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Author Topic: Dada and Cool Cool Water (and water chant)  (Read 10764 times)
Bicyclerider
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« on: November 13, 2011, 04:00:47 PM »

Having just listened to the box set (yeah, I know I must be the last BB fan in the country to do so) I'm confused about Dada/All Day/Dada/Cool Cool Water/Water chant.  How do they all relate, or do they?

We have the first attempts at Dada with taped piano strings and Fender rhodes on 12/22/66.  What is this all about?  What song is it for?  This is just after the "list" with Brian desperately trying to get the album finished to deliver in January.  Why do this song?  Could this be the "unfinished piano piece" that he later described as Air?  Could it be an attempt at Water for The Elements?  Was it part of Heroes?

Then we have the 1/27 attempt where it appears to be at an all Heroes session and is shorter than what was attempted on 12/22 - like it was to be a short section of Heroes, only there's a second part to it he plays at the end.

Then we have the May sessions where it seems to be it's own song, with a part 1, part 2, and part 3 that breaks down.  Very important - the part 3 section sounds like a variation on "Child."

We move to June's Cool Cool Water - a sloppy version to be sure, but the chording is very similar to Dada - a rewrite, or a new song?  And finally Wild Honey's Oct take, which has a bridge that is the SAME as the part 3 version of the May Dada.  That certainly reinforces the links between Dada and Cool Cool Water.

Water chant - we now know NOT recorded for Smile.  This blew my mind.  It must have been intended all along for incorporation into Cool cool water.

I'd love to come up with a theory to explain the evolution of all this, but somehow it just seems beyond my grasp . . . any ideas?
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Roger Ryan
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« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2011, 04:07:20 PM »

The simplest explanation seems best: "Dada" is just a "feel" that Brian returned to a few times to see if he could develop it into a song (not a song specifically for SMiLE, mind you) that eventually formed the basis of "Cool, Cool Water" (finally completed in 1970 for SUNFLOWER). That the "Water Chant" wasn't recorded until Oct. '67 would pretty much eliminate it from being something planned for SMiLE.
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2011, 04:42:17 PM »

Yeah, it is actually pretty funny. When the "Cool Cool Water Chant" sessions came out on Unsurpassed Masters, Vol. 17 I had to adjust my head to make it "fit" into SMiLE (of course, before then it was solely a "Cool Cool Water" recording in my mind). I came to like it (love it) as an into to "Love to Say Dada" and having it included in Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE pretty much cemented it in my SMiLE thinking... but then... this Sessionography comes a long. Now I have to go back to my original thinking. LOL! Isn't SMiLE grand!?
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« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2011, 05:07:17 PM »

Anyone hear the similarity between Dada and Wind Chimes?  Could they both be variations of the same thing? 
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2011, 05:13:22 PM »

The simplest explanation seems best: "Dada" is just a "feel" that Brian returned to a few times to see if he could develop it into a song (not a song specifically for SMiLE, mind you) that eventually formed the basis of "Cool, Cool Water" (finally completed in 1970 for SUNFLOWER). That the "Water Chant" wasn't recorded until Oct. '67 would pretty much eliminate it from being something planned for SMiLE.

I think Roger hit it on the head.

I've always wondered what the heck David Anderle was referring to in that late '67 interview where he said "[Brian] made us aware of what fire was going to be, and what water was going to be. We had some idea of air. That was where it stopped." David had stopped hanging around Brian well before Smile ended, so Brian apparently had something in mind for "water" before Smile collapsed.

If the "wadoo" chant wasn't the water element, then what else would have fit the bill? My guess would be  DaDa as of Dec. 66, but that's just a guess. Then DaDa gets considered for H&V like almost everything else in early '67, before coming back into its own (and being developed further) by May. Like Roger says, it later forms the basis for Cool Cool Water. DaDa just evolved over time.
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« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2011, 05:25:27 PM »

Yeah, but it is hard to say whether elements (no pun intended) of that Cool Cool Water melody weren't always part of Love to Say Dada. After all, there were hardly any lead vocals put on the Smile songs post-November.

That being said, the title was fairly set in stone and it is interesting that it does reference Child is Father of the Man. I am reminded of that session on the box set when they figure out the horn part and Brian says,  "That's our baby!" as if it fits thematically with the song (and, well, the title is a pretty good tip off for that already). But the idea of a baby in Child and the title Love to Say Dada with a reference to Child seems to be quite an intriguing development.
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« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2011, 05:33:00 PM »

Yeah, but it is hard to say whether elements (no pun intended) of that Cool Cool Water melody weren't always part of Love to Say Dada. After all, there were hardly any lead vocals put on the Smile songs post-November.

