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Author Topic: SMiLE: my theory on what would have happened in '67  (Read 4177 times)
adamghost
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« on: December 27, 2011, 01:28:20 PM »

OK, I'm not nearly as much of a SMiLE obsessive as most of the folks on here.  Though I love the music and have a nerdy streak a mile wide about the BBs and other things, the nuts and bolts and what session happened when was always above my pay grade.  And I didn't even pick up a copy of the sessions disc (the two CD version) until Friday, when I was driving up to San Francisco to spend time with family.

I was really struck by a few things listening to it, and it dawned on me that I think we can make a fairly good guess as to what would have wound up being on the CD, and what would have happened next, just by virtue of the evidence at hand.

The first thing that hit me is that, as a lot of other people had noted, there was way too much to have fit on a traditional '66-'67 LP, and a lot of the pieces just weren't ever going to fit smoothly.  So what really would have had to have happened in late '66 for Brian to finish the thing is pretty simple:  he would have to have whittle down what he had to a manageable album. That's the real secret to SMiLE:  Brian just kept recording until he realized he had to assemble it at some point, and it really was an impossible task.  So for all the other things going on, for it to have been finished, at some point Brian would have to have been willing to say "it's done" and cut bait.

So what would have been on SMiLE?  Well, we can be fairly sure of the following tracks:

Heroes And Villians
Cabinessence
Surf's Up
Wonderful
Good Vibrations
Wind Chimes
Do You Like Worms
Our Prayer

I've got various reasons for picking these 8 and not the others...not the least of which is all but one of them appeared on later albums, so they were considered completed songs worthy of release.  I'll get to why not "Vegetables" and "Love To Say Da Da" in a second.

Anyway, you take those 8 songs and you have a running time of 22 minutes, although I suspect the SMiLE version of H&V would have been shorter. "Child Is The Father Of The Man" and "Fire" were clearly part of the mix as of the end of '66, so that gets you to 10.  After that, though, it's a bit problematic...which may be why Brian didn't just say "screw it, I'm done" in Jan. 67 and put out what he had.  Because he had tons of fragments but not quite an album's worth of SONGS.  But if he had really been completion-oriented, you have a whole track for "Holidays" ready to roll, and then "Great Shape/Barnyard" gets you there.  Note, however, to get to a finished 12 track album how many lyric-less (or vocal-less) songs you have to put in the mix, as opposed to fragments.  Another clue as to why Brian just didn't put out what he had.  It seems that by Jan. '67 it was easier or more comfortable to just keep recording new stuff than finish up what he already had half finished.

Anyway, my point is, if SMiLE HAD come out in early '67, it would have had to have been a much tighter, song-oriented album to fit the 35 minutes vinyl limit.  So a lot of what we know of as "SMILE" would have been tossed out.

So what I think would have happened is that SMiLE would have eventually formed the basis of TWO albums.  My suspicion is that the extra H & V material would have would up as the B-side for the single, since in the context of a shorter album all the variations on the theme would have gotten old quickly, and you couldn't very well put it on the next album.  So figure a 12-track album with the major tracks from SMiLE that we know and love in early '67, and then a later '67 or '68 album that utilized the leftover fragments plus the tracks that were done later.  "Vegetables," "Love To Say Dada" (yes I know it's part of the elements theoretically, but I'm going under the assumption that Brian's only real window for completing the album was early '67, and this song didn't exist yet IIRC), and other things along the lines of "Can't Wait Too Long," plus fragments that Brian would have probably had to winnow down from SMiLE to finish it.  I think this almost would have HAD to have happened...Brian nearly always recycles good material, and it couldn't have all gone on the album.

So imagine, if you will, a 12-track SMiLe in Feb. '67, and then a third album in a "Beach Boys arty album" trilogy with this kind of a track list:

Vegetables
I Love To Say Dada
He Gives Speeches
Can't Wait Too Long
Look
I Wanna Be Around
Little Pad
Time To Get Alone
My Only Sunshine/Old Master Painter

We can quibble over exact tracks and what happened when or what would have been this or that, but I think this is by far the most likely scenario of how a real-world release of SMiLE would have played out.  I don't think after Feb. '67 the album was viable any more.  Brian's heart wasn't in it and he'd lost the confidence of the band and the label (not to mention the lawsuit).  But if it could have come out, he might have recouped the situation somewhat.  And it's easy to imagine the perimeters of the follow up to SMiLE on that basis.

BUT...would it have been allowed to happen?  Beach Boys fans may consider this heresy, but I cannot imagine any scenario by which SMiLE would have been a runaway hit album.  Respected, yes, even possibly successful a la PET SOUNDS, but unlike Sgt. Pepper's, the music is so disconnected from the pop music structure that it would have been hard for a large portion of the audience to grasp.  It is much closer to a Zappa record than anything else in the psychedelic production landscape of the time.  I do not hear ANY song on SMiLE that could have been a hit single.  "Heroes" did well to get to #12.  I do think the "cantina" version would have done better, but other than that, what's the next single?  "Wonderful" and "Wind Chimes" are the only ones that approach a typical song structure, but they're just not radio songs.  I could see them maybe getting to mid-chart as "Caroline No" did, but no further.  The rest?  Forget it...too weird, too short, too long.

