When was Dennis Point of no return?

[Curtis Leon]

I believe Dennis would have bounced back ... it was an accidental drowning.  I can see him in my mind today.

I'm not so sure. By the accounts I've heard and read, Dennis was really bad in the last few months of 1983. If he hadn't had that drowning accident, he probably wouldn't have made it much longer. It's sad to say, but I think it's true. I don't think he would have lived to see something like Live Aid, some 18 months later, for example.

To be fair, Brian was really bad during the early 80s as well, perhaps even worse in some ways. You can't predict out what ifs, and it's very possible Dennis could've rebounded and gotten the help he needed.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I believe Dennis would have bounced back ... it was an accidental drowning.  I can see him in my mind today.

There are those who believe it wasn't entirely accidental, more the result of someone who just wanted some rest and peace at any cost.

[Slow In Brain]

When the news of his death was released I thought that Manson's family were behind it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

When the news of his death was released I thought that Manson's family were behind it.

I'm not gonna say the obvious... 

[Ron]

Just to add a personal note here ... nothing is preordained until it is.

My mother died this summer, unexpectedly, at the age of 58. She had been sick for a long time -- but not with what ultimately took her life. Her fatal illness was a side effect, a linked condition, that happened totally by chance.

Now, I look back and wonder -- was this just what was meant to be? She had been fighting this chronic illness for decades, after all. But she also might still be alive if this side effect had been addressed sooner. And not sooner by a matter of months or years. I mean sooner by a matter of hours.

And thus it is with Dennis. We can say it was inevitable. And it was, because he did end up losing his life. But it wasn't, because drowning isn't preordained. And if someone had pulled him out of the water a few minutes after he went in, his life wouldn't have ended that way.

We tell ourselves stories to snatch order from chaos. Death never makes sense. But we have to live with it somehow.

I agree, and that was my point, it wasn't too late to turn around until he ran out of breath and couldn't make it to the surface.  Brian was even worse off (arguably) and he turned it around.  People shouldn't be given up on, and they especially shouldn't give up on themselves.  I don't think everyone had given up on Dennis and I don't even thik he had given up on himself.  He would have bounced back. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

Just to add a personal note here ... nothing is preordained until it is.

My mother died this summer, unexpectedly, at the age of 58. She had been sick for a long time -- but not with what ultimately took her life. Her fatal illness was a side effect, a linked condition, that happened totally by chance.

Now, I look back and wonder -- was this just what was meant to be? She had been fighting this chronic illness for decades, after all. But she also might still be alive if this side effect had been addressed sooner. And not sooner by a matter of months or years. I mean sooner by a matter of hours.

And thus it is with Dennis. We can say it was inevitable. And it was, because he did end up losing his life. But it wasn't, because drowning isn't preordained. And if someone had pulled him out of the water a few minutes after he went in, his life wouldn't have ended that way.

We tell ourselves stories to snatch order from chaos. Death never makes sense. But we have to live with it somehow.

I agree, and that was my point, it wasn't too late to turn around until he ran out of breath and couldn't make it to the surface.  Brian was even worse off (arguably) and he turned it around.  People shouldn't be given up on, and they especially shouldn't give up on themselves.  I don't think everyone had given up on Dennis and I don't even thik he had given up on himself.  He would have bounced back. 

Except that he didn't bounce back, and he did give up. Which is why he's not been around for some 28 years.

[Dave in KC]

A lot of great replies in this thread, but there is something that hit me. Was one of Denny's come back/sobering moments because of the dive Carl took? We hear them in the Australian tour where it seemed Dennis was in CONTROL (compared to CW) when Carl was out and about. Is this because "he wanted to be clean" or because he saw his brother's state and didn't want to see him do the same self-destructiveness that he and Brian went through/are going through.

That last sentence implies that Brian is still living a self-destructive lifestyle. Am I reading it correctly?

[Jay]

I might have asked this question before, I can't remember at the moment. When Dennis was finally found in the water, did he have any kind of head wound, or any indication of an injury?

[Slow In Brain]

AGD state the 'obvious' if you wish. I think that 28 years ago you may have been more naive about the BB world like I was.

[runnersdialzero]

I agree, and that was my point, it wasn't too late to turn around until he ran out of breath and couldn't make it to the surface.  Brian was even worse off (arguably) and he turned it around.  People shouldn't be given up on, and they especially shouldn't give up on themselves.  I don't think everyone had given up on Dennis and I don't even thik he had given up on himself.  He would have bounced back. 

Except that he didn't bounce back, and he did give up. Which is why he's not been around for some 28 years.

This was kind of what I was going for with the "insightful" comment. Sorry, wasn't trying to piss you off, but I initially interpreted it as the typically cold "no exceptions" sentiment toward mental health, the idea that it's mostly self-inflicted and people choose to have the problems they do.