That being said, the title was fairly set in stone and it is interesting that it does reference Child is Father of the Man. I am reminded of that session on the box set when they figure out the horn part and Brian says,  "That's our baby!" as if it fits thematically with the song (and, well, the title is a pretty good tip off for that already). But the idea of a baby in Child and the title Love to Say Dada with a reference to Child seems to be quite an intriguing development.

There's also the story that Marilyn (or was it Dianne?) relates in the box set book. She mentions Brian drinking from a baby bottle while composing Da Da.
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« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2012, 12:15:05 PM »

Having just listened to the box set (yeah, I know I must be the last BB fan in the country to do so) I'm confused about Dada/All Day/Dada/Cool Cool Water/Water chant.  How do they all relate, or do they?

We have the first attempts at Dada with taped piano strings and Fender rhodes on 12/22/66.  What is this all about?  What song is it for?  This is just after the "list" with Brian desperately trying to get the album finished to deliver in January.  Why do this song?  Could this be the "unfinished piano piece" that he later described as Air?  Could it be an attempt at Water for The Elements?  Was it part of Heroes?

Then we have the 1/27 attempt where it appears to be at an all Heroes session and is shorter than what was attempted on 12/22 - like it was to be a short section of Heroes, only there's a second part to it he plays at the end.

Then we have the May sessions where it seems to be it's own song, with a part 1, part 2, and part 3 that breaks down.  Very important - the part 3 section sounds like a variation on "Child."

We move to June's Cool Cool Water - a sloppy version to be sure, but the chording is very similar to Dada - a rewrite, or a new song?  And finally Wild Honey's Oct take, which has a bridge that is the SAME as the part 3 version of the May Dada.  That certainly reinforces the links between Dada and Cool Cool Water.

Water chant - we now know NOT recorded for Smile.  This blew my mind.  It must have been intended all along for incorporation into Cool cool water.

I'd love to come up with a theory to explain the evolution of all this, but somehow it just seems beyond my grasp . . . any ideas?

Sorry to resurrect this old topic, but has anyone had other thoughts about what Da Da was originally recorded for?  A lot of pieces started out as parts of H&V, and "All Day" apparently was recorded for H&V on 1/27.  But what about the 12/22 session?  There doesn't seem to be any indication that it was recorded for H&V or any other then-existing song.  The box set simply lists it as "Da Da session."
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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2012, 01:17:57 PM »

Having just listened to the box set (yeah, I know I must be the last BB fan in the country to do so) I'm confused about Dada/All Day/Dada/Cool Cool Water/Water chant.  How do they all relate, or do they?

We have the first attempts at Dada with taped piano strings and Fender rhodes on 12/22/66.  What is this all about?  What song is it for?  This is just after the "list" with Brian desperately trying to get the album finished to deliver in January.  Why do this song?  Could this be the "unfinished piano piece" that he later described as Air?  Could it be an attempt at Water for The Elements?  Was it part of Heroes?

Then we have the 1/27 attempt where it appears to be at an all Heroes session and is shorter than what was attempted on 12/22 - like it was to be a short section of Heroes, only there's a second part to it he plays at the end.

Then we have the May sessions where it seems to be it's own song, with a part 1, part 2, and part 3 that breaks down.  Very important - the part 3 section sounds like a variation on "Child."

We move to June's Cool Cool Water - a sloppy version to be sure, but the chording is very similar to Dada - a rewrite, or a new song?  And finally Wild Honey's Oct take, which has a bridge that is the SAME as the part 3 version of the May Dada.  That certainly reinforces the links between Dada and Cool Cool Water.

Water chant - we now know NOT recorded for Smile.  This blew my mind.  It must have been intended all along for incorporation into Cool cool water.

I'd love to come up with a theory to explain the evolution of all this, but somehow it just seems beyond my grasp . . . any ideas?