So one wonders if, on the release of SMiLE, things would have gone down in a very similar way.  Brian would have brought forth this very weird, very brave, album, asked everyone to trust him, and not delivered a huge hit with it.  "Good Vibrations" is what bought him the ability to go down this road, and if he didn't deliver another one, it's unlikely he would have been allowed to continue in the same esoteric vein.  The dividends would have paid off much further down the road.  So I'm not sure that Brian would have been allowed to maintain the resolutely uncommercial direction that he had with SMiLE.  

But anyway, that's my thesis...a whittled down 12-track album in early '67, and then possibly a similar but less ambitious album later in the year or early the next containing much of what we think of as SMiLE plus bits and pieces that came later.  My guess is that neither would have been that commercially successful, but it might have positioned the BBs better artistically and allowed Brian's psyche a softer landing.  But it all might have gone down exactly the same.  It's easy to imagine a scenario like that and then the band's discography being essentially the same from WILD HONEY or FRIENDS onward, but without the SMiLE fragments to buttress them.

That's my theory.  It's worth...about as much as yours!   but I do think based on things we know had to have happened (the political situation at the time, the physical confines of a vinyl record, what would have had to have been done to finish on time), it's a very likely scenario.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 01:32:53 PM by adamghost » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2011, 01:52:11 PM »

Thats a very interesting idea of having a second album, I'd never actually considered that idea. But I do agree, SMiLE probably wouldn't have been much more successful than pet sounds was, only reaching where is got due to the hype surrounding it in the first place!
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« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2011, 02:37:08 PM »

I agree, Brian did release a weird little album and maybe SMiLE would have performed about the same. However, Capitol was bending over backwards to have Brian release the rest of SMiLE, even double release some of SMiLE, as a second album and he didn't do it.

I also agree Brian was not trying to keep all of these fragments in play. Too much material was not a problem. I think he wrote the songs first, he recorded them in sections, and when he rewrote them he only recorded what he needed for where he wanted it and the rest went on the bone pile. He didn't record fragments hoping he could find a place for them, he recorded sections as he needed them and threw them aside as he didn't need them. He would go to the bone pile if it suited him but only for something he wanted for a certain place not like we think about it as everything recorded for no specific purpose and all kept in the air while he struggled to find them a place. I think us describing them as modules doesn't help, they weren't really modules they were sections. I assume he wrote in sections like song structure is, creating sections to go with each other in a particular way. Brian's innovation was to record the songs in their sections, this allowed him more ease and flexibility when he made changes, not less. We take it too far when we suggest that it shows uncertainty or indecisiveness in his method, he declared his certainty and decisiveness on every recording with slates, notes and comments. It was the opposite, recording in sections allowed him to be more concise and flexible and organized in his construction of what he had already decided to do. IMO.
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« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2011, 04:57:16 PM »

Very interesting speculations, adamghost and Cam.  I agree with you both that SMiLE would not, under any circumstances, have been a game-changer album for '60s music.  But it would have been very highly regarded by the developing "rock intelligencia" of the day, I think.  Strangely enough, I think that had SMiLE been released in '67 in any form that included the best of the sessions, it would probably have about the same significance in popular music that it has earned by being the "Holy Grail of Rock and Roll" for four decades.

It is forever fascinating to speculate over just what form a '67 SMiLE would have taken.  I think adamghost is right that we can be fairly sure of what most of the content of a '67 SMiLE would have been.  I've been working on my own LP-length fan mix for a while, and since I procured the box set with some Christmas bonus money, I've taken yet another stab at it, and I'm more satisfied with the results than ever before.  One fact I suddenly realized on reading the box set liner notes is that a piece I'd always considered integral to a '67 SMiLE "Elements"--the "Water Chant"--is actually a post-SMiLE-era recording (I should have known from that Bel-Air organ sustained chord--how stupid of me!). That alone sent me back to the drawing board.

The idea is to present an album within around 40 minutes playing time (20 minutes per side), which actually wouldn't have been unprecedented in '67 (Pet Sounds had already clocked in at around 19 minutes per side), an album that could have been rush-released by June of '67 at the latest. It is a very conventional format, with bands of silence between each selection (though the selections themselves are very unconventional, several of them containing two or more sections that could be construed as different songs spliced together).

