When was Dennis Point of no return?

[runnersdialzero]

Jon will know much more about this, but I seem to recall reading about a major showdown occurring at an airport in 1977, when the band almost broke up for good. This seemed to be a pivotal time for Dennis and Carl. It all came to a head regarding the drug use within the band and/or the future musical approach, with Mike and Al advocating looking backward following the success of Endless Summer and 15 Big Ones, and Dennis and Carl wishing to continue forward creatively from where Holland left off. Brian was busy being caught in the middle and was fairly useless; a pawn, but perhaps a knowing and willful one. Judging by Dennis's comments about the MIU album, I think the direction of the band from that crisis point onward was deeply frustrating and when you consider the restrictions that were reportedly imposed upon him regarding his future solo career, events seemed to drain all  the creative inspiration that had previously fueled him. There were of course many other factors in Dennis' downfall, but the musical state of the band following 1977 has to be factored into the equation.

[Jon Stebbins]

Jon will know much more about this, but I seem to recall reading about a major showdown occurring at an airport in 1977, when the band almost broke up for good. This seemed to be a pivotal time for Dennis and Carl. It all came to a head regarding the drug use within the band and/or the future musical approach, with Mike and Al advocating looking backward following the success of Endless Summer and 15 Big Ones, and Dennis and Carl wishing to continue forward creatively from where Holland left off. Brian was busy being caught in the middle and was fairly useless; a pawn, but perhaps a knowing and willful one. Judging by Dennis's comments about the MIU album, I think the direction of the band from that crisis point onward was deeply frustrating and when you consider the restrictions that were reportedly imposed upon him regarding his future solo career, events seemed to drain all  the creative inspiration that had previously fueled him. There were of course many other factors in Dennis' downfall, but the musical state of the band following 1977 has to be factored into the equation.

That's right... Sept. 1 1977 after their Central Park NY concert. The ensuing months became ugly

[Dave in KC]

I believe a Rolling Stone reporter saw it all go down and his thoughts were detailed in the Peter Ames Carlin book.

[adamghost]

Chiming in here...I've heard it said by those whose opinions I respect that the tipping point may well have been when Dennis was forced to choose between staying with the group or going on the solo tour for his album.  This dovetails with what else that Jon and others have said upthread.

[SurfRiderHawaii]

Jon will know much more about this, but I seem to recall reading about a major showdown occurring at an airport in 1977, when the band almost broke up for good. This seemed to be a pivotal time for Dennis and Carl. It all came to a head regarding the drug use within the band and/or the future musical approach, with Mike and Al advocating looking backward following the success of Endless Summer and 15 Big Ones, and Dennis and Carl wishing to continue forward creatively from where Holland left off. Brian was busy being caught in the middle and was fairly useless; a pawn, but perhaps a knowing and willful one. Judging by Dennis's comments about the MIU album, I think the direction of the band from that crisis point onward was deeply frustrating and when you consider the restrictions that were reportedly imposed upon him regarding his future solo career, events seemed to drain all  the creative inspiration that had previously fueled him. There were of course many other factors in Dennis' downfall, but the musical state of the band following 1977 has to be factored into the equation.

That's right... Sept. 1 1977 after their Central Park NY concert. The ensuing months became ugly

So, as AGD said, from 1978 on.

[Jay]

I forgot that the infamous fight happened after the Central Park show. That's interesting, considering that Carl is noticeably "altered" on the recording of that show.

[Loaf]

Chiming in here...I've heard it said by those whose opinions I respect that the tipping point may well have been when Dennis was forced to choose between staying with the group or going on the solo tour for his album.  This dovetails with what else that Jon and others have said upthread.

Makes sense to me too. That no matter how much effort, genius etc... he put into his solo stuff, he would never have the full support of the BBs. This happened to Brian too. What a f*cked up group dynamic that was.

[Sound of Free]

I agree with others that Murry's death was a factor. It seems like Dennis was trying to make peace – calling Murry during the fights and trying to get closer to him – and almost got there, but never quite made it. Skipping the funeral showed he wasn't able to come to grips with Murry's life OR death.

The fact that Dennis often spoke about Murry in his awful, final days in 1983 showed that he could never deal with it. Some therapy in 1973 might have done wonders from Dennis.

The 1977 blowup, the ultimatum about not touring for his solo album and the sale of Brother Studios all added to the slide, and I think the Rocky-Stan beating might have been the final straw. On the Knebworth show, Dennis still has a tremendous spark. I love the interplay between Dennis and Mike Meros on "Surfer Girl."

That beating, and the heatbreaking "I got beat up for $300" quote took a lot out of him, I think.

[Mike's Beard]

If I'd had been in Dennis's shoes I would have said "screw it"  and gone solo when the ultimatum was given after POB. Frankly the Beach Boys needed him more then he did them by this point.

[c-man]

If I'd had been in Dennis's shoes I would have said "screw it"  and gone solo when the ultimatum was given after POB. Frankly the Beach Boys needed him more then he did them by this point.