Sorry to resurrect this old topic, but has anyone had other thoughts about what Da Da was originally recorded for?  A lot of pieces started out as parts of H&V, and "All Day" apparently was recorded for H&V on 1/27.  But what about the 12/22 session?  There doesn't seem to be any indication that it was recorded for H&V or any other then-existing song.  The box set simply lists it as "Da Da session."


was there not a general consensus that Da Da was just another fragment of H&V that Brian worked on during Jan 1967, however since it was not being used he decided to expand it into a song on its own? Since this idea popped up after the sessions for Vegetables were over in April 67, when the project was already nearing collapse. This would imply that Dada was simply one of Brian's last meanderings in the Smile project and therefore the is no original intended water piece for Smile, meaning that the Elements concept never went beyong conception and never made any tape. As the memo sent to Capitol says, it leaves Vege and Wind Chimes out of elements, so Fire was the only section for Elements recorded. So Dada was as directionless as Tune X or any other funny thing he did after Jan 67
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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2012, 06:44:09 PM »

was there not a general consensus that Da Da was just another fragment of H&V that Brian worked on during Jan 1967, however since it was not being used he decided to expand it into a song on its own? Since this idea popped up after the sessions for Vegetables were over in April 67, when the project was already nearing collapse. This would imply that Dada was simply one of Brian's last meanderings in the Smile project and therefore the is no original intended water piece for Smile, meaning that the Elements concept never went beyong conception and never made any tape. As the memo sent to Capitol says, it leaves Vege and Wind Chimes out of elements, so Fire was the only section for Elements recorded. So Dada was as directionless as Tune X or any other funny thing he did after Jan 67

I think most or all of what you say is true, but I'm still unclear as to what Da Da was in December (that is, was it part of another track, or maybe an independent idea like Speeches or Tune X).  That seems like the best guess right now, since nothing connects the December Da Da to anything else.
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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2012, 06:52:07 PM »

The simplest explanation seems best: Nobody has any Gosh Darn idea what was intended for what when it comes to these pieces except the ever-so-quiet Brian (barring him having forgotten it)and maybe Van Dyke Parks. We'll never know and speculation on the matter doesn't really help.
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« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2012, 10:06:08 PM »

I point-blank asked Brian on his message board once during a chat, "Brian, which songs were Water, Fire, Earth, and Air?" and he just made up some bullshit answer.  It was awesome.  So the 2005 version of Brian told me things like Surf's Up was Fire, and that Vegetables was water, etc.  I can't remember which ones he said were what, but the way he said it so matter of factly was awesome. 

I took it more as Brian thoght it was funny that anybody would obsess so much over it, than he didn't know.  Sort of like if somebody asked the Dhali Lama the meaning of life, and he told them it was to drive a cadillac. 

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« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2012, 12:59:14 AM »

I point-blank asked Brian on his message board once during a chat, "Brian, which songs were Water, Fire, Earth, and Air?" and he just made up some bullsh*t answer.  It was awesome.  So the 2005 version of Brian told me things like Surf's Up was Fire, and that Vegetables was water, etc.  I can't remember which ones he said were what, but the way he said it so matter of factly was awesome. 

I took it more as Brian thoght it was funny that anybody would obsess so much over it, than he didn't know.  Sort of like if somebody asked the Dhali Lama the meaning of life, and he told them it was to drive a cadillac. 

"Fire is Mrs O'Leary's Cow, Water, is Surf's up and air is Our Prayer and Earth is H&V. L&M Brian"

(Google is an amazing thing).
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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2012, 09:38:08 PM »

The simplest explanation seems best: Nobody has any Gosh Darn idea what was intended for what when it comes to these pieces except the ever-so-quiet Brian (barring him having forgotten it)and maybe Van Dyke Parks. We'll never know and speculation on the matter doesn't really help.

That sounds about right - I'm not convinced it was necessarily "intended" for anything, probably just another feel that Brian wanted to work on to see where it would lead.  As another poster mentioned, it didn't take long for him to try fitting it into Heroes, but given how radically his approach to the album shifted in January, that isn't overly surprising.

The biggest mystery to me hasn't been where DaDa fits in the overall picture as much as why he randomly decided to work on it in May, after it was obvious that Smile (as he originally intended) wasn't going to happen.  Of all things to go back and work on, why DaDa?
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« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2012, 12:48:08 AM »

I don't think Brian ever really gave up on Smile. You can file it away, but you can't stop it from evolving and changing and coming back to you - see the Wild Honey take of "Surf's Up". Just Brian trying out his new piano, but even after the demise of Smile, we see he's changed the key, altered the melody, and added a key change ending.