Brian supposedly being "worse off" doesn't necessarily mean anything. We're talking two entirely different people here, and one person who had it pretty badly's bouncing back doesn't necessarily mean someone else, even his brother, is capable of the same. Everyone is different.

Sad as it is to say, I do believe some folks are beyond help. I don't know if Dennis was or wasn't, it's not my place to say. Brian's still alive, I'm extremely grateful for that (as I'm sure he ultimately is, too), but the definition of "turned around" becomes a bit murky in instances like his. I think he's the only one who truly knows if he did, but I don't think most people are even up to facing such an overwhelming concept. Basically, some folks just survive and others surive and really do manage to turn things around. To some folks, merely surviving isn't worth their time and effort (to them, that is).

But anyway. You're all alive! The sun is shining, the world is yours, etc. etc. etc. = )

[stack-o-tracks]

Barbara said that she felt Dennis had died long before his body did.

I never met the guy but it seems like he was always looking for a way to find peace. A way to get away from himself. Whether it be music, getting f***ed up, etc. He's lucky he got to live as long as he did, a lot of addicts don't.

There are those who say Dennis isn't dead, he'll live forever through his songs. And that's the way I see it. A friend who's always there even though he's gone.

[c-man]

I might have asked this question before, I can't remember at the moment. When Dennis was finally found in the water, did he have any kind of head wound, or any indication of an injury?

Yes, there was a head gash, but how recent is the question.  Hal Blaine, who was at a nearby boat & heard the distress call, believes DW hit his head on something while resurfacing and drowned unconscious.  Others believe the wound wasn't so fresh and Dennis was conscious until he drowned.  I'm not sure if the coroner was able to decide how recent the bruise was.

[endofposts]

Yes, there was a head gash, but how recent is the question.  Hal Blaine, who was at a nearby boat & heard the distress call, believes DW hit his head on something while resurfacing and drowned unconscious.  Others believe the wound wasn't so fresh and Dennis was conscious until he drowned.  I'm not sure if the coroner was able to decide how recent the bruise was.
[/quote]

They'd be able to tell.  Look at the Natalie Wood case, where it was proved she drowned, even though she had a gash on her head.  Or even watch a few Columbo episodes.  Since drowning was the cause of death, he was conscious, or they would have put that in the report.  People were watching him dive in and he didn't come back to the surface.   It just happened.  He was extremely drunk at the time, too.

I think people who really believe that Dennis would have turned his life around and lived as long as Brian don't understand alcoholism or how bad Dennis had it.  He was already a physical wreck and I'm sure his liver and other things were shot.  It was hard for him to stop drinking because he had DT's whenever he'd try to stop.  He had those so bad he had seizures.  Withdrawal from alcohol is more dangerous than heroin withdrawal so even stopping drinking could have been dangerous for him.  I don't think Brian was ever an alcoholic, though he was a binge drinker.  

[adamghost]

I think bottom line, Dennis knew, or believed, that he was screwed at that point.  So it almost doesn't matter whether he consciously or unconsciously committed suicide.  I don't get the feeling the guy was fighting for his life.

[Dave in KC]

I'm with Hal Blaine on the explanation. It happens all the time to un-skilled divers under boats and objects. No, the mere fact Dennis was retreiving his old artifacts from the bottom tells me he still wanted to live. It was an accident.

[endofposts]

If he weren't extremely drunk at the time, it may not have occurred to him to dive into freezing cold water to look for old objects and he also may not have drowned, because his reaction time and alertness would have been different.   His BAL was 2.6 when he was fished out of the water; drunk driving is triggered at .08 (or .10 years before that).  His last rehab doctor discussed it at the time, that drinking was a contributing factor.  Dennis was even drunker when he entered rehab a few days before.  He couldn't even sober up on his way to a rehab (which he skipped out on early, thus winding up on the boat that day).

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2209&dat=19840114&id=g5orAAAAIBAJ&sjid=1vkFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6785,2122807

[Jon Stebbins]

I think people need to understand a few things... a high blood alcohol for Dennis was normal...there is a thing called tolerance and by '83 his was built way up. The people that were with him knew he was buzzed, but not falling down drunk like I would be with a blood alcohol half of that. Also Dennis swam in colder water than 58 many, many times...it wasn't a ridiculously cold water temp for him. Bringing stuff up off the bottom proves nothing, in fact, the last item he brought up was a photo of he and Karen on their wedding day...you think that proves he wanted to live somehow? That makes no sense...seeing it could have been extremely depressing. The gash on his head...he'd been in a pretty rough fight the day before... some accounts say he got beat up by a younger guy. So he likely had face and head lacerations no matter if he hit his head on the dock or not. There is not a definitive call to make on this. More than one of his closest friends (you know who you are) were told by DENNIS in those last months that he was going to be dead soon. Those were Dennis' words. He knew something, whether it was trying to gain sympathy, or if it was a premonition, or a signal he was giving up...there's enough evidence to at least say maybe he checked out...maybe he escaped. I tend to lean that way. You can still see the horrible inevitability in the eyes of his friends...and some of them still half expect him to surface and be okay. Either way, he gave us such incredibly honest and moving music, he truly poured his heart and soul into it...and because of that he lives on.

