Dada and Cool Cool Water (and water chant)

[runnersdialzero]

"Fire is Mrs O'Leary's Cow, Water, is Surf's up and air is Our Prayer and Earth is H&V. L&M Brian"

Why are people still obsessing over this? You got it right here. Straight from the horse's mouth.

lawl. Sarcasm, hopefully?

[puni puni]

What, so that wasn't a Brian quote?

[runnersdialzero]

What, so that wasn't a Brian quote?

Brian is absolutely notorious (generally in an amusing way) for rattling off simple, short answers in interviews over the last couple decades, often times contradicting something he said prior or saying things that are obviously not true. For fans to speculate for years and years (and f***ing years) about what the sections of the elements were and for Brian to never answer but a) Suddenly answer the question so bluntly and simply in an online chat (and he very likely was not the one typing - the guy is known to be computer inept) and b) To contradict his choices for the elements on Brian Wilson Presents Smile a year earlier would be totally absurd.

In other words, you can probably go ahead and file this under said simple, short, and inaccurate answers file. If the answer were really so simple as what Brian said, I'm not sure why it would have taken nearly fourty years to come to light and be presented inaccurately on both Brian Wilson Presents Smile and The Smile Sessions.

The answer to "What songs are involved in the elements" is generally accepted as: No one knows, the suite was far from complete and likely involve pieces of music that were never written and/or recorded or, less likely, pieces we have but are not aware were actually elements sections. The only 100% confirmed elements piece is "Fire" - the 2nd part of "Mrs.O'Leary's Cow" if you're listening to Brian Wilson Presents Smile.

[puni puni]

I'm more inclined to read what Brian has to say about the elements suite than some nerds on a forum.

If he says Our Prayer is Air, then by god, Air is Our Prairie.

[runnersdialzero]

I'm more inclined to read what Brian has to say about the elements suite than some nerds on a forum.

If he says Our Prayer is Air, then by god, Air is Our Prairie.

Okey doke.

[Reddiwhip]

I'm more inclined to read what Brian has to say about the elements suite than some nerds on a forum.

If he says Our Prayer is Air, then by god, Air is Our Prairie.

Which Brian are we talking about?  Brian in 1967, Brian in 1976, Brian in 1988, 1993, 1999 or 2004?  He's contradicted himself so many times ("I burned the tapes" "Of course I didn't burn the tapes"), I wouldn't even trust his own word on it from about 1972 to 2004.  Despite popular belief, Brian is not an unchanging god.

[Jeff]

Sometimes people just want easy answers, regardless of accuracy.

[Dunderhead]

I feel more and more strongly that "The Elements" was never really a thing. Smile may have had an elemental theme, but I'm seriously starting to doubt that there was ever going to be an explicit Elements Suite.

Brian seemed to record everything using the modular technique, even if there was no reason for him to do so. Cabinessence for example, was recorded in a single session, but Brian still recorded everything in separate takes.
He never really developed a consistent system for naming the different sections, but throughout 1966 he referred to things as "part 1", "part 2", "part 3" etc. For Brian "part 2" did not necessarily mean a second unique song, but the chorus of the same song. "Part 3" was the bridge, and "part 4" the fade. Of course the parts changed between different sessions, and there's no guarantee that the final song would have used part 2 as a chorus. At the end of the day though, I think the box set gives us plenty of reasons to question the whole "part 2" = separate track idea.

"The Elements: Part 1" doesn't really imply anything about the existence of an Elements Suite. Part 2 might have very likely been the pickup, the "blowing out" part. Given the two possibilities, I think we have to err with the one better supported by the facts. Given Brian's use of the "part x" in the labelling of other songs, I feel as if there is good reason to doubt the existence of fully formed suite.

In my view there's also a defensible point to be made that the ending of Fire is Air. Brian makes a big deal during the sessions that the drums need to "blow out" the basses. There's no strong evidence to support that, but as far as speculation goes, it seems just as valid as many of the other claims usually tossed around.

At the very least we can get a sense of how Brian conceptualized the different elements orchestrally. Like many composers he associated certain instruments with certain ideas or themes within his music. A perfect example is the harpsichord, which is so often used a symbol of innocence and childhood on Brian's recordings, When I Grow Up To Be A Man, You Still Believe In Me, and Wonderful are all clear demonstrations of that connection. On this particular track at least it appears that the basses were being associated with the fire, and the drums were being associated with the wind or the air.
I don't mean to be pedantic about this, I'm not saying that this applies universally to all the SMiLE music, or that every time a bass is heard on a Brian Wilson track it represents fire. It's just an idea that may be useful in understanding "The Elements" specifically.