So here's what I now have, and it makes for a really grand listening experience:

"Side One"
1. Intro ("Our Prayer", of course)
2. Heroes and Villains (utilizing the "Heroes and Villains Intro" we now associate with "Elements: Fire", followed by the early '67 single version fused with "I'm In Great Shape" and a fade out of "Barnyard")
3. Do You Like Worms
4. Cabin Essence
5. Wonderful (with "He Gives Speeches" as an intro)
6. Good Vibrations

"Side Two"
7. Vega-Tables/Child Is Father Of The Man (connected by "bop bop bop bop, du-du doot, du-du doot"--I've always liked linking them)
8. Wind Chimes
9. The Elements (Here's the tricky one.  I've always felt that any successful '67 SMiLE has to have a fully realized "Elements" beyond just lumping "Vega-Tables", "Wind Chimes" and "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" together.  This time, I tried something new.  Using the piano postlude of the old "Wind Chimes" as "Air", part 2 of "Love To Say Da Da" as "Water", "Bag of Tricks" as "Earth", and of course "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" as "Fire"--a very nice combination.  I'll take it.)
10. "Surf's Up"
11. "The Old Master Painter/You Are My Sunshine" (careful to include what we call "Barnshine" for that "big finale" feel)

It clocks in at just barely over 40 minutes.  I think it would have been considered a nice "epic-length" album for the times, and would have gotten very good press.  As has already been noted, I don't think it would have been a monstrously huge seller, but it probably would have topped out Pet Sounds just by the power of public expectation and the fact that '67 was the "freak-out year" for pop music the world over.  It would have been a conversation piece of the first order.  And its stature would have been guarenteed to grow with passing years just as that of Pet Sounds has.  

And we would have ended up with a huge box set of sessions--probably a lot earlier--and the album would probably have spawned as many indie music artists' careers released as it did unreleased.  And we'd be here today, about where we are.  I really think that's what would have happened.  Funny, isn't it?  

Anyway, I'm really glad the story has a happy ending.  I'm happy for Brian.  He's a lucky guy, to be sure, as it turns out.
 
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 05:11:53 PM by Reverend Rock » Logged
soniclovenoize
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« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2011, 05:17:09 PM »

Hey adamghost, interesting post, but I don't see any indication that it would have been a double album or at least issued in two parts.  The very nature of the project left for tons of material on the cutting room floor.  Just look at Good Vibrations alone!  Quantify that by 12, possibly by 24 if you want to say the material was twice as complex!

I think a thing you might have missed is the handwritten tracklist; yes we don't know who wrote it and we can't be certain it's in the correct order, but it is A) written by someone obviously close the the man himself and B) we can deduce what, of all the fragments, were going to be considered for the album.

That should narrow your list down immensely, and it only comes down to what exactly The Elements, I'm In Great Shape and Old Master Painter consisted of (which we have long-standing clues of)...  

I posted the following in another thread, and I thought you might find it interesting.  It's how I deduced what the 67 tracklist would be like.  It was refused of course, but I still stand by my logic that Side A would open with the hit-single they want to promote at the time (H&V) and Side B opens with the single that was already released, prior to the album, the label's cash cow; and the most "epic" of sings closing each side.  My example of Pet Sounds being a model of this was flawed, I admit, but my theory still stands, and that is exactly what happened on Smiley Smile, as well as many many albums of the time.  The middle parts can be arranged to fit on two 18-minute sides, but can easily be linked musically...  I don't know where the info that there would be 12 stand-alone songs, because I thought the idea of the album was to have all those 12 songs linked just as the individual pieces of Heroes and Villains were linked, thus having two continuous sides.  

Anyways...  

1) Handwritten tracklist
Just because it's not in Brian's handwriting doesn't mean it's not valid.  It clearly came from a close source to the center of the operation.  To discredit it because of the handwriting instead of the content is silly.  In my view, it is simply the list of the likely contenders for the album, not truely the correct running order (hence the note).  The things it excludes were either fragments or unfinished instrumentals and not real contenders for SMiLE anyways...  Lots of neat things on the cutting room floor, but that was the nature of the beast.  So, you can start with those twelve tracks, plus Our Prayer (for an uncredited 13th).  

2) Side openers
As common practice at the time for pop albums, the lead single would open the album--as Wouldn't It be Nice did on Pet Sounds.  So after Our Prayer, we have Heroes and Villains, which is what many people believe anyways.  Furthermore, we know it most likely would have been the February Cantina version.  The theoretical "Part 2" probably would not have been on the album, staying as an exclusive b-side to the 7".  Now, since we know that Good Vibrations was not originally part of the album, but capitol pushed it on, the logical placement would be the opening of side B, fitting the same exact scenario as Sloop John B on Pet Sounds.  This is again something many already figured.  GV's reason to be concluding these modern sequences was for the purpose of the live show: it's a set closer, not an album closer!  

