How do we feel about "Never Learn Not to Love"?

[Justin]

Considering the original writer of the song and its history...how do we feel about this one?  I feel weird to admit that I really like Dennis' take on it.  The vocals and tightened melody (compared to Manson's original) is unbelievable. 

So how do you feel about it?  Is it a legitimate Beach Boys track?  Do you not enjoy it at all because of its history?  Do you love this song?

[Aegir]

I'm just gonna say this right now, Manson himself never killed anyone. Jim Gordon, on the other hand, killed his mother, and he played on Pet Sounds. So if you think "Never Learn Not to Love" can't be listened to because it's a Charles Manson song, well, guess you can't listen to Pet Sounds then either.

[shelter]

I'm just gonna say this right now, Manson himself never killed anyone. Jim Gordon, on the other hand, killed his mother, and he played on Pet Sounds. So if you think "Never Learn Not to Love" can't be listened to because it's a Charles Manson song, well, guess you can't listen to Pet Sounds then either.

Lead Belly also killed someone, and he wrote Cotton Fields.

[shelter]

And The Beach Boys also recorded several songs that were co-written by Phil Spector.

[Justin]

Good points, Aegir and shelter.  I think what bugs me more was that upon listening to "Never Learn Not To Love" I was absolutely floored.  The arrangements and production...spectacular.  When I found out that it wasn't a Wilson original...I was kind of bummed.  Sure they've covered a bunch load of song written by other people but I was just slightly taken aback.  The Manson connection doesn't help matters.

[Aegir]

The production/arrangement is what I like about the song. Manson's version isn't as good. The outro is great and there's nothing in Manson's version that even indicates something like that.

[Nicko1234]

I think there is a slight difference between this and the other examples given. The lyrics to Cottonfields and Leadbelly's killing couldn't really be connected. Whereas I guess you could make a connection between Manson's warped mental state and his lyrics.

Personally though I just see it as one of the lesser songs on 20/20, overshadowed by many other cuts from that record.

[Mike's Beard]

Great song, great arrangement. Dennis took a rough sketch of a song and turned it into something magical.
BTW the outro on the song uses a chant The Family used to sing around the campfire.

[Ron]

It's alright.  I like some of chuck's other songs like that "All in the mind of a Dreamer" track or whatever it's called. 

[Justin]

Great song, great arrangement. Dennis took a rough sketch of a song and turned it into something magical.
BTW the outro on the song uses a chant The Family used to sing around the campfire.

The production/arrangement is what I like about the song. Manson's version isn't as good. The outro is great and there's nothing in Manson's version that even indicates something like that.

Gotta agree here.  Dennis' version is majestic and it just soars right through you.  It's amusing to read comments on YouTube on Manson's original track how some people prefer that over the BB version.  Manson's is basically a blues folk tune while Dennis' is a glorious, orchestral masterpiece that makes you feel lik you're cruising through the sky. 

[oldsurferdude]

Great song, great arrangement. Dennis took a rough sketch of a song and turned it into something magical.
BTW the outro on the song uses a chant The Family used to sing around the campfire.

The production/arrangement is what I like about the song. Manson's version isn't as good. The outro is great and there's nothing in Manson's version that even indicates something like that.

Gotta agree here.  Dennis' version is majestic and it just soars right through you.  It's amusing to read comments on YouTube on Manson's original track how some people prefer that over the BB version.  Manson's is basically a blues folk tune while Dennis' is a glorious, orchestral masterpiece that makes you feel lik you're cruising through the sky. 

Good description-There's mystery and a certain intrigue involved with this song that had me captivated well before learning of it's origin. A great vocal from Dennis with a spectacular arrangement and production from Carl and Dennis. I played the daylights outta this track when it came out both at home and on my college radio show. 20/20 could have been a stronger player without Cottonfields, TNFP, and BBOTM with more substitutions coming from Dennis.

[Jason]

I feel like I've sined for praising Manson. Cosined. Tangented. FUM HIM THE MOURDOROUS BASTARD!

[Justin]

20/20 could have been a stronger player without Cottonfields, TNFP, and BBOTM with more substitutions coming from Dennis.

Abso-freakin-lutely!

[anazgnos]

I only have 20/20 on LP and the 1990 twofer CD.  Did they ever update the credits for this and actually officially acknowledge Manson as a co-writer?  The totally coy blurb in the 1990 CD really irks me, because of course they don't come anywhere near mentioning Manson.  

