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674578 Posts in 27223 Topics by 4010 Members - Latest Member: angleofreason May 23, 2022, 04:37:58 PM
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Author Topic: How do we feel about "Never Learn Not to Love"?  (Read 9692 times)
joshferrell
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« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2011, 06:21:31 PM »

even though I don't care for Manson I must admit creepy things/people are intreging to me,kind of like Hitler or looking at a car wreck when driving by one or looking at crime scene photos you know it's wrong and you don't agree with them but can't help to just kind of take a sneek peak into them from time to time,maybe it's just a way of trying to understand them without being too obvious.. so yeah the song is interesting to me..I think it has a beautiful arrangement by Dennis and one of my favorites from 20/20..
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« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2011, 07:43:02 PM »

Liking this song is not akin to condoning cult killings.
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« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2011, 07:50:32 PM »

I only have 20/20 on LP and the 1990 twofer CD.  Did they ever update the credits for this and actually officially acknowledge Manson as a co-writer?  The totally coy blurb in the 1990 CD really irks me, because of course they don't come anywhere near mentioning Manson.  

I have no particular love for Manson as a dude but its a bigger blot on the BBs legacy that they sort of backhandedly claimed credit for the song than that they covered it at all.

What do you expect? Manson is considered by most to be a total monster, and rightly so. I say this as someone can seperate the person from the art, I'll add - I enjoy a few of his songs and find some of the things he's said over the years fairly interesting and insightful, albeit hard to take seriously when wedged between the sexist stuff he said and the stated justification for the things he did.

But srslyz, can you really blame everyone in the Beach Boys camp for wanting to distance themselves as much as they possibly can from him? Can you blame them for not wanting to further taint the legacy of a deceased loved one because of his association with this guy? Be lucky they didn't remove the song from the album and attempt to track down and destroy copies containing it back in the 60s, which is what a lot of other folks would've done. The less said about this in official Beach Boys liner notes, the better.

Regardless, Manson, to me, was very much a "blot" on the Beach Boys' legacy and nothing more. He befriended Dennis, he recorded some stuff with Brian, he wrote a song that Dennis ended up using, and then Dennis got the f*** away, narrowly escaping with his life, upon learning how f***ed up the situation really was. Any finer details pertain more to the Charles Manson story, not the Beach Boys story, and there's plenty in the way of information on him and his story out there. What more needs to be said in regards to he and the Beach Boys?
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anazgnos
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« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2011, 09:12:07 PM »

But srslyz, can you really blame everyone in the Beach Boys camp for wanting to distance themselves as much as they possibly can from him? Can you blame them for not wanting to further taint the legacy of a deceased loved one because of his association with this guy? Be lucky they didn't remove the song from the album and attempt to track down and destroy copies containing it back in the 60s, which is what a lot of other folks would've done. The less said about this in official Beach Boys liner notes, the better.

No, I totally get this, I get why there would be personal squeamishness within the camp and I don't blame anybody for it.  But then, they were happy enough to allow Manson episode some prominence within the American Band movie, which was close to being an "authorized" band biography.  I'm not looking for lurid detail in the 20/20 liner notes, I just think the coy denial of association, when it's so widely known, ends up looking worse than the association itself in the long run. 
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Justin
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« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2011, 09:44:22 PM »

Good post, runnersdialzero.


Has the board ever discussed the topic of Dennis taking Manson's song?  Is there much written about what happened from the moment Dennis heard the song "Cease to Exist" to it finally ending up on 20/20 as "Never Learn Not To Love?"  Considering what we know about Dennis, it seems out of character for him to do something like that. 

Are we putting much into the theory that Dennis gladly took off Manson's credit because he wanted to cheat him out of royalties as a way for Manson to pay him back for the ridiculous amount of money Dennis had already spent on Manson and his Family ('the biggest ghonorrhea bill in history")? 