3) Side closers
George Martin once said that you'd always want to end the sides of an album with the song that could not be logically followed or topped.  I believe Brian was adopting this policy because not only it makes bombastic albums, but he heeded to compete with his brothers across the ocean.  What two songs from the remaining 10 fit that bill?  Quite obviously Surf's Up and Cabin Essence.  I've always maintained that Surf's Up was intentionally written as the sort of epic ending to the album, Brian's A Day In The Life.  So if we place Surf's Up at the conclusion of side B, that leaves Cabin Essence as an excellent close for side A.  

4) remaining meat of the SMiLE sandwich
Now we have 8 songs left: Do You Like Worms?, Wonderful, Child is Father, Old Master Painter, I'm In Great Shape, Vege-Tables, Wind Chimes, and The Elements.  This is the tough one...  How do we fill in this meat of the SMiLE sandwich now that we've constructed the bread of H&V and Cabin Essence, and Good Vibrations and Surf's Up?  

It's really impossible to say.  Did Brian have a dual concept or was this just a collection of experimental pop-songs?  Judging by the twelve contenders, I'd say you could possibly devide them into the two concepts Elemental & Americana just as has been suggested by Dominic so long ago.  I do remember Brian saying back in 2004 that his intention was to make two suites back in 67, but now there's three (for the live show).   Also, if he was going to create an entire album of Good Vibrations-esque modular songwriting, logic would dictate that that would include interconnected/segued songs: you would end up having two continuous sides of music.  I don't think that was just a clever construction by Darian, but something that was intended all along (although the specific connections were made by him).  

So with that said, how can we match up these songs in what way to fill out two 4-song groups, surrounded by their designated 'bread'?  Putting aside the conceptual analysis as it's been done to death and is very subjective, let's try to look at the more musical, something more objective.  What things can we match up?   Wonderful's cold ending was meant to be a hard edit into the next song...  
When I first heard the segue from Wonderful into Look on the live bootlegs of the SMiLE tour, I nearly pooped my pants.  OF COURSE!  Why didn't I think of that before!?  A common musical arrangement of some of the songs is that arpeggiated piano phrase, found in Look, Wonderful and the minor-key verse of Child is Father.  I do believe that was Brian's intent all along, not just a clever idea by Darian!  But remove Look from the picture since it was not of the 12, we're left with Wonderful and Child is Father matching up...  

The ending cello notes of Child is Father is the same as the beginning of Old Master Painter, something I believe is more than coincidence.  I only just realized this a month ago when The SMiLE Sessions came out.  Just too perfect...  

Switching gears, let's look for matching musical motifs...  Heroes and Villains and Do You Like Worms have similar piano phrases with different arrangements, borrowed from eachother.  The same with Wind Chimes and the I Love To Say Da-Da (which logically would be included with The Elements), the piano rhythm and chord sequences, the movement of the bass notes.  Listening to some of the Da-Da outtakes, I wouldn't be surprised if the two songs were meant to be siblings!  

So what does this all mean?  We know that the following should be grouped together:

a) H&V -> DYLW
b) Wonderful -> Child
c) Child -> OMP
d) Wind Chimes -> Da-Da (Elements )

Looking at points a) b) and c) we can see that a Side A has been created!  That leaves I'm In Great Shape and Vege-Tables as stand alone tracks, left to fill in the gaps for Side B.  That side is nearly arbitrary, as you have some interchangeable tracks, as we still don't know exactly what constituted I'm In Great Shape and The Elements; I will simply for the sake of argument, take a common sequencing for Side B (more than a coincidence?).  Let's look at our blueprint thus far:

SIDE A
(Our Prayer)
1. Heroes and Villains
2. Do You Like Worms?
3. Wonderful
4. Child is Father of The Man
5. Old Master Painter
6. Cabin Essence

SIDE B
7. Good Vibrations
8. I'm In Great Shape
9. Vege-Tables
10. Wind Chimes
11. The Elements
12. Surf's Up

If you time out both sides, they appear to 18 minutes or so... pretty balanced!  Feel free to tear away at my theories...
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 05:24:32 PM by soniclovenoize » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2011, 05:25:57 PM »

I recall at the time buying, in '66, the caroline no, wouldn'titbenice, god only knows singles, and then buying pet sounds, but not really listening much to it. bought good vibrations single and then heroes and villains. none of my friends were interested at all in hearing any of this.

