Smile discredits Brian's genius

[tansen]

I find it very hard to listen to BWPS after getting the boxset. BWPS sounds so... artificial.

Ditto.

And about the OP's statement, I'd turn it around and say TSS confirms Brian's genius.

[cablegeddon]

I find it very hard to listen to BWPS after getting the boxset. BWPS sounds so... artificial.

and the vocals......but I still listen more to BWPS. A couple of the songs on BWPS are so well done.

[runnersdialzero]

Both versions have their pros and cons. Now let us never speak of it again.

[XXXCD]

Wow, another come-lately who thinks he knows Brian's work more than Brian.

Nope- although I haven't gone under this username since the days of the Smile Shop ! Of course I don't know Brian better than Brian, but I would say that his memories of the Smile era  have diminished somewhat since 1967. He's clearly been unwell for many years as well. So I don't put much faith in the 2004 BWPS release being a "completed" version of the album. More like a new arrangement based around the unfinished sessions.

Just to clarify my original posting.... I love Smile material and have been listening and re-listening to it since I purchased my first bootleg in 1991. My point is that the finished article would (probably) have been SO MUCH better and it (probably) bears little comparison to the versions of Smile that have circulated since 1967. Most of it is missing for goodness sake !

This is not to say that the existing recordings do not display the work of a genius. They clearly do. But I think that Smile would have showed Brian to have been EVEN BETTER than the general public actually think. I also think that Smile fans are fooling themselves if they think they know what the finished thing would have sounded like. If it was anywhere near completion then the Beach Boys would have released the thing in back in 1967 (down to commercial pressures apart from anything). There was clearly much work still left to do.

PS- To the user who called me stupid... Are you stating that the Elements definatly consisted of Vegetables, Wind-Chimes etc ? On what basis ? Is this not speculation mostly invented since 1967 ? The  original album sleve listed the Elements as a separate track, which would make Smile 13 tracks long (the same as Pet Sounds) which was the normal length for LP records.

[OneEar/OneEye]

I don't know anything about genius really.  Everyone is a genius and an imbecile - all of us belive it or not, or at the very least I believe we all have the potential there inside.  Everyone is, if you will, a dumb angel.   I see flashes of "genius" all the time in people (and yes, even sometimes in myself), but it rarely is something that lasts.   How many geniuses remain geniuses?  Does a moment of genius make someone a genius for the rest of their life?  Really all depends on who's looking at it and from what perspective I suppose.
Undoubtedly Brian Wilson was operating on a level  (for many years, not just 66/67) that one could call genius-like, brilliant, or any number of other labels.   How much of his position, timing, being in the moment had a hand in eliciting his genius/brilliance/et al?   I think one of the biggest things about this whole genius thing is that, essentially, the people who seem to have/have had true "genius"  are those that take a step way out of the box and create something new - whether they do so in music, film, science, or whatever.  They reach for something completely different.  Through history there have been many of these people in all fields and endeavors.  During the sixties Brian was one of them.   
That's simply a fact with or without Smile.  Had they been able to comlete the album back then this fact might be clearer to more people is all.

[runnersdialzero]

Again, what's the alternative? You want this sh*t to just remain rotting in the vaults as it has for the last 45 years?

I'm also tired of the bogus handwritten list being used as evidence. Well, not "bogus", but clearly not Brian's doing, and actually listening to the thing as a tracklist reveals it to be a total clusterfuck. There's no way that was a legit tracklist, ever. Merely a list of songs.

[Newguy562]

I find it very hard to listen to BWPS after getting the boxset. BWPS sounds so... artificial.

At first i was Considering never to listen to BWPS again but what i like about BWPS is there are lyrics/singing on "On a Holiday(Holiday)","Song for Children(Look)","Child is the Father of the Man","In Blue Hawaii(Love to Say Dada)"
The smile sessions is missing the lyrics/ singing on all the songs i just mentioned :/

Those are pretty much the only BWPS tracks I listen to (albeit rarely), solely for the "completeness" factor. 

exactly thats the only reason i listen tho bwps still. i wish he would've completed those tracks in 67 that album could've been on the same level as pet sounds. (one can only wish)

[Aegir]

Smile is better than Pet Sounds.

[Newguy562]

Smile is better than Pet Sounds.

why you say that?

[SBonilla]

I find it very hard to listen to BWPS after getting the boxset. BWPS sounds so... artificial.

and the vocals......but I still listen more to BWPS. A couple of the songs on BWPS are so well done.

I don't listen to BWPS because of the woman with the vibrato in her voice.

No one used vibrato on Beach Boys records, not Love, Jardine, Johnston, the Rovells or the Wilsons. Vibrato does belong on a Beach Boys related record. Dennis (I know, we're not talking about him...), for one said he hated vibrato.

[MBE]

I don't think the half-finished versions of "Smile" that have been circulating over the years are a fitting testament to Brian's genius. Not entirely but what they put together now is.

