If Brian Had Never Smoked Pot nor Dropped Acid...

[harrisonjon]

Do you think a pot-free, acid-free Brian would have made Pet Sounds, GV or Smile, or would he have become an ultra-safe pop star or film composer? Could a drug-free Brian have overcome his mental problems in 1966-68?

[Curtis Leon]

You can't predict out what ifs.

Also, fair warning, you're opening up a pretty big can of worms here.

[pixletwin]

Short answer: No.

[Tristero]

Short answer: No.

Right.  Obviously, Brian has admitted to writing many of the songs from the Pet Sounds/SMiLE era while high and he's claimed that he used those substances to help 'up his game' creatively.  This is certainly not to say that he couldn't have evolved artistically without drugs.   By comparison, look at the Zombies who were able to produce a psychedelic masterpiece (Odyssey & Oracle), though they were largely straight, AFAIK.  Brian may still have written many of same songs or melodic lines but perhaps without some of the more outlandish arrangements.  I certainly don't think that the SMiLE sessions would have happened without the psychedelic influence.

[pixletwin]

I am sure whatever Brian would have written/produced would have been wonderful. It wouldn't have been Pet Sounds/SMiLE as we know them. Who knows, maybe it would have been better? Maybe it would have been pretty much on par with Today!? Maybe Brian would be a happier person now for it? Who knows?

[The Real Barnyard]

I'm absolutely convinced that a great song like 'Til I Die wouldn't have existed. Nor the melody or the lyrics.
We are fortunate that Brian did what he did and fortunate of what he has become as today.
Histoy is history.

[runnersdialzero]

We are fortunate that Brian did what he did and fortunate of what he has become as today.

...

[The Heartical Don]

I think he would have become a gas pump attendant circa 1965/66.

[XXXCD]

It sounds like he probably suffered from clinical depression.

But instead of getting his condition treated medically, he turned to excessive drug abuse. This appears to have made things much worse and triggered further (and even more serious) mental health problems which eventually ruined his life. Because of his success, he could financially afford drugs and afford to live in a "bubble" away from the outside world. This would not have happened to an ordinary person. Its a miracle that he is still alive.

Undoubtedly, had he stayed away from drugs and sought medical help in 1967 he would have had a much better chance of leading a completely normal and mentally healthy life. I think we would have then seen his musical progression go beyond Pet Sounds / Good Vibrations / Smile and into an even more creative world.

Drugs destroyed his life, wasted his talents, and deprived you and me of even more brilliant music.

[runnersdialzero]

Really, really impossible to way either way, I feel.

[hypehat]

It sounds like he probably suffered from clinical depression.

But instead of getting his condition treated medically, he turned to excessive drug abuse. This appears to have made things much worse and triggered further (and even more serious) mental health problems which eventually ruined his life. Because of his success, he could financially afford drugs and afford to live in a "bubble" away from the outside world. This would not have happened to an ordinary person. Its a miracle that he is still alive.

Undoubtedly, had he stayed away from drugs and sought medical help in 1967 he would have had a much better chance of leading a completely normal and mentally healthy life. I think we would have then seen his musical progression go beyond Pet Sounds / Good Vibrations / Smile and into an even more creative world.

Drugs destroyed his life, wasted his talents, and deprived you and me of even more brilliant music.

Brian did seek clinical treatment himself  in 1968. Clearly did him a power of good.

[anazgnos]

Obviously these things are incredibly subjective but I have never felt in any way more creative on drugs.  At best I could kind of appreciate or "get into" music more but at the same time my perceptions & capabilities would be really scattered & disorganized.  What I think is that Brian would have had emotional/mental issues regardless, and his talent would have come through regardless. 

Maybe certain radical arrangement ideas - the intro to California Girls for example - wouldn't have happened without the drugs.  But maybe the chemical influence was secondary to just the decision to take drugs in the first place - the decision to loosen up and become less conservative, creatively and personally.