[b00ts]

I think bottom line, Dennis knew, or believed, that he was screwed at that point.  So it almost doesn't matter whether he consciously or unconsciously committed suicide.  I don't get the feeling the guy was fighting for his life.

Bingo. I would imagine that he had thoughts of suicide but probably didn't consciously decide to end it all that day - but it could have been unconscious. With all the self-destructive activity the poor guy engaged in, he certainly had a death wish somewhere, whether consciously or subconsciously.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

It was hard for him to stop drinking because he had DT's whenever he'd try to stop.  He had those so bad he had seizures.  Withdrawal from alcohol is more dangerous than heroin withdrawal so even stopping drinking could have been dangerous for him.

I can attest to that...that's how my mom passed.

[Jay]

They just concluded not to long ago that Amy Whinehouse's death was alcohol related.

[endofposts]

I read a People magazine account of his last hours.  It was mentioned that he was staggering at one point, so even though he had a high tolerance for alcohol, he still could be impaired by it.  It also could have blunted his sense of cold.  He was diving for about an hour off and on.  He may have been used to swimming in cold water, but that doesn't mean he wasn't able to get hypothermia.  The more he was in that water, the more his body temperature dropped.  That could have made him fatigued and unable to get up out of the water that one last time.  His drowning was witnessed, as it happened, and his "friends" on the boat literally did nothing about it.  One of the witnesses in the article described seeing Dennis swim very slowly, then go under the water, and bubbles were coming up.  I don't think the guy realized it, but that was a sign that Dennis stopped holding his breath (which means he was drowning in front of the guy's eyes).  The man did nothing.  He thought Dennis was playing a trick and would come back up.  Others thought the same thing and went looking for him at local bars, hoping he re-surfaced somewhere else and went to get a drink.  It took them hours to call in harbor patrol to go look for him. I wonder if Dennis' family bore any ill will towards the people who were with Dennis that day?

[b00ts]

I read a People magazine account of his last hours.  It was mentioned that he was staggering at one point, so even though he had a high tolerance for alcohol, he still could be impaired by it.  It also could have blunted his sense of cold.  He was diving for about an hour off and on.  He may have been used to swimming in cold water, but that doesn't mean he wasn't able to get hypothermia.  The more he was in that water, the more his body temperature dropped.  That could have made him fatigued and unable to get up out of the water that one last time.  His drowning was witnessed, as it happened, and his "friends" on the boat literally did nothing about it.  One of the witnesses in the article described seeing Dennis swim very slowly, then go under the water, and bubbles were coming up.  I don't think the guy realized it, but that was a sign that Dennis stopped holding his breath (which means he was drowning in front of the guy's eyes).  The man did nothing.  He thought Dennis was playing a trick and would come back up.  Others thought the same thing and went looking for him at local bars, hoping he re-surfaced somewhere else and went to get a drink.  It took them hours to call in harbor patrol to go look for him. I wonder if Dennis' family bore any ill will towards the people who were with Dennis that day?

Very interesting. Speaking from experience, when someone you love is self-destructive and an addict, they often hang around with other self destructive idiots (not calling these people idiots necessarily, who knows what they were thinking). When the loved one dies, there is often bitterness and recrimination against the people they surrounded themselves with, but in the end, it was Dennis' actions that caused his death and no one else can really be blamed for it. It does really suck to hear that, though... he was so close to being saved. C'est la vie. He probably would have self destructed a week later.

[letsmakeit31]

A very sad end to an full and rich life. Denny touched many peoples lives in his own life and beyond. For myself I feel that I know him as a friend via his music. Someone you could talk to about your problems over a drink or two late into the night.
Like all who known him personally I felt that he had very big heart and that even Mike told that he would give the shirt off his back if someone needed it. Thank you all for the replies to this. I'm sure Denny is looking down proud of the Beach Boys esp his brother Brian

[c-man]

What's really a shame is that he didn't live to the New Year, when Jimmy & Carl's intervention was planned.  Of course there's a good chance it wouldn't have worked, or maybe worked for only for a little while but not long term, but I think it was probably his best bet.  But we'll never know. 

[Alex]

At least Denny lived longer than some of his other self destructive rock drummer peers/counterparts (i.e. Keith Moon).