I have no particular love for Manson as a dude but its a bigger blot on the BBs legacy that they sort of backhandedly claimed credit for the song than that they covered it at all.

[positivemusic]

I only have 20/20 on LP and the 1990 twofer CD.  Did they ever update the credits for this and actually officially acknowledge Manson as a co-writer?  The totally coy blurb in the 1990 CD really irks me, because of course they don't come anywhere near mentioning Manson.  

I have no particular love for Manson as a dude but its a bigger blot on the BBs legacy that they sort of backhandedly claimed credit for the song than that they covered it at all.

I know Manson was the original writer on this, but Dennis' tighter take and spectacular arranging and producing on this make it feel more like an interpretation, than a straight up cover. Though, I do understand and agree with your points here.

As for the song itself, I love it. The boys did an incredible job on it. I actually get a "darker" feeling from "Be With Me" than "Never Learn Not To Love," but that's definitely more to do with the atmosphere of the arrangement than the overall tone of the lyrics.

[Justin]

I almost think that the ominous, looming cloud of noise that haunts us in the first 27 seconds of the song was Dennis' subliminal way to say that this song was Manson's.  This creepy hum reminds me exactly of the music found in the "Star-Gate" scene in Kubrick's  2001: A Space Odyssey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou6JNQwPWE0)  except this time instead of traveling at lightyear speed through galaxies--we slowly fade into a long journey deep into the depths of the dark and disturbing center of Manson's mind---where this song came from.  Was this Dennis' way to tell us where this song came from without really saying it?  Maybe...maybe not.  But I think so...

[?]

I love the song.  Probably the best track on 20/20 besides the Smile leftovers.

[Smilin Ed H]

I like it. Doesn't alter my opinion of Manson, however.

[Zack]

I always hear "I'm your kind I'm your kind of Nazi" in the chorus.

[Muntjac]

I think the beach boys version Is on par with Mansons original. He had a great voice and there's some cool electric guitar on his version. I have to admit though, I was listening to never learn not to love In the dark last night and the rumbling In the Intro creeped me out so much I had to turn the light back on. Both great versions, but entirely different..almost beyond comparison for that reason.

As for the fact that It was Charles Mansons song....It's just music and I don't care who's making It, unless the lyrics are designed to subliminally influence you or something.

[Exapno Mapcase]

Wha?  Did you get a copy of Hitler's Greatest Hits for Christmas?

[Muntjac]

Wha?  Did you get a copy of Hitler's Greatest Hits for Christmas?

I wish. I'm not condoning the manson murders, and I think he's a terrible man. But the music he made was undeniably good.

[c-man]

I almost think that the ominous, looming cloud of noise that haunts us in the first 27 seconds of the song was Dennis' subliminal way to say that this song was Manson's.  This creepy hum reminds me exactly of the music found in the "Star-Gate" scene in Kubrick's  2001: A Space Odyssey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou6JNQwPWE0)  except this time instead of traveling at lightyear speed through galaxies--we slowly fade into a long journey deep into the depths of the dark and disturbing center of Manson's mind---where this song came from.  Was this Dennis' way to tell us where this song came from without really saying it?  Maybe...maybe not.  But I think so...

Well, that might make sense if the song had been released after the Tate-LaBianca murders & the Mason family's subsequent arrest & trial.  But the 20/20 version of this song (its earlier appearance on a 45 B-side lacked that spine-tingling intro) appeared in February 1969, months before anyone outside of a circle of L.A.-area music biz folks had heard of Manson.

[Justin]

Yeah I thought about that but I believe that Dennis sensed that Manson was a little off....not a guy that was all there; perhaps realizing that this guy was far more darker than anyone he had met. 

[oldsurferdude]

I only have 20/20 on LP and the 1990 twofer CD.  Did they ever update the credits for this and actually officially acknowledge Manson as a co-writer?  The totally coy blurb in the 1990 CD really irks me, because of course they don't come anywhere near mentioning Manson.  

I have no particular love for Manson as a dude but its a bigger blot on the BBs legacy that they sort of backhandedly claimed credit for the song than that they covered it at all.

If I'm not too mistaken,  I read many years ago that Dennis got credit for the song because he allegedly either gave Manson money or a good deal of recording equipment with the understanding that Dennis would not change the the song or lyrics or both. John Stebbins probably could be more concise.