There were other factors that played into Dennis' decision to cancel the tour...I'm not saying the ultimatum wasn't a big one, but I think there's a very good chance it wouldn't have happened even if it weren't for that.  Michael Andreas, who led the BBs horn section and helped Dennis put together the band for the POB tour, told me that Dennis was very upset with the record label b/c they refused to support (financially) a string section for the tour, and he says that's when Dennis decided to scrub it.  But he also believes that, as the tour dates got closer & the rehearsals kicked into high gear, the reality of carrying the whole load of a performing solo career on his shoulders caused Dennis to get cold feet (Andreas kind of implies that Dennis used the refusal of CBS to fund the string section as an excuse to back out of the tour).  And, let's face it, in late '77 Dennis was in dire straights financially and needed the income from the Beach Boys tours.   So, there were many factors coming down on him at once...I hope ALL of that makes it into the movie, instead of a one-dimensional portrayal of events. 

[Jon Stebbins]

If I'd had been in Dennis's shoes I would have said "screw it"  and gone solo when the ultimatum was given after POB. Frankly the Beach Boys needed him more then he did them by this point.

There were other factors that played into Dennis' decision to cancel the tour...I'm not saying the ultimatum wasn't a big one, but I think there's a very good chance it wouldn't have happened even if it weren't for that.  Michael Andreas, who led the BBs horn section and helped Dennis put together the band for the POB tour, told me that Dennis was very upset with the record label b/c they refused to support (financially) a string section for the tour, and he says that's when Dennis decided to scrub it.  But he also believes that, as the tour dates got closer & the rehearsals kicked into high gear, the reality of carrying the whole load of a performing solo career on his shoulders caused Dennis to get cold feet (Andreas kind of implies that Dennis used the refusal of CBS to fund the string section as an excuse to back out of the tour).  And, let's face it, in late '77 Dennis was in dire straights financially and needed the income from the Beach Boys tours.   So, there were many factors coming down on him at once...I hope ALL of that makes it into the movie, instead of a one-dimensional portrayal of events. 

There was a certain book published 11 years ago that said this...
During the late fall of 1977 dates had been announced for a short Dennis Wilson solo tour.  Venues such as the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion and other concert halls of a medium size were booked.  “I’m starting my own concert career,” said Dennis.  “My first date is in November in New York.  I’ll be touring with a small orchestra.  I’ll be doing about 10 cities.”  Dennis then added, “If I’m not with the group, I’ll do more,” hinting at the possibility of leaving the Beach Boys.  The press releases revealed a 22 piece orchestra would back Dennis and that Ricci Martin would be the opening act.  It was also reported that Carl, Bruce, and Brian might be involved in some of these dates.  Soon after this announcement was made, predictable conflicts arose within the Beach Boys camp.  Some members of the band were very unhappy at the prospect of Dennis striking out on his own.  There were arguments that Dennis’ plans were too expensive.  A member of the Beach Boys touring band explained, “He wanted a big setting, lots of horns, strings, and I think the record company wasn’t willing to go that far in terms of expenditures”.  Dennis gracefully canceled his dates saying a commitment with the band made it impossible for him to complete his plans.  He promised he would reschedule the shows in the coming months.  Of course he did not, and soon the possibility of a Dennis Wilson solo tour had vanished forever.

[BillA]

If I'd had been in Dennis's shoes I would have said "screw it"  and gone solo when the ultimatum was given after POB. Frankly the Beach Boys needed him more then he did them by this point.

I disagree.  This is probably the point that Dennis became a burdon - (will he show or won't he show and iof he does show will he be sober).

In my mind 1977 and 1978 are the nadir of the Beach Boys.  I have always blamed Mike for this but I wonder if that is fair.  Carl's condition had turned him from the lynchpin of the band to a liability.  Brian was an onstage disaster (I witnessed this in Providence where Brian took a run at Dennis after Dennis unplugged Brian's piano because Brian wasn't playing the right song - I thought it was the Kinks) and Dennis was not reliable.

It seemed like Dennis and Carl were giving up.

[Ed Roach]

You know, there was such a myriad of contributing factors, most of which have been mentioned here.  One of the amazing features he possessed was the ability to bounce back from absolutely anything, including almost severing two different limbs, only to defy all odds by coming back to pound the drums & piano the way he did pretty much right to the end...
The thing is, it was hard, right until the last few months or so, to not expect that he'd bounce back yet again - hell, look at Brian!  And I disagree, Jon, about "...there were also sporadic periods of "healthy" living in those years... beginning in '77 were a permanent thing of the past".  There were always spurts, and he did make some veiled attempts...  But it was so easy to see that spark in his eyes, and believe that anything was possible...

[adamghost]

I think Dennis and Carl DID give up...in the sense that there was this big comeback in the mid '70s, this big build, and then when it finally all comes to fruition in '86, look what happened.  15 BIG ONES clearly wasn't what they wanted.  And then to see how the whole thing was starting to play out after that...well, who could blame them?  They were both kind of trapped in something they couldn't get behind.

[hypehat]

The whole Beach Boys dynamic is something so colossal in their lives, though - it's the only environment they knew. It's family, it's been that way for the last 15 years and you never knew anything else, so it's everything.