I know Dennis played around, did drugs and was in no way an angel but to take someone one's song as he did--regardless of how much he morphed it into a work of art, completely making the original almost irrelevant----doesn't seem like something he would do--very much below him.  It's not like it was a common trend amongst the Wilson brothers to sneak and cheat collaborators/original writers from their due (Van dyke, Asher etc etc). 

Anyone have any thoughts?
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« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2011, 10:43:23 PM »

From what I've heard, Manson "gave" Dennis the song because he owed him some debt.

He got pissed when some of his words were changed.
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« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2011, 12:13:05 AM »

I like the psychedelic feel of it.  The background harmonies are breathless.  Not a bad song.
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« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2011, 03:04:38 AM »

Manson didn't care about the credit. He had no publishing deal anyway. As has been mentioned he'd already bludged a huge sum of cash out of Dennis, so the song was considered more a gift. He told Dennis to do what he wished with the music but specifically to not change the lyrics which Wilson then promptly did. Charlie got very angry at this and went on a crusade to "get what was owed". What happened next is very murky and unclear but it resulted in Dennis distancing himself from The Family very quickly.
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« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2011, 04:09:59 AM »

There's an interview with Neil Young somewhere or other in which he states that an awful lot of movie/music/TV types flocked to Manson initially, then denied all knowledge when the sh*t hit the fan.
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« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2011, 04:56:57 AM »

I love this song. Like a lot of Dennis's songs it sounds like an aural equivalent of sex. Especially the build at the end (closer, closer...) followed by the chant (ecstatic, post-coital afterglow).
I remember reading somewhere that it was a gift from Manson to help heal the band who were having problems at the time (maybe Manson said this) and Manson said Dennis could do whatever he wanted with it except change the words
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« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2011, 05:08:11 AM »

I like it a lot. I always thought that it's funny that Charlie's version is less spooky.
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« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2011, 06:28:54 AM »

I love NLNTL! I wish Dennis would`ve kept the original title though. Look At Your Game was pretty good too.
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« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2011, 11:41:00 AM »

From what I've heard, Manson "gave" Dennis the song because he owed him some debt.

He got pissed when some of his words were changed.

Manson didn't care about the credit. He had no publishing deal anyway. As has been mentioned he'd already bludged a huge sum of cash out of Dennis, so the song was considered more a gift. He told Dennis to do what he wished with the music but specifically to not change the lyrics which Wilson then promptly did. Charlie got very angry at this and went on a crusade to "get what was owed". What happened next is very murky and unclear but it resulted in Dennis distancing himself from The Family very quickly.

I remember reading somewhere that it was a gift from Manson to help heal the band who were having problems at the time (maybe Manson said this) and Manson said Dennis could do whatever he wanted with it except change the words

Ah ok cool...good to know that we have a pretty good idea on the circumstances of how the song got to Dennis. 

But in addition to Manson upset about changing the lyrics...wasn't he also demanding the money for the song?  If it was a "gift" or he "gave" the song to Dennis...why would he demand money later? If Dennis hadn't changed the lyrics---would he have overlooked the money issue? 

I suppose adding some logic to the situation doesn't help when you're dealing with a madman such as Manson...

« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 11:42:10 AM by Justin » Logged
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« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2011, 12:43:10 PM »

I actually prefer the original Cease to Exist. He was a bad guy, but at the same time, who here could honestly say they wouldn't turn out the same way if they were raised by a prostitute and a dad who was never around. Having said that, I can appreciate his music. I consider it to be a dark Bob Dylan type sound. Had he have stayed out of trouble, he might have made a name for himself in music and not as a villain.
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« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2011, 02:57:31 PM »

One thing to remember about Manson is there were times in his life when he gave vast sums of money to people without a care, when later people wouldn't do the same for him he got incredibly angry.

During the interview he did with Geraldo, in mid rant, Manson makes a vague reference to going to New York to demand cash for songs the Beach Boys 'took' from him.
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SMiLE Brian
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« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2011, 03:11:36 PM »

Hopefully Manson doesn't break out of Jail to crash the Beach Boys reunion.
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« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2011, 03:21:56 PM »

Hopefully Manson doesn't break out of Jail to crash the Beach Boys reunion.