Now that we've got the TSS, I'm having a hard time imagining what would have happened had some version of it been released back then. when smiley arrived, i listened a couple of times, took it in the back yard and smashed it on a rock. too strange, too creepy at the time, too funny and barbershoppy (so to speak).

in other words, it took me a very long time to be able to hear what all this was about, and, at the time, even being a (terrible) musician back then, i couldn't manage it properly. BAck then, I wouldn't have liked Smile being released...i don't think?!?

listening to recent stereo fanmixes, i'm quite convinced that it really is nuts and unbelievably so--complex, detailed, obsessive, beautiful, thrilling...and I'm not sure if it wouldn't have flopped worse than pet sounds in '67.

it really is an interesting exercise to now be able to at least imagine it having been released years ago, now that we have a relatively coherent version of what could have been...and trying to fit it back into those times and that mood and music scene of 1967...
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« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2011, 06:00:54 PM »

I dunno, I think that the Smile box set undersells what the album would have been (out of necessity of course).  So much of the music sounds like it could be finished because it sounds so great, but the tracks that were actually finished are so much richer than the unfinished ones, as much as many of us love them. Imagine a Surf's Up where the same kind of care taken with the first two minute's backing track was taken with the rest.  I strongly believe that the seemingly "lesser" tracks, like Do You Like Worms, Child is the Father of the Man, and The Elements would have been finished to the same level of complexity and detail as Cabinessence or Good Vibrations (or even Vegetables, with it's six part counterpoint harmonies on the fade).  Of course, that would have taken time, which is in my opinion the biggest reason it didn't happen. 

And while its hard to say how Smile would have done commercially, I think that artistically it would be seen as a towering, towering, earth shattering record.  In early 1967, before A Day in the Life or Strawberry Fields, Surf's Up would have absolutely blown minds. 

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« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2011, 06:11:22 PM »

I didn't "miss" the track list (yes, I'm not as up on SMiLE as some, but I'm not exactly shallow in my Beach Boys knowledge, either)...I think it's valid evidence, but my point is not about what was INTENDED to be on the album as of late fall '66, but how if Brian had set out to finish the thing off in Jan. '67, what he would have had to work with and the limitations he would have been working under.  The album cover is only relevant if, at that point, Brian had said, "well sh*t, the album says these songs, I have to make it these songs."  And there's no evidence that Brian was ever CONSTRAINED by what was on the album cover.  Quite the reverse, he kept recording stuff and working on songs that weren't on it.  So it's irrelevant in terms of this thought experiment.

I never said I thought SMiLE was going to be a double album or a two part album, and I'm fully aware there was no talk of such at the time.  I said he would have had to have left a lot off stuff off, and based on his standard MO, he almost certainly would have used that stuff on the next project as a building block for something else...my guess would be some kind of hybrid of SMiLE and a better produced, more ambitious WILD HONEY, ergo material from '67-'68 a la "Can't Wait Too Long" and "Time To Get Alone" coupled with whatever leftovers from SMiLE were reworked into finished songs.

I get why you misunderstood what I was saying; the two ideas are similar, but they are not the same.  I'm just saying you can guess what SMiLE would have been like, and what the next album after that might well have been like based on the fact he probably would have used leftovers from SMiLE to make it, and where he actually did wind up going in '67-'68.

I think your track listing is cool.  It's as good or better guess as mine was.  As to the EXACT track listing, there's no way to know, and it could have gone down a number of ways.  But you can make a pretty solid assumption as to about what would have been on it, and what would have been likely to happen next.  A lot of that stuff is just baked in the cake once you take a step back and see the perimeters of the industry, the times, and the situation.

I think everyone's right about the artistic impact, but I'm not sure in the short term it would have mattered that much.  There wouldn't have been a hit on it, and Capitol and the band would have had a problem with that.  It would have definitely bought them more artistic cred, but there are a lot of well-regarded albums from that era that didn't sell, and the bands' careers suffered as a result.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 06:13:19 PM by adamghost » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2011, 06:13:10 PM »



And while its hard to say how Smile would have done commercially, I think that artistically it would be seen as a towering, towering, earth shattering record.  In early 1967, before A Day in the Life or Strawberry Fields, Surf's Up would have absolutely blown minds. 



"Surf's Up" blew minds in '67 with a partial solo performance by Brian on a TV documentary.  I think the greatest "what if" in all of pop music history is what the release of a fully-realized "Surf's Up" in 1967 would have meant for the course of popular music.
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« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2011, 08:11:14 PM »

I'm just saying you can guess what SMiLE would have been like, and what the next album after that might well have been like based on the fact he probably would have used leftovers from SMiLE to make it, and where he actually did wind up going in '67-'68.

I sincerely do not believe that if Smile had been completed then the scattered remains would have been the basis of a followup LP. At this point in his artistic growth BW had almost unbridled musical ambition. He was achieving greatness and I don't think that rummaging through the scrap piles of finished projects was where his head would have been at. My mind boggles at what he and VDP might have attempted next if Smile had been seen through to completion in '67, but I think it would have been another daring original concept.
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« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2011, 08:23:53 PM »

I don't think time was really an issue for Brian, he was already taking 300 percent more time to make a track then almost any other Pop artist just by dedicating one session to producing just one track. He apparently pretty much ignored any pressure from Capitol [if there was any], we often claim Smiley was gotten out quickly just to have product out but even that isn't true. SS took as many sessions as PS and didn't come out for months after assembly.