Only ONE track was ever completed for the album and that was Good Vibrations.  You could never tell what it would have sounded like from all the fragments of music and vocals that were recorded (which is what most people try and do with the other Smile tracks).
Our Prayer, Cabinessence, so much was basically complete. Yes some vocals were missing but given that the Smiley and 20/20 overdubs were done so soon after it really makes no difference. How he wanted it to come out, it came out.

The tracks reconstructed by the Beach Boys in later years were not Smile-era edits. From what I have read, Brian's days as a serious producer were pretty much over by the end of 1967.

Very untrue as Friends, Sunflower and choice moments from 20/20, Spring, and Surf's Up attest to.

What would these tracks have sounded like if they were finished by Brian during the smile recordings? No one knows. But it's safe to say that they would have been different than the released versions.

You have a good argument for Wonderful, and Wind Chimes, perhaps even Vega-tables, but Surf's Up (except for the ending and Carl taking part of the lead), Our Prayer, and Cabinessence all stayed more or less the same. Heroes is a hard one, but the version that came out was quite a production and had many Smile elements to it.

Three of the tracks printed on the album sleeve (the Old Master Painter,  I'm in Great Shape and the Elements) are so incomplete they don't even feature on the Smiley Smile Message Board's 2011 box-set discussion. As for "Holidays" and "Look" etc... it's debateable if they were even intended for the album.

I don't miss anything from these. Perhaps they would have stayed instrumental. Clunky is the word I would use for the 2003 lyrics and only a small bit that was writen in 1966 aired for the first time then. Being that Brian recorded instrumentals for seven previous albums, plus two to come after I would say it's a fair bet that a fair amount of the songs may never have had lyrics.

I reckon up to 50% of Smile vocals are instrumentation were never recorded, let alone assembled into album tracks. I would imagine Brian was aiming for 10 very tightly produced tracks with complex vocal arrangements, and (possibly) ways of flowing the tracks together. But it definately WAS NOT going to be the disjointed bits of music that are passed off as "smile" these days.

There were 13 songs on Pet Sounds and honestly I think Smile could very well have been a 2 LP set like it is now. Remember LP's before the late sixties (US ones anyway) were often only a half hour long. As far as final assembly I doubt much was done but I can't picture any more music needing to be done and the words feel 75 percent there to me.

[MBE]

I find it very hard to listen to BWPS after getting the boxset. BWPS sounds so... artificial.

Agreed. I do feel Smile is now done and is what it is meant to be.

[MBE]

I find it very hard to listen to BWPS after getting the boxset. BWPS sounds so... artificial.

At first i was Considering never to listen to BWPS again but what i like about BWPS is there are lyrics/singing on "On a Holiday(Holiday)","Song for Children(Look)","Child is the Father of the Man","In Bue Hawaii(Love to Say Dada)"
The smile sessions is missing the lyrics/ singing on all the songs i just mentioned :/

I find it very hard to listen to BWPS after getting the boxset. BWPS sounds so... artificial.

At first i was Considering never to listen to BWPS again but what i like about BWPS is there are lyrics/singing on "On a Holiday(Holiday)","Song for Children(Look)","Child is the Father of the Man","In Blue Hawaii(Love to Say Dada)"
The smile sessions is missing the lyrics/ singing on all the songs i just mentioned :/

Those are pretty much the only BWPS tracks I listen to (albeit rarely), solely for the "completeness" factor. 

Really those are my least favorite. The ones on Worms are OK and I think they were vintage. It's not a bad album because those are great songs, but Brian was not a great singer past 1974 and his band have the feel down but you can't recreate the magical family blend the Beach Boys had. Agree about Taylor's voice being in the wrong pitch. She's good on TLOS though.

[BiG GRiN]

"Only ONE track was ever completed for the album and that was Good Vibrations."


Once again, GOOD VIBRATIONS WAS NOT COMPLETED FOR THE SMiLE ALBUM but for being release as a single.
The song was used as a 'hook' and not intended to be part of the project.

[guitarfool2002]

I don't listen to BWPS because of the woman with the vibrato in her voice.

No one used vibrato on Beach Boys records, not Love, Jardine, Johnston, the Rovells or the Wilsons. Vibrato does belong on a Beach Boys related record. Dennis (I know, we're not talking about him...), for one said he hated vibrato.

Listen for one very prominent exception, and one of the most perfect single records (and lead vocals) Brian or anyone ever released..."Don't Worry Baby". At the end of every vocal phrase Brian does a nice vibrato, it actually makes his lead more compelling, IMO, than if he had done it without.

But as far as group and harmony vocals, what makes them what they are if we're talking classic 60's groups was the lack of vibrato. Vibrato is WAY overused in certain styles, opera excluded of course.

[MBE]

"Only ONE track was ever completed for the album and that was Good Vibrations."


