I'm kinda wondering what exactly it was.

He did come around on it, but I think it marked a turning point as far as Brian's desire to work with the group. I don't know if he told Jack that or not. Rieley's stories are a little hard to take 100 percent on face value.

 I may have even mentioned why "Surf's Up" was seen differently by him before, but yes right now I am afraid I have to make this one a teaser.

[MBE]

My impression of this interview seems to be in line with most of the people in this thread.  Brian seems to be excited, willing, and able to make an album exactly like Friends.  He went through a period where his work got too complex, intricate, and overwhelming (GV, Smile), then he freaked out and spent two albums making music that was scaled back, almost not produced (Smile Smile, Wild Honey), and now he wants to make an album that is not a huge production, but intricate and produced enough to creatively satisfy himself.  This was a time where Brian was trying to put the Smile debacle behind him, and trying to find a sense of peace.  Of course, trouble was on the horizon. 

The interviewer does indeed treat the Beach Boys as though they were still very relevant.  I believe this would have been a time where "Darlin" would have still been on the charts.  So possibly the positivity in the air in January 1968 may have been filled with the hope that the Beach Boys would soon return to form, chartwise. 

It is also interesting to glean from this interview that the cover photo for Stack-o-tracks was shot sometime before this interview.  One of my favorite Beach Boys covers.

Good comments.

[Jim V.]

Time To Get Alone (Brian sings most of the lead and wrote it),  Our Prayer, Cottonfields, Cabinessence all had Brian adding new things to them with the last 3 Brian productions. I don't think that's shabby.

The "Surf's Up" thing interests me. Because he eventually worked on that too, and according to Jack Rieley, he promised him he'd put it on the next album. I don't wanna have you spill the beans if its something you wanna hold for your book, but I'm kinda wondering what exactly it was.

He did come around on it, but I think it marked a turning point as far as Brian's desire to work with the group. I don't know if he told Jack that or not. Rieley's stories are a little hard to take 100 percent on face value.

 I may have even mentioned why "Surf's Up" was seen differently by him before, but yes right now I am afraid I have to make this one a teaser.

Fair enough! Now get that book out!

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Time To Get Alone (Brian sings most of the lead and wrote it),  Our Prayer, Cottonfields, Cabinessence all had Brian adding new things to them with the last 3 Brian productions. I don't think that's shabby.

Sorry, but I think that's the exact definition of shabby. First, he doesn't sing most of the lead on Time to Get Alone. Yes, Brian wrote it, a year earlier. In other words, what I said was exactly true - the man who had written nearly all the original material up to this point  brought exactly zero new songs to sessions where 12 or so new songs were recorded. I'd say that is exactly backing away. And I'd be curious to know what his contributions to Our Prayer, Cottonfields, Cabinessence were. He certainly doesn't add too much vocally whereas he was all over the vocals recorded that summer. Compared to his work just months before, this constitutes a signficant break.

[Jim V.]

Time To Get Alone (Brian sings most of the lead and wrote it),  Our Prayer, Cottonfields, Cabinessence all had Brian adding new things to them with the last 3 Brian productions. I don't think that's shabby.

Sorry, but I think that's the exact definition of shabby. First, he doesn't sing most of the lead on Time to Get Alone. Yes, Brian wrote it, a year earlier. In other words, what I said was exactly true - the man who had written nearly all the original material up to this point  brought exactly zero new songs to sessions where 12 or so new songs were recorded. I'd say that is exactly backing away. And I'd be curious to know what his contributions to Our Prayer, Cottonfields, Cabinessence were. He certainly doesn't add too much vocally whereas he was all over the vocals recorded that summer. Compared to his work just months before, this constitutes a signficant break.

I kinda agree with rockandroll. Although I do have a few points to make. Brian does sing the chorus of "Time to Get Alone", which is quite a bit of it. So that's "new" work. And he did produce the 20/20 version of "Cotton Fields". So I'll give Mike Eder credit for those. But from what I've known, Brian wasn't involved in the 1968 work on "Our Prayer" and "Cabinessence". And basically overall, the only 20/20 songs to substantially have 1968 Brian involvement were "Do It Again", "Cotton Fields", "I Went to Sleep" and "Time to Get Alone". And basically the only new song he had on 20/20 was "I Went to Sleep".

So yeah, that's a lot less than Friends.

[PongHit]

This interview was recorded exactly 44-years ago, today — anyone who hasn't yet should check it out.

[Rocker]

Since Brian talks about Stack o' tracks I thought it was the right place to post this picture I just found on the web:

[silodweller]

I know this is a long shot but does anyone have this interview?  It would seem that I missed it when it was originally posted! 

[humanoidboogie]

I know this is a long shot but does anyone have this interview?  It would seem that I missed it when it was originally posted! 

I second that request. The original link is down...