Dumb Angel- was it completed ?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Andrew- we are interested in what you have to say, but there's no need for bad manners thank you.

Actually, I am in agreement with you that Brian would not have booked studio time without something concrete to record AND would not have changed his established working patterns. That's why I think that the album was probably already written at the "Dumb Angel" stage but as Brian's mental state began to deteriorate, the sessions did not end up recording everything that he had originally written. Instead, it moved on into different territory.  I would like to know what Brian originally had planned, when he was (presumably) more focused in a single direction.

What you think is based on reading one book, published 25 years ago. Brian's mental state did not deteriorate anything like as much, or as badly, as you seem to think - just listen to the sessions. Read more books, get a bigger sample, and then you'll understand that there was no separate "Dumb Angel" album: "Dumb Angel" was the working title for Smile for maybe a month, tops. As for composing the songs and working out the basic arrangements before going into the studio, yes, of course he did.

[OneEar/OneEye]

When exactly did Van and Brian begin writing songs?  Pet Sounds time period, right?  so, early '66.   Brian has said numerous times (though we must allot for the "Brian says many different things, blah, blah, blah" factor) that he and van wrote very quickly, the songs just poured out - so one might infer that a completed group of songs did exist - lyrics and all - prior to the sessions beginning in earnest. 
It was after that, with everything that was happening, that things were changed (ie "Van I need different/more/new lyrics).   
One of Brian's quotes from the TSS box book bugs me - (paraphrased) "Heroes and Villains came out eventually, but not in the way Van and I had originally concieved."  So then, what did they originally concieve?  Sadly he doesn't (can't?) elaborate.

[XXXCD]

I will read more books about this and , yes, Brian does sound sharp during the recording sessions (and I've heard just about every minute of the Sea of Tunes series plus all the others). But there was no doubt a lot of "strange behaviour" going on outside the studio which which led to several of the planned sessions being cancelled (according to the Gaines book at least).

Regarding the writing sessions with Van Dyke, it has always struck me that there are very few of Van Dyke's original lyrics featured in the released Smile material. There are known lyrics for Heroes and Villains, Surf's Up, Cabinessence, a tiny bit of Worms, a tiny bit of Great Shape, Wonderful, Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables. (Although the latter two tracks are not particularly cryptic and Van-Dyke like in their nature).

It doesn't seem to be a large quantity of lyrics given the time that he and Brian were supposedly spending together. Which makes me wonder if there was originally much more.

When I hear stories about the "lost" lyrics for Cabinessence about "reconnected telephones" I wonder what else Van Dyke came up with at the time, and what the structure of the original songs were that he was writing words for.

[Bicyclerider]

When exactly did Van and Brian begin writing songs?  Pet Sounds time period, right?  so, early '66.   Brian has said numerous times (though we must allot for the "Brian says many different things, blah, blah, blah" factor) that he and van wrote very quickly, the songs just poured out - so one might infer that a completed group of songs did exist - lyrics and all - prior to the sessions beginning in earnest. 
It was after that, with everything that was happening, that things were changed (ie "Van I need different/more/new lyrics).   
One of Brian's quotes from the TSS box book bugs me - (paraphrased) "Heroes and Villains came out eventually, but not in the way Van and I had originally concieved."  So then, what did they originally concieve?  Sadly he doesn't (can't?) elaborate.

They started writing in the summer - July/august 66.  Brian asked Van Dyke at a party at Terry Melcher's which the date is July if you believe VD.  Frank Holmes' recollections place the party a little earlier, probably in May ( he says it was in the spring)  but who am I to tell Brian And VD their memories are off?

[runnersdialzero]

Those damn "party" recordings with his stoner friends. Every single one of them, every 10 minutes, you hear Marilyn nagging at Brian. You get the feeling that people are just starting to have a little fun, and then you hear, "BRIAAN WHAT ARE YOU DOING BRIAAAN DID YOU REMEMBER TO DO THE DISHES BRIAAAANN" in that nasty witch-like tone of hers. God IJ SUT ANCN CANT E VNEU FUCING CATHIS NTOTHIS GOD IWANT HER SO BADLYgESY

[Cam Mott]

Those damn "party" recordings with his stoner friends. Every single one of them, every 10 minutes, you hear Marilyn nagging at Brian. You get the feeling that people are just starting to have a little fun, and then you hear, "BRIAAN WHAT ARE YOU DOING BRIAAAN DID YOU REMEMBER TO DO THE DISHES BRIAAAANN" in that nasty witch-like tone of hers. God IJ SUT ANCN CANT E VNEU FUCING CATHIS NTOTHIS GOD IWANT HER SO BADLYgESY

Would you like to lie down in the air conditioning?

[Mr. Cohen]

What you think is based on reading one book, published 25 years ago. Brian's mental state did not deteriorate anything like as much, or as badly, as you seem to think - just listen to the sessions. Read more books, get a bigger sample, and then you'll understand that there was no separate "Dumb Angel" album: "Dumb Angel" was the working title for Smile for maybe a month, tops. As for composing the songs and working out the basic arrangements before going into the studio, yes, of course he did.

Now, now - I think the topic creator has a point. Brian probably started the Dumb Angel recording session with 10 or so finished songs. Finished, as in he could play out their general structures on the piano. But then, he got in the studio, and some of the ideas didn't work like he envisioned, so he scrapped them or modified them. And all this time he was still coming up with new ideas at a prodigious rate. Take "Fire". That song just came out of nowhere. The "Wind Chimes" tag on the box set evolved out of a studio experiment for "Heroes and Villains".

If you want perfect evidence of the topic creator's theory, look at the "The Elements". Brian had that put on the back of the album sleeves, even though all our evidence seems to suggest that the concept was NEVER close to being finished. 

Plus, you say it's unreasonable to assume Brian changed his working methods massively from Pet Sounds to Smile. Ummm.... didn't he invent his modular approach during that period? Isn't that a big change?

[Andrew G. Doe]

What you think is based on reading one book, published 25 years ago. Brian's mental state did not deteriorate anything like as much, or as badly, as you seem to think - just listen to the sessions. Read more books, get a bigger sample, and then you'll understand that there was no separate "Dumb Angel" album: "Dumb Angel" was the working title for Smile for maybe a month, tops. As for composing the songs and working out the basic arrangements before going into the studio, yes, of course he did.

Now, now - I think the topic creator has a point. Brian probably started the Dumb Angel recording session with 10 or so finished songs. Finished, as in he could play out their general structures on the piano. But then, he got in the studio, and some of the ideas didn't work like he envisioned, so he scrapped them or modified them. And all this time he was still coming up with new ideas at a prodigious rate. Take "Fire". That song just came out of nowhere. The "Wind Chimes" tag on the box set evolved out of a studio experiment for "Heroes and Villains".

If you want perfect evidence of the topic creator's theory, look at the "The Elements". Brian had that put on the back of the album sleeves, even though all our evidence seems to suggest that the concept was NEVER close to being finished.  

Plus, you say it's unreasonable to assume Brian changed his working methods massively from Pet Sounds to Smile. Ummm.... didn't he invent his modular approach during that period? Isn't that a big change?

Feels = modules.