In point of fact fire doesn't just happen in a vacuum. A fire needs oxygen and fuel, and it may very well be the case that "The Elements" already contains all four elements within itself. The violins, violas, and cellos could have been the fuel for example, the collapsing wooden buildings and barns destroyed by the fire.


My point in all this is not to say "This is what The Elements was, I know better than everyone else". I just wanted to raise some questions in order challenge the long-held belief that there would have been an explicit four part Elements suite.

[mike s]

hi Fishmonk - there are multiple reports from the time of a 4-part Elemnts suite - just have a look through LLVS

[Micha]

As the memo sent to Capitol says, it leaves Vege and Wind Chimes out of elements

Side remark: The booklet however leaves Vega-Tables as part of The Elements. I don't give much importance to this memo. We don't know who wrote it or how it came together at all. And SMiLE evolved after that for months before it was shelved, apparently without the back cover ever having been finalised.

But the illustration in the booklet could very well be just Holmes drawing together various "elements" of the project as a whole.

Mrs. O'Leary's Cow was always referred to as one of The Elements, both in the recording studio and on tape boxes. Vega-Tables was NEVER referred to as such in any official way. In that sense, I think the Memo reflects the reality of Vega-Tables more than Holmes's artwork does.

I'm not talking about the illustration at all. Look what is printed underneath: It quotes the lyric "My Vega-Tables" from a song called "The Elements". That is proof that Vega-Tables was originally considered part of The Elements, and what's more, VDP said the only part of The Elements that he worked on was Vega-Tables. I can't tell if Vega-Tables was later taken out of The Elements to be replaced by another composition, of if Vega-Tables only became a song of its own when The Elements was scrapped altogether.

The list, I doubt its significance. I'd say it was just thrown together on the spot, as the crossed out brackets prove. Shall we really put The Old Master Painter on there? Put it in brackets. No, it's OK, cross out the brackets. Just give them something so they see we're working.

[Dunderhead]

hi Fishmonk - there are multiple reports from the time of a 4-part Elemnts suite - just have a look through LLVS

Don't have that book, but I have read some of the interviews it probably contains. I think Vosse and Anderle both talk about a "suite", but they have no clue when it comes to any of the particulars.
People have been extrapolating the existence of a whole suite for years, it's really taken for granted at this point that such a plan existed to begin with. That assumption just seems to be less and less grounded the more I've thought about it.

Like Carol Kaye's insistence that Friday Night is "part 2" of The Elements, the comments of Vosse or Anderle are not exactly definitive proof of anything. They suggest the possibility, but in all honesty I think it's more than possible they were just misremembering a conversation in the same way that Carol Kaye did.

[Reddiwhip]

As the memo sent to Capitol says, it leaves Vege and Wind Chimes out of elements

Side remark: The booklet however leaves Vega-Tables as part of The Elements. I don't give much importance to this memo. We don't know who wrote it or how it came together at all. And SMiLE evolved after that for months before it was shelved, apparently without the back cover ever having been finalised.

But the illustration in the booklet could very well be just Holmes drawing together various "elements" of the project as a whole.

Mrs. O'Leary's Cow was always referred to as one of The Elements, both in the recording studio and on tape boxes. Vega-Tables was NEVER referred to as such in any official way. In that sense, I think the Memo reflects the reality of Vega-Tables more than Holmes's artwork does.

I'm not talking about the illustration at all. Look what is printed underneath: It quotes the lyric "My Vega-Tables" from a song called "The Elements". That is proof that Vega-Tables was originally considered part of The Elements, and what's more, VDP said the only part of The Elements that he worked on was Vega-Tables. I can't tell if Vega-Tables was later taken out of The Elements to be replaced by another composition, of if Vega-Tables only became a song of its own when The Elements was scrapped altogether.

The list, I doubt its significance. I'd say it was just thrown together on the spot, as the crossed out brackets prove. Shall we really put The Old Master Painter on there? Put it in brackets. No, it's OK, cross out the brackets. Just give them something so they see we're working.

How about this for an Elemental "Suite"?  You start with Wind Chimes, like the Santa Ana's blowing gently and then big through the canyons.  You then have the fire caused by the high winds, with all that entails.  In the middle of the fire (at least on TSS version) you have the vocals floating eerily over the giant whine of the orchestra.  This could represent the water, as there is a whole blog post you could write about vocals equating with the water element.  After the fire has been put out, what starts to grow out of the parched ground, now renewed?  Vega-Tables.  It's been suggested before, but I think it's valid considering VDP quotes, Frank Holmes' drawings, and if you listen close enough, you get your own little workshop sounds at the beginning of Vega-Tables that fits very nicely with rebuilding after the fire.  Nature's destruction and creation all in one go.