That said, I don't think he intended to spend a lot of time fussing with anything but the single and he didn't really spend much time on anything but the single.

I doubt VDP would have been asked back by Brian or that VDP would have accepted if he had.
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« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2011, 08:44:30 PM »

Every speculation about what Brian would have done after SMiLE has to take into consideration (even without the conflicts he was having with the Beach Boys) his mental and emotional state.  If Brian had been able to bring SMiLE into a form ready-for-release even by early '67, we would still have to consider the instability of a man who could seriously talk to studio musicians about getting a great take 22 of a track because "22 is the heaviest number in numerology" (of course, it could be argued that one could never tell when Brian was serious or joking--true enough, I concede). 

My guess is that a '67 SMiLE would have left Brian just as seriously in need of a cooling-out period as the collapse of the SMiLE project did.  I can imagine him opting for a "Wild Honey" type album (with higher production values, perhaps) as a follow-up regardless.

It has been argued (and I think it's possibly a valid argument) that in putting out Wild Honey, Brian was "getting back" before "getting back" was cool.
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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2011, 01:51:58 PM »

Every speculation about what Brian would have done after SMiLE has to take into consideration (even without the conflicts he was having with the Beach Boys) his mental and emotional state.  If Brian had been able to bring SMiLE into a form ready-for-release even by early '67, we would still have to consider the instability of a man who could seriously talk to studio musicians about getting a great take 22 of a track because "22 is the heaviest number in numerology" (of course, it could be argued that one could never tell when Brian was serious or joking--true enough, I concede). 

My guess is that a '67 SMiLE would have left Brian just as seriously in need of a cooling-out period as the collapse of the SMiLE project did.  I can imagine him opting for a "Wild Honey" type album (with higher production values, perhaps) as a follow-up regardless.

It has been argued (and I think it's possibly a valid argument) that in putting out Wild Honey, Brian was "getting back" before "getting back" was cool.

I think you're exactly right.  The dynamic and perhaps the severity of the situation would probably have been less fraught and quite a bit different, but the basic outlines of the problem and the direction probably not nearly as much.
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« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2011, 05:52:09 AM »

I think probably the stuff we point to as showing some sort of mental/emotional problems were just the way Brian was with his type of genius.

I don't know about needing to cool out after SMiLE, in actuality he didn't cool out at all, he was working full tilt for the next year.

I think we have overlooked the elephant in the room which was between Brian and VDP, the actual collaborators. I think the "conflicts" with VDP were the problems. Not really conflict but just a plain disagreement of the creative and behavioral. Brian wanted to be snooty, he did it because he could, as he did it he began to feel more and more like it just was not him, and VDP felt it was not brainy enough and Brian's sort of juvenile behavior didn't endear him either and they drifted apart and Brian dropped SMiLE because he just did not feel it.
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« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2011, 07:03:42 AM »

I like Cam's point about Parks and the possible separating. 

So many things likely played roles in the actions and decisions.

I often think of the Murry factor.  Brian was still a young man.  Think of the effect of being with Murry at one point (Christmas? Birthday?) and having Murray say to Brian something like "Sure, son...but will people really be able to appreciate that sort of music?" 
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« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2011, 10:40:38 PM »

I think probably the stuff we point to as showing some sort of mental/emotional problems were just the way Brian was with his type of genius.

I don't know about needing to cool out after SMiLE, in actuality he didn't cool out at all, he was working full tilt for the next year.

I think we have overlooked the elephant in the room which was between Brian and VDP, the actual collaborators. I think the "conflicts" with VDP were the problems. Not really conflict but just a plain disagreement of the creative and behavioral. Brian wanted to be snooty, he did it because he could, as he did it he began to feel more and more like it just was not him, and VDP felt it was not brainy enough and Brian's sort of juvenile behavior didn't endear him either and they drifted apart and Brian dropped SMiLE because he just did not feel it.

I've never read or heard of anything that would support that as a reason VDP left the project.  What I've read and heard seems to indicate that VDP was frustrated with the general atmosphere that permeated the project once the Beach Boys returned from touring.  What are you basing this on, Cam?
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« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2011, 04:05:37 AM »

The Anderle, Siegel and Vosse interviews, and various comments by Brian and Van Dyke.

Anderle said he thought the reason, the "critical point", SMiLE fell apart was "hassles" and "clashs" between Brian and Van Dyke over what Brian thought of the lyrics and what Van Dyke thought of the music and that they were too "strong" individually to work together. They had been working together fine and then they weren't. Nobody ever seems to remember this.
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« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2011, 05:53:53 AM »

I'm just saying you can guess what SMiLE would have been like, and what the next album after that might well have been like based on the fact he probably would have used leftovers from SMiLE to make it, and where he actually did wind up going in '67-'68.