Adam, what you mention so clearly relates to Brian - those guys loved their big brother, and for him to essentially check out on 15BO must have been heartbreaking, and whilst they obviously supported what he did - their presence on Love You and Adult/Child (and the Cocaine Sessions, to whit) bears that out - I imagine Brian's problems were also a worrying influence. I mean, these are fifties nuclear families. Mental illness doesn't factor.

I'm not really making sense, i guess.

[Jay]

Before Dennis dove into the water that last time, do you think he knew? Sorry to be so blunt, but it's something I've been thinking about lately.

[Jay]

It seems to me that the True and final "point of no return" was the superbowl sunday beating. Damn it, I hate that Rocky Pamplin creep. If I ever saw him...let's just say that it wouldn't end well.

[Wirestone]

Just to add a personal note here ... nothing is preordained until it is.

My mother died this summer, unexpectedly, at the age of 58. She had been sick for a long time -- but not with what ultimately took her life. Her fatal illness was a side effect, a linked condition, that happened totally by chance.

Now, I look back and wonder -- was this just what was meant to be? She had been fighting this chronic illness for decades, after all. But she also might still be alive if this side effect had been addressed sooner. And not sooner by a matter of months or years. I mean sooner by a matter of hours.

And thus it is with Dennis. We can say it was inevitable. And it was, because he did end up losing his life. But it wasn't, because drowning isn't preordained. And if someone had pulled him out of the water a few minutes after he went in, his life wouldn't have ended that way.

We tell ourselves stories to snatch order from chaos. Death never makes sense. But we have to live with it somehow.

[Jay]

Just to add a personal note here ... nothing is preordained until it is.

My mother died this summer, unexpectedly, at the age of 58. She had been sick for a long time -- but not with what ultimately took her life. Her fatal illness was a side effect, a linked condition, that happened totally by chance.

Now, I look back and wonder -- was this just what was meant to be? She had been fighting this chronic illness for decades, after all. But she also might still be alive if this side effect had been addressed sooner. And not sooner by a matter of months or years. I mean sooner by a matter of hours.

And thus it is with Dennis. We can say it was inevitable. And it was, because he did end up losing his life. But it wasn't, because drowning isn't preordained. And if someone had pulled him out of the water a few minutes after he went in, his life wouldn't have ended that way.

We tell ourselves stories to snatch order from chaos. Death never makes sense. But we have to live with it somehow.

Post of the decade.

[18thofMay]

Just to add a personal note here ... nothing is preordained until it is.

My mother died this summer, unexpectedly, at the age of 58. She had been sick for a long time -- but not with what ultimately took her life. Her fatal illness was a side effect, a linked condition, that happened totally by chance.

Now, I look back and wonder -- was this just what was meant to be? She had been fighting this chronic illness for decades, after all. But she also might still be alive if this side effect had been addressed sooner. And not sooner by a matter of months or years. I mean sooner by a matter of hours.

And thus it is with Dennis. We can say it was inevitable. And it was, because he did end up losing his life. But it wasn't, because drowning isn't preordained. And if someone had pulled him out of the water a few minutes after he went in, his life wouldn't have ended that way.

We tell ourselves stories to snatch order from chaos. Death never makes sense. But we have to live with it somehow.

Post of the decade.

Great post indeed.

[Jonas]

A lot of great replies in this thread, but there is something that hit me. Was one of Denny's come back/sobering moments because of the dive Carl took? We hear them in the Australian tour where it seemed Dennis was in CONTROL (compared to CW) when Carl was out and about. Is this because "he wanted to be clean" or because he saw his brother's state and didn't want to see him do the same self-destructiveness that he and Brian went through/are going through.

[DonnyL]

I believe Dennis would have bounced back ... it was an accidental drowning.  I can see him in my mind today.

[Jay]

A lot of great replies in this thread, but there is something that hit me. Was one of Denny's come back/sobering moments because of the dive Carl took? We hear them in the Australian tour where it seemed Dennis was in CONTROL (compared to CW) when Carl was out and about. Is this because "he wanted to be clean" or because he saw his brother's state and didn't want to see him do the same self-destructiveness that he and Brian went through/are going through.

I totally forgot about this until your post, but there is an interesting scene in the Melbourne video that circulates from the Australian tour. Carl tells everybody to get Dennis's solo album, and Dennis says something like "He(Carl) got it for free". Carl then says "That's bullsh*T", and Dennis reacts with shock, and then whispers something in Carl's ear.

[Jay]

I believe Dennis would have bounced back ... it was an accidental drowning.  I can see him in my mind today.

I'm not so sure. By the accounts I've heard and read, Dennis was really bad in the last few months of 1983. If he hadn't had that drowning accident, he probably wouldn't have made it much longer. It's sad to say, but I think it's true. I don't think he would have lived to see something like Live Aid, some 18 months later, for example.

[endofposts]

I find it hard to believe he expected the record company to fund a string section for an entire tour.  Really?  Not even Brian had that kind of hubris.