"I Was Made to Love Her" on Wild Honey and Carol Kaye's claims

[guitarfool2002]

Tommy Tedesco always had a supply of one-liners to use at guitar clinics and in interviews. One of the ones which is relevant to what Jon Stebbins just wrote about Hal's drum credits went something like this: I get congratulated and praised by people all over the world for playing guitar on records I had no idea I played on!

He's right: For years, certain records I thought were Tommy and read was Tommy turned out to not have Tommy on them. George Harrison even joked about people praising his lead guitar work on Taxman when it was really Paul. I guess it's par for the course when his list of credits is that long, could Tommy remember every one?

[DonnyL]

It just seems that we are presenting some of this information as fact when it is not. 

Let's take the Beach Boys' 'I Was Made to Love Her'.  Bruce says Ron Brown played the bass.  Carol says she played it.   Neither are on the AFM.  The only thing we know for sure is that either one of the Beach Boys played the bass (doesn't seem likely based on the style), or the AFM sheet is wrong.

Essentially, we are saying that we trust Bruce's memory and his word over Carol's, which is fine.  And certainly understandable based on these other examples in this thread. But let's say that instead of "Carol claims to have played on 'I Was Made to Love Her' when she didn't".

I'm just saying that stranger things have happened (especially in the Beach Boys world) and none of this stuff is ever going to be 100% accurate.  We want facts and sometimes they just aren't there.  We are making conjectures based on evidence presented.

And I'm not specifically trying to defend Carol, I just think think there is some kind of groupthink occuring and it's always a good idea to consider some things outside of it.

Let's say Carol is right about 90% of the things that she played on and wrong about 10% (or whatever percentage you'd like), and she doesn't like being corrected regaring that 10% (and yes, some of these are pretty substantial claims).  Why can't we just take it with a grain of salt and leave it at that?

[hypehat]

Well, as a bit of a fan I'm a bit miffed that she insists on defaming James Jamerson, who was pretty much the greatest bass player in pop music ever. This is a man who essentially felt underappreciated for his vast talent and drunk himself into an early grave, and to see that carry on from a peer is a bit disgusting. Like, I bet Carol Kaye wishes she could play like Jamerson! As do most bassists I know.  But what most people seem to take umbrage with is her near-psychotic reactions to any criticism or factual evidence, which are certainly not ok.


Does anyone else find it strange she was saying 'I played the bass on the Sermon on The Mount, wait til this book comes out, you'll see!' with this Wapensky book, which presumably would have used the very same AFM sheets that prove she didn't play bass on all these songs....

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

It just seems that we are presenting some of this information as fact when it is not. 

Let's take the Beach Boys' 'I Was Made to Love Her'.  Bruce says Ron Brown played the bass.  Carol says she played it.   Neither are on the AFM.  The only thing we know for sure is that either one of the Beach Boys played the bass (doesn't seem likely based on the style), or the AFM sheet is wrong.

In addition, we know that Carol hadn't done a session for the Beach Boys in a while, and that Ron Brown was currently touring with them and on the payroll, and also had a strong Motown background.  I'm pretty sure he actually IS on some WH AFMs, though C-man could confirm that for sure.  Bruce was definitely at the session, so in tending to give Bruce more weight, it's based on the indisputable evidence that he participated in the recording of the track.  For the sake of argument, let's assume it's possible that Carol played on it uncredited.  Even then, she cannot be proved to have been there whereas Bruce can.

I'm just saying that stranger things have happened (especially in the Beach Boys world) and none of this stuff is ever going to be 100% accurate.  We want facts and sometimes they just aren't there.  We are making conjectures based on evidence presented.

I think it's ultimately the unanswerable questions that keep us coming back.  For instance, I've spent the last three years investigating the role of the violone and bass violin in the music of Handel, and I haven't got very far.  And yet, I still find that I can absolutely kill a whole day researching.  Trying new google searches, trying different databases, etc.

Let's say Carol is right about 90% of the things that she played on and wrong about 10% (or whatever percentage you'd like), and she doesn't like being corrected regaring that 10% (and yes, some of these are pretty substantial claims).  Why can't we just take it with a grain of salt and leave it at that?