[XXXCD]

Brian did seek clinical treatment himself  in 1968. Clearly did him a power of good.

During which time he was still using dangerous levels of recreational drugs I expect. The man needed to be hospitalized and placed in the care of experts.

My understanding is that Brian was more or less untreated until Landy showed up, by which time too much permanent damage had been done. Landy himself was not a reputable doctor and probably made things much worse, (even though he initially saved Brian's life through diet and exercise).

So Brian pretty much went 25+ years without proper medical intervention.

IF ONLY....

[XXXCD]

Obviously these things are incredibly subjective but I have never felt in any way more creative on drugs.  At best I could kind of appreciate or "get into" music more but at the same time my perceptions & capabilities would be really scattered & disorganized.  What I think is that Brian would have had emotional/mental issues regardless, and his talent would have come through regardless.  

Maybe certain radical arrangement ideas - the intro to California Girls for example - wouldn't have happened without the drugs.  But maybe the chemical influence was secondary to just the decision to take drugs in the first place - the decision to loosen up and become less conservative, creatively and personally.

If you read in detail about how mentally ill Brian became after 1967, you appreciate that his drug addiction was way out of control and he was also suffering from dangerous levels of depression and paranoia. To the extent that he was extremely close to killing himself on numerous ocassions and made many suicide attempts. There is no doubt that drug taking made this much worse, whereas his initial symptons (which sound like depression) are treatable in the majority of  cases- even in the 1960s.  They did not help to fuel his creativity, they destroyed his whole personality.

[Tristero]

This seems like kind of a futile argument to me.  Would you still enjoy the art of Brian Wilson if he were a completely different person?  If it were somehow possible to remove the deep scars from his childhood that helped to fuel both his genius and his madness, the pain that drove him to self medicate, what are we left with?  Would we even be talking about him now?  Great artists are often unstable, self destructive people, but you can't just wish away their flaws. 

[adamghost]

Don't overlook the simple power of boredom.  Brian was a bright guy who saw things in some areas that no one around him could.  That's a lot of what led him into the social world of '65-67.  You take away the drugs and even the mental illness, you're still going to have a guy that needs a level of stimulation he's going to have a hard time gathering from his immediate family circle.  I think without finding a means and/or a catalyst to that, Brian's creative spark would have lapsed regardless.  Just my opinion.

[MBE]

Brian wasn't taking hard drugs in an abusive way until well into the seventies. Whatever he did for himself in 1968 for the next serveral years he did very well compared to anytime since.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

It sounds like he probably suffered from clinical depression.

But instead of getting his condition treated medically, he turned to excessive drug abuse. This appears to have made things much worse and triggered further (and even more serious) mental health problems which eventually ruined his life. Because of his success, he could financially afford drugs and afford to live in a "bubble" away from the outside world. This would not have happened to an ordinary person. Its a miracle that he is still alive.

Undoubtedly, had he stayed away from drugs and sought medical help in 1967 he would have had a much better chance of leading a completely normal and mentally healthy life. I think we would have then seen his musical progression go beyond Pet Sounds / Good Vibrations / Smile and into an even more creative world.

Drugs destroyed his life, wasted his talents, and deprived you and me of even more brilliant music.

What utter sh*te

Obviously written by someone who a) isn't creative, and b) has never taken drugs.

Drugs were a symptom of his problems, and exasperated them without question, but the problems were there already.

The creative burst between that began with Today were completely inspired by psychoactive drugs. This and subsequent albums would not exist without them. How could his music go beyond a world it never would have reached?

How can you possibly listen to and experience SMiLE without a spliff in your hand? Short answer, you cannot.

Why don't you just go and put on your Grange Hill " Just Say NO" single, and leave the Beach Boys to those who appreciate them properly.

[18thofMay]

It sounds like he probably suffered from clinical depression.