So yeah. Even around the official cut-off date, I don't think whatever force in his mind that was behind Smile could just be stopped outright. Also, it wouldn't shock me if Brian was thinking, even for just a few days (including the days that "Dada" was recorded), that he could officially announce that Smile wasn't happening, put out another record, and continue to work on its fragments and such for as long as he needed without having Capitol breathe down his neck over it as they had been doing.
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« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2012, 01:40:02 AM »

As the memo sent to Capitol says, it leaves Vege and Wind Chimes out of elements

Side remark: The booklet however leaves Vega-Tables as part of The Elements. I don't give much importance to this memo. We don't know who wrote it or how it came together at all. And SMiLE evolved after that for months before it was shelved, apparently without the back cover ever having been finalised.
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« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2012, 03:46:29 AM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJvUaGnB_Eg&t=1m15s

Another question about Roll-Around Heaven, the bonus track from That Lucky Old Sun:

When was it written, the chords are at least partly similar to Cool, Cool Water and it has the lyrics "All day"
anyone? it would be nice to have some info, or if it's related to SMiLE etc...
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« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2012, 10:29:11 AM »

I point-blank asked Brian on his message board once during a chat, "Brian, which songs were Water, Fire, Earth, and Air?" and he just made up some bullsh*t answer.  It was awesome.  So the 2005 version of Brian told me things like Surf's Up was Fire, and that Vegetables was water, etc.  I can't remember which ones he said were what, but the way he said it so matter of factly was awesome. 

I took it more as Brian thoght it was funny that anybody would obsess so much over it, than he didn't know.  Sort of like if somebody asked the Dhali Lama the meaning of life, and he told them it was to drive a cadillac. 

"Fire is Mrs O'Leary's Cow, Water, is Surf's up and air is Our Prayer and Earth is H&V. L&M Brian"

(Google is an amazing thing).

I googled that and I found this:


    < NEW IMPROVED FULLDIMENSIONAL STEREO > 
 ┏┫┏┳┓┳┃  ┳┓┏┏┓┏┓┃┃┳┏┓  ┳┓┏┫  ┃┳┫
 ┗┓┃┃┃┃┃  ┣┫┣┣┫┃  ┣┫┃┣ ━ ┣┫┃┣┳┛┗┓
 ┣┛┻  ┻┻┻  ┻┛┻┛┻┻┻┛┗┻┻┛  ┻┛┗┛┻  ┣┛
    Good Vibrations Good Vibrations Good Vibrations (Capital)
     ┌──────────────────────┐
     ├─::_:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::.:::─┤
     ├’\∀/\∀/\∀/\∀/\∀/\∀/\∀/’┤
     ├─┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴┴─┤
     ├┬;;;;;;::::::;;;;::;;::::;::;/ ||||||||||||||||||||||||\ .;:::;;::::;::::::::::::::;;;::;:┬┤
     ├┤|三三三三三/ .:||┌──┐||\_.三三三三三三|├┤
     ├┤|─┐::.:   |   ||│   │|| .::.|──┐ ..:: :::::|├┤
     ├┤|∀ |.∧∧  |  ...:||├----┤|| .....|. ∀ ∧ ∧.: ::|├┤
     ├┤| ̄:..( ^皿^) | . .:||└-┼-┘|| ...::|──.(゚ー゚*) :::|├┤
     ├┤|:::.:::.:| U U│:|  . || | ○ | ||  ..|  :⊂|.. c ).:.:|├┤
     ├┤|┰┰┰┰┰|┰ソ||-OPEN¢||ヽ┰|┰┰┰┰┰-|├┤
     ├┤|Å旦●□☆|△∀||/ ̄ ̄\||^^)|│││││ ||├┤
     ├┤|(´∀`)´∀`)|:)/|| +++. ||∀`)|△Å◎∀)∞|├┤
     ├┤|(・∀・)(゜∀゜|/| || +++. ||\∀|∀)(´∀`)||;ゝ|├┤
     ├┤三三三三三/∥├───-┤\三三三三三三 |├┤
     ├┤||||||||||||||||||||//".:":"".゙"""."'\ ||||||||||||||||||||||||├┤
     ├┤|||||||||||||||||||/ .. 、  :   '  \.||||||||||||||||||||||├┤
     ┗━━━━━━ ”`"`".:":"".゙"""."'"`、━━━━━━━┛
   "`".゚゙゚゙゚゚“”゙゙゙”゙゚゙゚゚“”゙゙゙”:":"".゙"""."'"`".:":"".゙"゚゙゚゚“”゙゙゙”.゙゚゙゚゚“”゙゙゙”"'"`
  ────  I N  S T O R E S  N O W !! ───
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« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2012, 10:37:20 AM »

As the memo sent to Capitol says, it leaves Vege and Wind Chimes out of elements

Side remark: The booklet however leaves Vega-Tables as part of The Elements. I don't give much importance to this memo. We don't know who wrote it or how it came together at all. And SMiLE evolved after that for months before it was shelved, apparently without the back cover ever having been finalised.

But the illustration in the booklet could very well be just Holmes drawing together various "elements" of the project as a whole.