What an odd thing to say.
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« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2011, 03:29:26 PM »

Hopefully Manson doesn't break out of Jail to crash the Beach Boys reunion.

What an odd thing to say.
I was just thinking of how Manson lives in the past and still hates the group to the point of pulling a stunt like showing up at one of their shows if he broke out. Tall Brian Wilson could easily knock out out that shrimp anyway. There is no way we would break out of the max security prison he is in anyway.
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And production aside, Id so much rather hear a 14 year old David Marks shred some guitar on Chug-a-lug than hear a 51 year old Mike Love sing about bangin some chick in a swimming pool.-rab2591
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« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2011, 04:28:50 PM »

I've always thought it was a great Beach Boys recording, and a good early progressive rock song.  I'm guessing that Dennis' involvement as an arranger had to be only good for it, but I've never heard Manson's original.  Maybe I should try to find it on YouTube just to have a basis for comparison.

As for music and the character of the music creator, there's a whole lot of music I love that I would not listen to if I based my opinion of the music on my opinion of the person making it...witness anything ever sung by Mike Love, for instance...
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« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2011, 05:03:57 PM »

I've always thought it was a great Beach Boys recording, and a good early progressive rock song.  I'm guessing that Dennis' involvement as an arranger had to be only good for it, but I've never heard Manson's original.  Maybe I should try to find it on YouTube just to have a basis for comparison.

As for music and the character of the music creator, there's a whole lot of music I love that I would not listen to if I based my opinion of the music on my opinion of the person making it...witness anything ever sung by Mike Love, for instance...

Sort of a dirge-y folk song I gues. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRObQ3AojC0
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« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2011, 05:26:19 PM »

Wow, that's fascinating.  What Dennis did was take a really mediocre piece of songwriting and make a production masterpiece out of it.  It's Dennis' genius that made this a great Beach Boys recording.
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« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2011, 09:38:24 PM »

Hopefully Manson doesn't break out of Jail to crash the Beach Boys reunion.

What an odd thing to say.
I was just thinking of how Manson lives in the past and still hates the group to the point of pulling a stunt like showing up at one of their shows if he broke out. Tall Brian Wilson could easily knock out out that shrimp anyway. There is no way we would break out of the max security prison he is in anyway.

Brian Wilson is way too passive to punch anybody. Al is as short as Manson.  Bruce would just give a lecture or something. Mike, Dave, Ricky or Blondie would kick his a$$ though. Smiley
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Mike Love autobiography (pg 242-243)
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« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2011, 12:30:24 PM »

You can't deny that it's a good song- one of the better ones on that album anyway.
The Beach Boys / Dennis Wilson version is miles better than the original though.. a completely different sound.
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« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2011, 12:46:00 PM »

This is a really difficult question. And it turns up elsewhere. Sales of Michael Jackson dropped off during the child molestation charges. Phil Judd from the original Split Enz was convicted of stalking and that coloured at least his last two solo albums. Funnily enough Phil Spector's conviction hasn't much changed they way i view his records.

In this case, it's quite hard, The Beach Boys interpreted a song and made it quite strong. There was no murder lurking in their minds when they did it. However the original title "Cease to Exist" does have an all too easy link to murder and there are many sign posts of cult in the lyrics "give up your world and come and be with me"... "I'm your kind and I see". So we can recognise the strength of the song but it definitely has some creepy colourings that fit all too neatly with the fact that we know the writer instigated Mass murder.

It must have been a complete bummer for Dennis when he found out what Manson was. As far as credits for the song that doesn't bother me at all, from everything I've read Manson took way more than he gave to Dennis. In the end the song was a very mixed blessing, maybe more of a curse?
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« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2011, 01:35:51 PM »

Let's go back to the first thing I said in this thread.
I'm just gonna say this right now, Manson himself never killed anyone. Jim Gordon, on the other hand, killed his mother, and he played on Pet Sounds.
But Jim Gordon killing his mother wasn't a media case like Manson was. so no one cares.
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