Once again, GOOD VIBRATIONS WAS NOT COMPLETED FOR THE SMiLE ALBUM but for being release as a single.
The song was used as a 'hook' and not intended to be part of the project.

Perhaps but I'm not sold either way. Now it doesn't matter, and my fiancee for one lkes "Good Vibrations" more now as part of Smile. Actually the revised artwork and the radio add tells us that as soon as Good Vibrations was successful they already decided to use it. Perhaps they were encouraged, but still it only adds to the album and Brian didn't mind it on Smiley.

[runnersdialzero]

I don't listen to BWPS because of the woman with the vibrato in her voice.

No one used vibrato on Beach Boys records, not Love, Jardine, Johnston, the Rovells or the Wilsons. Vibrato does belong on a Beach Boys related record. Dennis (I know, we're not talking about him...), for one said he hated vibrato.

Uh, u legit? Brian used vibrato pretty often after the mid-60s, even more so after the voice change in '74. I want to say other members did, too.

[SBonilla]

I don't listen to BWPS because of the woman with the vibrato in her voice.

No one used vibrato on Beach Boys records, not Love, Jardine, Johnston, the Rovells or the Wilsons. Vibrato does belong on a Beach Boys related record. Dennis (I know, we're not talking about him...), for one said he hated vibrato.

Uh, u legit? Brian used vibrato pretty often after the mid-60s, even more so after the voice change in '74. I want to say other members did, too.

Legit? Sure. Vibrato is not one of the characteristics of the Beach Boys vocal sound. I'm not saying they didn't ever use it at all, but no instances of it come to mind. I'd be interested to know where you hear it being used.

[runnersdialzero]

No one used vibrato on Beach Boys records

I'm not saying they didn't ever use it at all

No one used vibrato on Beach Boys records

I'm not saying they didn't ever use it at all

No one used vibrato on Beach Boys records

I'm not saying they didn't ever use it at all

[Newguy562]

No one used vibrato on Beach Boys records

I'm not saying they didn't ever use it at all

No one used vibrato on Beach Boys records

I'm not saying they didn't ever use it at all

No one used vibrato on Beach Boys records

I'm not saying they didn't ever use it at all

LMFAOOOOOOOO 

[sidewinder572]

Smile is better than Pet Sounds.

Because Dennis Wilson said so.

[Chris Brown]

I think an important distinction needs to be made in this little vibrato discussion between lead vocals and backing vocals - Brian and Carl especially used vibrato quite frequently on their leads, as did the others (albeit less frequently - listen to "The Girl From New York City" to hear Mike very effectively using his). 

In contrast, they rarely, if ever, used vibrato when singing backing vocals, which was smart because every singer's vibrato is different, and when you have four or five guys singing together with slightly different vibrato sounds, the blend will suffer.  Naturally Brian wanted to avoid that.

[guitarfool2002]

I don't listen to BWPS because of the woman with the vibrato in her voice.

No one used vibrato on Beach Boys records, not Love, Jardine, Johnston, the Rovells or the Wilsons. Vibrato does belong on a Beach Boys related record. Dennis (I know, we're not talking about him...), for one said he hated vibrato.

Uh, u legit? Brian used vibrato pretty often after the mid-60s, even more so after the voice change in '74. I want to say other members did, too.

Legit? Sure. Vibrato is not one of the characteristics of the Beach Boys vocal sound. I'm not saying they didn't ever use it at all, but no instances of it come to mind. I'd be interested to know where you hear it being used.

Thanks for reading my post.

[Dr. Tim]

When Taylor Mills was with Brian's band, she tended not to sing the top harmonies, but parts in the middle.  She could turn off the vibrato for that.  Good singers can.  My evidence, among other things: the BWPS Our Prayer, and on side four of the vinyl, the stack-o-tracks version of H&V, you can hear she is singing the flatted seventh note in the chord.  No vibrato.  She did do her lounge singer on I Wanna Be Around, yes, and sings out a bit more on TLOS.

I  always thought adding her was a canny move.  For one thing, no one could accuse Brian of trying to market himself as a version of the Beach Boys.  The Surfside Sentient Beings, maybe.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

First of all, we all know Brian didn't finish SMiLE in 1967. However, I say all these:

Good Vibrations
Heroes and Villains
Vegatables
Surfs Up (71)
Cabinessence
Wind Chimes
Wonderful

Have very amazing sounds and sound very completed. No, they weren't all completely edited and recorded by Brian by 67. Surfs Up 71 is good enough to be a part of master piece. Brian added the tag of Surfs Up in 71, but it is legit because Brian did it. Van Dyke added lyrics in 2004, and it is legit because Van Dyke did it! The original artist completed the song! Who cares when and where? Why should we put a time limit on art?

The SMiLE sessions disc 1 sound like a master piece to my ears as is! I love it! I also respect the additions made by the original artists in 2004.