Mrs. O'Leary's Cow was always referred to as one of The Elements, both in the recording studio and on tape boxes. Vega-Tables was NEVER referred to as such in any official way. In that sense, I think the Memo reflects the reality of Vega-Tables more than Holmes's artwork does.
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« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2012, 10:49:33 AM »

I point-blank asked Brian on his message board once during a chat, "Brian, which songs were Water, Fire, Earth, and Air?" and he just made up some bullsh*t answer.  It was awesome.  So the 2005 version of Brian told me things like Surf's Up was Fire, and that Vegetables was water, etc.  I can't remember which ones he said were what, but the way he said it so matter of factly was awesome. 

I took it more as Brian thoght it was funny that anybody would obsess so much over it, than he didn't know.  Sort of like if somebody asked the Dhali Lama the meaning of life, and he told them it was to drive a cadillac. 

"Fire is Mrs O'Leary's Cow, Water, is Surf's up and air is Our Prayer and Earth is H&V. L&M Brian"

(Google is an amazing thing).

I remember when he said that.

Maybe he was serious.


Quote
well, I guess Smile fandom is all about taking offhand remarks and grossly exaggerating them.


Whoops.
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« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2012, 10:51:24 AM »


But the illustration in the booklet could very well be just Holmes drawing together various "elements" of the project as a whole.

Mrs. O'Leary's Cow was always referred to as one of The Elements, both in the recording studio and on tape boxes. Vega-Tables was NEVER referred to as such in any official way. In that sense, I think the Memo reflects the reality of Vega-Tables more than Holmes's artwork does.

But the tape of Brian and his friends messing around focused on a) chants about vegetables b) chants about water and c) chants about breathing air. The only thing it lacks is a recording of Mike Vosse playing with matches.

I think Vegetables was at least originally conceived as an element, even if such plans fell through.
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« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2012, 10:57:43 AM »


But the illustration in the booklet could very well be just Holmes drawing together various "elements" of the project as a whole.

Mrs. O'Leary's Cow was always referred to as one of The Elements, both in the recording studio and on tape boxes. Vega-Tables was NEVER referred to as such in any official way. In that sense, I think the Memo reflects the reality of Vega-Tables more than Holmes's artwork does.

But the tape of Brian and his friends messing around focused on a) chants about vegetables b) chants about water and c) chants about breathing air. The only thing it lacks is a recording of Mike Vosse playing with matches.

I think Vegetables was at least originally conceived as an element, even if such plans fell through.

I guess so. Maybe I just don't want to believe it.
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« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2012, 11:07:28 AM »

  Mike Vosse playing with matches. 

I wish.
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« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2012, 08:07:50 PM »


But the illustration in the booklet could very well be just Holmes drawing together various "elements" of the project as a whole.

Mrs. O'Leary's Cow was always referred to as one of The Elements, both in the recording studio and on tape boxes. Vega-Tables was NEVER referred to as such in any official way. In that sense, I think the Memo reflects the reality of Vega-Tables more than Holmes's artwork does.

But the tape of Brian and his friends messing around focused on a) chants about vegetables b) chants about water and c) chants about breathing air. The only thing it lacks is a recording of Mike Vosse playing with matches.

I think Vegetables was at least originally conceived as an element, even if such plans fell through.

Exactly.  I'm surprised no one has asked Frank Holmes about that specific attribution of Vegetables to the Elements in the booklet, but it seems highly unlikely Frank would have presumed to do that on his own.  He therefor got it from either Brian or Van.  And it must refer to the early "demo" cornucopia version which was recorded October/November 67.  It appears already to be out of Elements by the December list.

There was a January deadline for Smile which definitely spurred Brian's recording in December, even though by dec 22 he surely realized the January deadline wasn't going to happen.  While it's listed as "Dada session" in the Smile box book,  it's not clear what was on the tape box - I suspect nothing, or that the Dada session was found at the end of a reel for another song.  But if he was trying to finish the album for a pressing deadline I doubt he would be just fooling around with a new idea (yes I know this is unpredictable impulsive Brian we're talking about).  If it was to be part of a song, the Elements, obviously unfinished at this point, and of course Heroes are the most likely candidates, and it seems with All Day it was in consideration for Heroes.  Another possibility considering Marilyn's story - it may have been part of Child?
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« Reply #24 on: August 11, 2012, 04:14:10 AM »

"Fire is Mrs O'Leary's Cow, Water, is Surf's up and air is Our Prayer and Earth is H&V. L&M Brian"
Why are people still obsessing over this? You got it right here. Straight from the horse's mouth.
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