Because disappointment rears its head?  As flawed human beings, all of us, we love to complain and attempt some redress of our grievances.  It's almost reflex.  Someone insults you and you hit almost have to hit back, psychologically.  Someone disappoints you, you have to distance yourself from them.

The problem is, Carol is always going to get dragged into these debates, because she has inserted herself so far in them.  If somebody wants to investigate credits for Wild Honey, they must deal with Carol.  

[anazgnos]

The person who has made the debate over Carol Kaye's recording credits so contentious and nasty is named Carol Kaye.  Arguing in favor of circumspection and benefit of the doubt towards Carol when she has been so consistently vitriolic, it's going to be a tough case to make.

[DonnyL]

It just seems that we are presenting some of this information as fact when it is not. 

Let's take the Beach Boys' 'I Was Made to Love Her'.  Bruce says Ron Brown played the bass.  Carol says she played it.   Neither are on the AFM.  The only thing we know for sure is that either one of the Beach Boys played the bass (doesn't seem likely based on the style), or the AFM sheet is wrong.

In addition, we know that Carol hadn't done a session for the Beach Boys in a while, and that Ron Brown was currently touring with them and on the payroll, and also had a strong Motown background.  I'm pretty sure he actually IS on some WH AFMs, though C-man could confirm that for sure.  Bruce was definitely at the session, so in tending to give Bruce more weight, it's based on the indisputable evidence that he participated in the recording of the track.  For the sake of argument, let's assume it's possible that Carol played on it uncredited.  Even then, she cannot be proved to have been there whereas Bruce can.

I'm just saying that stranger things have happened (especially in the Beach Boys world) and none of this stuff is ever going to be 100% accurate.  We want facts and sometimes they just aren't there.  We are making conjectures based on evidence presented.

I think it's ultimately the unanswerable questions that keep us coming back.  For instance, I've spent the last three years investigating the role of the violone and bass violin in the music of Handel, and I haven't got very far.  And yet, I still find that I can absolutely kill a whole day researching.  Trying new google searches, trying different databases, etc.

Let's say Carol is right about 90% of the things that she played on and wrong about 10% (or whatever percentage you'd like), and she doesn't like being corrected regaring that 10% (and yes, some of these are pretty substantial claims).  Why can't we just take it with a grain of salt and leave it at that?

Because disappointment rears its head?  As flawed human beings, all of us, we love to complain and attempt some redress of our grievances.  It's almost reflex.  Someone insults you and you hit almost have to hit back, psychologically.  Someone disappoints you, you have to distance yourself from them.

The problem is, Carol is always going to get dragged into these debates, because she has inserted herself so far in them.  If somebody wants to investigate credits for Wild Honey, they must deal with Carol.  

Very well said; I only wish more folks here could discuss these matters in such a diplomatic manner.

I suppose I personally relate 50/50 to the 'historical' side of things as well as some kind of 'magical' element.  I think you're correct in that the mystery keeps things interesting.  I just hear little things like the flubs in Stevie Wonder's version (which Carol has mentioned), and the strikingly similar bass tone on the Beach Boys' version ... and I just can't rule it out.

[endofposts]

"I Was Made to Love Her", Stevie Wonder version, was cut in Detroit.  Carol herself says she was never in Detroit but cut all her Motown stuff in LA.  HDH says she didn't play on that track or others that she's claimed to have played on that were all cut in Detroit. Considering they were the producers, they would know and have the final word.  Smokey Robinson, another Motown house producer, says the same thing about Carol not ever playing in Detroit.  That should close that case, period.  It would have been better for Carol if she had said she played on some Detroit sessions.  No one would expect her to produce Xerox copies of old airplane tickets to Detroit and her case would have had a little more potential credibility.  The only possibility is she played on an LA demo for the songs and somehow, some way, those tracks were used as backing tracks instead of the final versions cut in Detroit with all the players in one room (one of whom wasn't Carol).  Again, it stretches credibility, but just trying to be fair to all the Carolmaniacs out there.  It also might explain why she remembers cutting the track for Motown, even if it wasn't the final version (and some people do think she has confused song demos with final tracks, while other Wrecking Crew people said they never played on demos, those that could use the extra money might have)

I guess someone should ask Stevie Wonder.  But you know what Carol's defense would be if he said he didn't "see" her there.