I sincerely do not believe that if Smile had been completed then the scattered remains would have been the basis of a followup LP. At this point in his artistic growth BW had almost unbridled musical ambition. He was achieving greatness and I don't think that rummaging through the scrap piles of finished projects was where his head would have been at.

But Brian was doing just that (he always did, and continues doing so to this day).  This was the guy who turned Thinking About You Baby into Darlin'.  Hell, he was stealing stuff from Smile songs to put in other Smile songs.  He re-recorded several Smile tracks for Smiley Smile, he recycled the bass part of the Smile version of Wind Chimes for Can't Wait Too Long, and he re-did Surf's Up during the Wild Honey sessions, and he put some of Child Is Father Of The Man into Dennis' Little Bird.  I could go on and on.  I can definitely see Brian using some bits and pieces..perhaps not as the basis for a follow-up, but as an intro to a song here, or a bridge to a song there, or whatever. 
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« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2011, 06:59:18 AM »

The Anderle, Siegel and Vosse interviews, and various comments by Brian and Van Dyke.

Anderle said he thought the reason, the "critical point", SMiLE fell apart was "hassles" and "clashs" between Brian and Van Dyke over what Brian thought of the lyrics and what Van Dyke thought of the music and that they were too "strong" individually to work together. They had been working together fine and then they weren't. Nobody ever seems to remember this.

Here are some excerpts from the Vosse Fusion article.  He seems to indicate that while there were many factors involved in the demise of Smile, the decision to scrap the project was ultimately Brian's to make.

Vosse starts by talking about how he met Brian and Van Dyke and the Beach Boys, and how he became an employee.  He then starts talking about the first recordings that Brian played for him - Good Vibrations, and parts of Cabinessence.  I don't have time to type out the whole piece, so I'll skip ahead:

   "But when I met them - right there at that point - everything was very optimistic, and straight ahead.
   As to the other Beach Boys at this time: Dennis and Carl, being Brian's brothers, hung out at the house a little more perhaps than anyone else...So they would be around a lot.  Mike Love and Brian, you know...disagreed and then agreed...I think they must have a very strong bond that causes them to have this kind of friction; it doesn't really destroy their relationship.  But at that time, Mike and Brian were a little on the outs because Van Dyke was doing all the lyrics - and Mike didn't really think that was where it was at..."

He then goes on to talk about the formation of Brother Records, and the law suit with Capitol:

   "Finally what happened was, Capitol settled out of court 'cause they held one trump card: they knew the Beach Boys wanted...Well, Capitol told them they could be on Brother Records, distributed through Capitol - and they would get their $250,000 immediately; and I believe they got a guarantee that had to be at least a million dollars...So the Beach Boys took it, and that's when things started getting bad.
   That's when several things contributed to what I would call Brian's growing uncertainty about whether or not he could fulfill this project: Smile.  The first uncertainty, was whether or not the group could cut it.  While they were in England, Brian cut the tracks - and the tracks were just brilliant, I mean, you would have loved them."

Here he starts to describe a couple of the tracks, The Elements and Wind Chimes, and Brian's production techniques.  He then goes back to his thoughts stated above:

   "So all of these tracks had been done at Western, and everything was ready, and the Beach Boys returned from their triumphant English tour - and the whole thing started going nuts then.  First three sessions with the group were just full of confusion, because what Brian would do was give them a bit at a time: he didn't like teach them a song; he used them like instruments: he'd teach Mike Love one little part, and somebody else this, that, and the other...Then he'd spend about three days recording and recording and recording to get one song right; then he'd finish with it, tell them everything was fine - and two days later, he'd go back in alone, take out a voice track of say Carl which wasn't right, and he'd put his own voice in instead; and then he'd dabble with somebody else's - and before you knew it, it was almost all Brian.
   Al Jardine, though, did a lot of good singing at that time - really good singing.  And Mike Love always comes through very well on what it is he does, which is pretty limited.
   Then, the guys started getting up tight about the material.  They were worried about how they'd do it in person.  Now they're orchestrated, but even then Brian was considering a full orchestra to back them up...and that sort of forestalled things a little: they thought it might be a good idea.
   Then, tension developed in the studio, because what it came down to was that Brian and Van Dyke had come up with music a little too complex for them, and which they began to resent.  A lot of the arguments that took place were between Brian and Mike Love.  And a lot of people would go off into corners together - the sure sign that a group is in trouble: where you have two over in this half, and two other there at the same time - huddling, and saying: hey, you know, this f*cking thing...There was a lot of that.
   Right in the middle of this, older members of the Wilson family did everything possible to destroy the relationship between Brian and Van Dyke, Brian and David Anderle, and Brian and me.  They did it out of suspicion, and they didn't like our appearances...suspicion that the Beach Boys would dissolve the minute they...Well, I can quote Murry Wilson one night sitting down with me and astounding me, telling me what a horrible mistake it had been for Brian to put out "Good Vibrations" - because, he said, Brian's going to lose his whole audience: those kids don't want to hear that; the Boys have got to go back to what they were doing.  So that became the big argument: Are we gonna lose our image or are we gonna start a new one..."