But instead of getting his condition treated medically, he turned to excessive drug abuse. This appears to have made things much worse and triggered further (and even more serious) mental health problems which eventually ruined his life. Because of his success, he could financially afford drugs and afford to live in a "bubble" away from the outside world. This would not have happened to an ordinary person. Its a miracle that he is still alive.

Undoubtedly, had he stayed away from drugs and sought medical help in 1967 he would have had a much better chance of leading a completely normal and mentally healthy life. I think we would have then seen his musical progression go beyond Pet Sounds / Good Vibrations / Smile and into an even more creative world.

Drugs destroyed his life, wasted his talents, and deprived you and me of even more brilliant music.

What utter sh*te

Obviously written by someone who a) isn't creative, and b) has never taken drugs.

Drugs were a symptom of his problems, and exasperated them without question, but the problems were there already.

The creative burst between that began with Today were completely inspired by psychoactive drugs. This and subsequent albums would not exist without them. How could his music go beyond a world it never would have reached?

How can you possibly listen to and experience SMiLE without a spliff in your hand? Short answer, you cannot.

Why don't you just go and put on your Grange Hill " Just Say NO" single, and leave the Beach Boys to those who appreciate them properly.

That sort of quote really, really fucking shits me !!!!!!
I love SMiLE and I don't take drugs!! I get it!! I understand it...
I experience it!!
It is up to your consciousness how you feel it..... some "need" drugs.. others don't!!

[Curtis Leon]

It sounds like he probably suffered from clinical depression.

But instead of getting his condition treated medically, he turned to excessive drug abuse. This appears to have made things much worse and triggered further (and even more serious) mental health problems which eventually ruined his life. Because of his success, he could financially afford drugs and afford to live in a "bubble" away from the outside world. This would not have happened to an ordinary person. Its a miracle that he is still alive.

Undoubtedly, had he stayed away from drugs and sought medical help in 1967 he would have had a much better chance of leading a completely normal and mentally healthy life. I think we would have then seen his musical progression go beyond Pet Sounds / Good Vibrations / Smile and into an even more creative world.

Drugs destroyed his life, wasted his talents, and deprived you and me of even more brilliant music.

Three things wrong with that:

One, Brian was diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder back in the 90's, not clinical depression. Depression doesn't make you hear the voice of Phil Spector in your head against your will, as Brian has reported in the past, as far back as the 60's. Claiming that Brian just suffered/suffers from depression is historical revisionism and goes against what we know of his behavior and his own word during and after that time period.

Two, Brian was smoking pot/hash as far back as 1964, and started LSD in '65. Your post seems to imply that the (illicit) drug use started in '67... which is false.

Three, as hypehat said, he was committed to a mental institution in 1968/69 and apparently given Thorazine. From all accounts, it seems to have done nothing but made the situation worse. (Even as late as the '80's, people like Eugene Landy were allowed to practice psychiatry.) The understanding of mental health disorders in the '60s and '70s was far more primitive than our modern understanding of it, and in serious cases, the ability to help someone afflicted with an ailment was stunted by the lack of proper medicine thanks to centuries of misunderstanding and the use of primitive practices to treat any sort of mental health issues. (There's a noted story of Syd Barrett's band mates trying to get him psychiatric help early on into his problems, only to get turned down as "incurable".)

I knew people would try and use this topic to springboard their own anti/pro-drug beliefs. I don't like it; it's insulting to those who suffer from or live with another who has issues like Brian.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

It sounds like he probably suffered from clinical depression.

But instead of getting his condition treated medically, he turned to excessive drug abuse. This appears to have made things much worse and triggered further (and even more serious) mental health problems which eventually ruined his life. Because of his success, he could financially afford drugs and afford to live in a "bubble" away from the outside world. This would not have happened to an ordinary person. Its a miracle that he is still alive.

Undoubtedly, had he stayed away from drugs and sought medical help in 1967 he would have had a much better chance of leading a completely normal and mentally healthy life. I think we would have then seen his musical progression go beyond Pet Sounds / Good Vibrations / Smile and into an even more creative world.