[Andrew G. Doe]

We want facts and sometimes they just aren't there.  We are making conjectures based on evidence presented.

True. We are making informed conjectures based on the available documentary and anecdotal first-hand evidence. Carol, on the other hand, is flatly stating that "I played on these records" when it's been proven she either didn't or couldn't have. Examples:

"Surfin USA" - the only names on the AFM contract (#75997) are Wilson, Wilson, Wilson, Love & Marks. Further, said Marks recalls there being a second drummer, but not a female guitarist (nor Billy Strange, which she also claims).

"Surf City" - no-one called Kaye on the AFM contract (#59093). Names listed are Berry, Blaine, Pohlman, Strange, Pitman, Campbell & Palmer.

"I Was Made To Love Her" (Stevie Wonder) - leaving the whole "recorded in Detroit" thing aside, here's what Carol says about her own playing on this track: "I didn't like the final written riff that I played high up in unison with the horns. You can also hear where I was scuffling a bit with open strings a couple of times". Listen to the song. There are no horns on it.

I believe several of us have uncovered why she thinks she played on BB & J&D hits: in the wake of their success, knockoffs of their hits were swiftly recorded by the likes of the Challengers, the Hot Doggers and so on. I'm willing to bet those are the versions she played on.

[endofposts]

I wonder if she may have played on a cover verions or versions either the same year or within a few years of the original Wonder version and got confused as to what version she played on.  Since she was a backing track musician, she might never see the vocalist or hear the final result or anything.  She was just in and out of the studio and on to being in and out of other studios and didn't always remember who she was cutting for or what it was.  There was a 1967 (same year as the Wonder hit) version done by King Curtis.  Not Motown, but a horn player.  Also, a 1970 version done by Jr. Walker, for Motown; again, another horn player.  I'm sure there were other versions of that song done, a lot of them in that era.  Those were two just on the first page of All Music Guide's 227 versions of the song.  It's no excuse for some of her rudeness or insisting it has to be Wonder if it's not, but it would explain why she might "mis-remember" a session she played for that song, even if it was for totally different artists.

[shelter]

It's sad that mrs. Kaye doesn't seem to realize what she is doing to her own reputation. If she just would have admitted that she might not have played on some songs that she thought she did play on, it would have been perfectly fine. Nobody would have blamed her for not remembering exactly what she did or didn't play on, and even minus a few dozen hits, she would still have been that lady who played on more hit singles than Elvis, the Beatles and the Stones combined. But now, she'll be remember as that - and as that crazy old woman who stole other people's credits and refused to accept proven facts. It's really a shame, and I hope that one day she will come to that conclusion herself.

[Wirestone]

Exactly.

I think everyone who has bothered to read or learn about this case would think the basic, source problem here is that session musicians played a lot of soundalike gigs. Absolutely.

But I wonder if part of it is connected to the fact that Carol doesn't care for most of the pop music of the era, as she repeated time and again in the late 90s, early 2000s. She was all about jazz. So I also wonder if part of this just has to do with her contempt for some of the music itself -- surely fans of this trash (she would think) have no idea about who played on it.

But it wasn't just her.

I bet that if the Wrecking Crew guys had any idea -- in the 60s -- how important the records they played on would become, we would have much better documentation. For that matter, folks like Dennis would probably have spoken up more about their actual contributions, too. Few folks realized at the time -- I bet -- that the LA pop music of the 60s would end up taking such a totemic place in our culture.

[Mikie]

It's really a shame, and I hope that one day she will come to that conclusion herself.

I wouldn't count on that.

[18thofMay]

Exactly.

I think everyone who has bothered to read or learn about this case would think the basic, source problem here is that session musicians played a lot of soundalike gigs. Absolutely.

But I wonder if part of it is connected to the fact that Carol doesn't care for most of the pop music of the era, as she repeated time and again in the late 90s, early 2000s. She was all about jazz. So I also wonder if part of this just has to do with her contempt for some of the music itself -- surely fans of this trash (she would think) have no idea about who played on it.

But it wasn't just her.