Here, Vosse starts to talk about Oppenheim and the Inside Pop filming.  I'll skip ahead again:

   "So, in the studio, things were going off and on: the album was moving very slowly, and it missed it's Christmas release - so at that point they decided to concentrate on the single, "Heroes and Villains" - of which there must have been a dozen versions.  The best version I heard, which was never completed, but at least I could see the form of it, was an A side B side version lasting about six minutes.  It was a beautifully structured work; and Van Dyke was still very invlolved.
   To catch up on him: As schisms developed within the Beach Boys inner organization, so there developed a tendency within a family, which is what the Beach Boys basically are - to find an external object on which to place blame for whatever's wrong.  Well, of course, Van Dyke Parks was the most convenient target.
   Van Dyke Parks does have an ego, too.  He could get a little snooty with Brian, and Brian didn't like that.  Actually, they would fight every once in awhile; they would have arguments: Van Dyke would get really mad because he hated working in a subservient position where there was someone that could say no; and Brian always maintained that.  And every once in awhile, he would say no just to let Van Dyke know he could say no: and that's what really made Van Dyke mad.
   And as the Beach Boys saw there was a thing there between Van Dyke and Brian that was vulnerable, instantly the pressure started being on Van Dyke: who soon just sort of walked away from it.
   Now Van Dyke and Brian usually wrote up at Brian's house at the piano late at night: they both liked to work at night - all night sessions; and they usually worked alone.  There was no need for anyone else to be there.
   Where I saw a musical cooperation going on was definitely in the studios, and particularly when they were cutting tracks.  I mean, Van Dyke played on them.  In the studio together, they had a very happy relationship, you know.  That's the area where he had great respect for Brian, and I'm sure was influenced by Brian in instrumentation, orchestration, and producing.  So he kind of tried not to impose too much on that.  However, Brian wanted him there all the time, and when problems would develop he would call him; and the two of them in the studio together were just a joy, without the other guys around: they had a good time...They used these good musicians like Jimmy Gordon, and some of these funky old violin players that Brian would find, and cello players...Like Brian really loved the cello and the French horn as instruments, which few people used in rock records but he used all the time.  So, Van and Brian got on fine.
   I would say...half-way through the production of the single "Heroes and Villains", as things become more indecisive - Van Dyke at that time had been approached by Lenny Waronker to do this arrangement for the Mojo Men, and actually he sort of tried to get out of it - he didn't want to do it that much, but he did.  Brian, however, had wanted to sign Van Dyke to Brother Records, and produce him.  But Van Dyke knew too much at that point about what went on with the Beach Boys - and didn't want Brian to produce him because he knew the two of them could probably never get it done.
   And so Lenny called Van to help out with Harpers Bizarre, and one day Warner's really told him how much they liked him, and offered him a very good deal: I think he got a very excellent contract from them.  So he signed.
   And the day that he signed he put his head back into his own music again.
   And was less and less available to Brian.
   And Brian was less and less sure of what he was doing with the album.
   But let me just say that I think that while the Beach Boys were in England, and while Brian was doing the tracks for the album, it was a totally conceived entity: there were just a few things to be resolved."

At this point Vosse is asked about the album.  He talks about the packaging and the photos, then goes on to try to describe some of the tracks, and finally he talks about recording all of the water sounds for Brian and he sounds so excited about all of it, and then he says this:

   "And that never got done.   
   ...but things interfered, external things interfered with the music...In March, Brother Records was just about all set up - and it was agreed that the Beach Boys first thing would be on Brother and be "Heroes and Villains".
   And I don't know...We just stopped getting on...The more time that went by the more apparent it became that the project was never going to be finished...at all.
   And by March there was some doubt about the whole structure of the organization...Then the insecurities started compounding themselves to the point that by early spring of '67, both Anderle and I had left."




« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 07:14:33 AM by LostArt » Logged
hypehat
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« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2011, 07:10:22 AM »

Cam's right re: Brian and Van Dyke - if you need some evidence, try listening to the 'Psycodelic Sounds' tape in full and keep an ear out for Van Dyke. He just keeps putting in wry/sarcastic asides and not really 'getting into it' like the rest of the guys, although he relents from time to time. But yeah, there was a divide, and I can totally picture Brian being a dick about it like Vosse mentions in the article - after all, he railroads the group on the tapes all the time, so why not VD?
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« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2011, 07:28:09 AM »

Is it just coincidence that Brian was not artistically snooty before or after and as VDP was less present Brian began to desnoot SMiLE until he scrapped it and his reasons were too arty lyrics and artistically selfish? Or something like that.
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