Drugs destroyed his life, wasted his talents, and deprived you and me of even more brilliant music.

What utter sh*te

Obviously written by someone who a) isn't creative, and b) has never taken drugs.

Drugs were a symptom of his problems, and exasperated them without question, but the problems were there already.

The creative burst between that began with Today were completely inspired by psychoactive drugs. This and subsequent albums would not exist without them. How could his music go beyond a world it never would have reached?

How can you possibly listen to and experience SMiLE without a spliff in your hand? Short answer, you cannot.

Why don't you just go and put on your Grange Hill " Just Say NO" single, and leave the Beach Boys to those who appreciate them properly.

That sort of quote really, really f*cking sh*ts me !!!!!!

I love SMiLE and I don't take drugs!! I get it!! I understand it...
I experience it!!

It is up to your consciousness how you feel it..... some "need" drugs.. others don't!!

Have you heard SMiLE on acid?

If yes, then fair enough, I'm  wrong, it's just me

If no, then STFU, you don't know.

I love SMiLE and I don't take drugs!! I get it!! I understand it...
I experience it!!

Just shut up about the moon Neil Armstrong, I've seen it in the sky, so obviously know what it's like to walk on it.

[SMiLE Brian]

SMiLE is an album that is amazing to listen to high or sober due to its awesome musicianship. The problem with Smiley Smile (one of my favorites) in my opinion is that it is a niche album for stoners(me included in the past) and doesn't translate to normal audiences well. Brian did what he did with the drugs and we all have to live with that.

[joshferrell]

I think he would have become a gas pump attendant circa 1965/66.

After Mike Love attempts to produce "Summer In paradise" circa 1967..

[hypehat]

It sounds like he probably suffered from clinical depression.

But instead of getting his condition treated medically, he turned to excessive drug abuse. This appears to have made things much worse and triggered further (and even more serious) mental health problems which eventually ruined his life. Because of his success, he could financially afford drugs and afford to live in a "bubble" away from the outside world. This would not have happened to an ordinary person. Its a miracle that he is still alive.

Undoubtedly, had he stayed away from drugs and sought medical help in 1967 he would have had a much better chance of leading a completely normal and mentally healthy life. I think we would have then seen his musical progression go beyond Pet Sounds / Good Vibrations / Smile and into an even more creative world.

Drugs destroyed his life, wasted his talents, and deprived you and me of even more brilliant music.

What utter sh*te

Obviously written by someone who a) isn't creative, and b) has never taken drugs.

Drugs were a symptom of his problems, and exasperated them without question, but the problems were there already.

The creative burst between that began with Today were completely inspired by psychoactive drugs. This and subsequent albums would not exist without them. How could his music go beyond a world it never would have reached?

How can you possibly listen to and experience SMiLE without a spliff in your hand? Short answer, you cannot.

Why don't you just go and put on your Grange Hill " Just Say NO" single, and leave the Beach Boys to those who appreciate them properly.

That sort of quote really, really f*cking sh*ts me !!!!!!

I love SMiLE and I don't take drugs!! I get it!! I understand it...
I experience it!!

It is up to your consciousness how you feel it..... some "need" drugs.. others don't!!

Have you heard SMiLE on acid?

If yes, then fair enough, I'm  wrong, it's just me

If no, then STFU, you don't know.

I love SMiLE and I don't take drugs!! I get it!! I understand it...
I experience it!!

Just shut up about the moon Neil Armstrong, I've seen it in the sky, so obviously know what it's like to walk on it.

C'mon, whilst you obviously have a whale of a time hotboxing the shed and listening to TSS, don't deny the rest of us the privilege - I can barely get my hands on weed as it is, but I love Smile with all my heart. Don't try and paint some of us as squares just cos we don't want to waste what precious drugs we can get on listening to records by ourselves!

[Reverend Rock]

What a stupid, pointless shouting match...