I bet that if the Wrecking Crew guys had any idea -- in the 60s -- how important the records they played on would become, we would have much better documentation. For that matter, folks like Dennis would probably have spoken up more about their actual contributions, too. Few folks realized at the time -- I bet -- that the LA pop music of the 60s would end up taking such a totemic place in our culture.

Brilliant!!

[c-man]

To answer Josh's question, Ron Brown is on a couple of "Wild Honey"-era AFMs, for "Untitled Tune #1" and "Untitled Tune (Part 2)".

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

To answer Josh's question, Ron Brown is on a couple of "Wild Honey"-era AFMs, for "Untitled Tune #1" and "Untitled Tune (Part 2)".

Thanks--I thought was the case.  Ah, those beloved old classics, "Untitled Tune no. 1" and "Unitled Tune (part 2)".

[shelter]

I bet that if the Wrecking Crew guys had any idea -- in the 60s -- how important the records they played on would become, we would have much better documentation. For that matter, folks like Dennis would probably have spoken up more about their actual contributions, too. Few folks realized at the time -- I bet -- that the LA pop music of the 60s would end up taking such a totemic place in our culture.

Absolutely no disrespect meant to the Wrecking Crew guys, but couldn't it just be that at least some of them, being jazz veterans, were just a bit too "snobby" to realize how great some of the pop music they were working on was? I mean, it's not like they were recording with local indie bands... It seems to me that if you're playing on records that literally sell millions of copies, you shouldn't need a time machine to realize that some of these songs just might turn out to become timeless classics.

[Tristero]

I bet that if the Wrecking Crew guys had any idea -- in the 60s -- how important the records they played on would become, we would have much better documentation. For that matter, folks like Dennis would probably have spoken up more about their actual contributions, too. Few folks realized at the time -- I bet -- that the LA pop music of the 60s would end up taking such a totemic place in our culture.

Absolutely no disrespect meant to the Wrecking Crew guys, but couldn't it just be that at least some of them, being jazz veterans, were just a bit too "snobby" to realize how great some of the pop music they were working on was? I mean, it's not like they were recording with local indie bands... It seems to me that if you're playing on records that literally sell millions of copies, you shouldn't need a time machine to realize that some of these songs just might turn out to become timeless classics.

And haven't we heard some of these musicians say that they enjoyed working with Brian more?  It's not surprising by the time you hit '65/'66.  The stuff he was cooking up for SMiLE was a bit closer to jazz, more challenging and satisfying to work on for pros like that, I imagine.

[Mikie]

Glen Campbell has said that he played on about five sessions of Good Vibrations (that he knows of). He said it during an interview that was filmed for the American Band video. If not that one, it was the "It's OK" NBC special. Can Glen's statement be corroborated?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Glen Campbell has said that he played on about five sessions of Good Vibrations (that he knows of). He said it during an interview that was filmed for the American Band video. If not that one, it was the "It's OK" NBC special. Can Glen's statement be corroborated?

You know, you could always open your box set and find out! 

[Wirestone]

It seems to me that if you're playing on records that literally sell millions of copies, you shouldn't need a time machine to realize that some of these songs just might turn out to become timeless classics.

Well, maybe. But the Macarena moved a lot of units too. And the pop music of the 50s -- the nearest thing these guys had to compare it to -- was nearly all disposable fluff (who listens to 50s pop today? Besides Brian, I mean).

[OneEar/OneEye]

(who listens to 50s pop today? Besides Brian, I mean).

Me.   I love 50's music, fluff and all.   

[Tord]

Me too.

[c-man]

Glen Campbell has said that he played on about five sessions of Good Vibrations (that he knows of). He said it during an interview that was filmed for the American Band video. If not that one, it was the "It's OK" NBC special. Can Glen's statement be corroborated?

That interview was for the syndicated 20th Anniversary TV Special (1981, with lots of 1980 concert footage from Knebworth and DC).
And no, it can't be corroborated b/c Glen's name is not on any of the "Good Vibrations" AFMs, nor is his voice on, or name referred to, on any of the session tapes.  Same for the rest of the SMiLE sessions.  If he did play on five "Good Vibrations" sessions, the tapes are missing from the vaults, the AFM sheets are missing from the Union and Capitol Records files, and they didn't make it to the final edit anyway.

[Andrew G. Doe]

.

[Wirestone]

.

Indeed.