[puni puni]

Which Brian are we talking about?

I'm talking about the Brian Wilson from The Beach Boys, not the SF Giants.

[Reddiwhip]

Which Brian are we talking about?

I'm talking about the Brian Wilson from The Beach Boys, not the SF Giants.

 

[Chocolate Shake Man]

As the memo sent to Capitol says, it leaves Vege and Wind Chimes out of elements

Side remark: The booklet however leaves Vega-Tables as part of The Elements. I don't give much importance to this memo. We don't know who wrote it or how it came together at all. And SMiLE evolved after that for months before it was shelved, apparently without the back cover ever having been finalised.

But the illustration in the booklet could very well be just Holmes drawing together various "elements" of the project as a whole.

Mrs. O'Leary's Cow was always referred to as one of The Elements, both in the recording studio and on tape boxes. Vega-Tables was NEVER referred to as such in any official way. In that sense, I think the Memo reflects the reality of Vega-Tables more than Holmes's artwork does.

I'm not talking about the illustration at all. Look what is printed underneath: It quotes the lyric "My Vega-Tables" from a song called "The Elements". That is proof that Vega-Tables was originally considered part of The Elements, and what's more, VDP said the only part of The Elements that he worked on was Vega-Tables. I can't tell if Vega-Tables was later taken out of The Elements to be replaced by another composition, of if Vega-Tables only became a song of its own when The Elements was scrapped altogether.

The list, I doubt its significance. I'd say it was just thrown together on the spot, as the crossed out brackets prove. Shall we really put The Old Master Painter on there? Put it in brackets. No, it's OK, cross out the brackets. Just give them something so they see we're working.

How about this for an Elemental "Suite"?  You start with Wind Chimes, like the Santa Ana's blowing gently and then big through the canyons.  You then have the fire caused by the high winds, with all that entails.  In the middle of the fire (at least on TSS version) you have the vocals floating eerily over the giant whine of the orchestra.  This could represent the water, as there is a whole blog post you could write about vocals equating with the water element.  After the fire has been put out, what starts to grow out of the parched ground, now renewed?  Vega-Tables.  It's been suggested before, but I think it's valid considering VDP quotes, Frank Holmes' drawings, and if you listen close enough, you get your own little workshop sounds at the beginning of Vega-Tables that fits very nicely with rebuilding after the fire.  Nature's destruction and creation all in one go.

Yes, that's a frequent description of The Elements. I don't particularly see Wind Chimes being part of that project, but who knows.

[I. Spaceman]

As the memo sent to Capitol says, it leaves Vege and Wind Chimes out of elements

Side remark: The booklet however leaves Vega-Tables as part of The Elements. I don't give much importance to this memo. We don't know who wrote it or how it came together at all. And SMiLE evolved after that for months before it was shelved, apparently without the back cover ever having been finalised.

But the illustration in the booklet could very well be just Holmes drawing together various "elements" of the project as a whole.

Mrs. O'Leary's Cow was always referred to as one of The Elements, both in the recording studio and on tape boxes. Vega-Tables was NEVER referred to as such in any official way. In that sense, I think the Memo reflects the reality of Vega-Tables more than Holmes's artwork does.

I'm not talking about the illustration at all. Look what is printed underneath: It quotes the lyric "My Vega-Tables" from a song called "The Elements". That is proof that Vega-Tables was originally considered part of The Elements, and what's more, VDP said the only part of The Elements that he worked on was Vega-Tables. I can't tell if Vega-Tables was later taken out of The Elements to be replaced by another composition, of if Vega-Tables only became a song of its own when The Elements was scrapped altogether.

The list, I doubt its significance. I'd say it was just thrown together on the spot, as the crossed out brackets prove. Shall we really put The Old Master Painter on there? Put it in brackets. No, it's OK, cross out the brackets. Just give them something so they see we're working.

How about this for an Elemental "Suite"?  You start with Wind Chimes, like the Santa Ana's blowing gently and then big through the canyons.  You then have the fire caused by the high winds, with all that entails.  In the middle of the fire (at least on TSS version) you have the vocals floating eerily over the giant whine of the orchestra.  This could represent the water, as there is a whole blog post you could write about vocals equating with the water element.  After the fire has been put out, what starts to grow out of the parched ground, now renewed?  Vega-Tables.  It's been suggested before, but I think it's valid considering VDP quotes, Frank Holmes' drawings, and if you listen close enough, you get your own little workshop sounds at the beginning of Vega-Tables that fits very nicely with rebuilding after the fire.  Nature's destruction and creation all in one go.

Yeah, that's what Dominic Priore thought. Considering we have no real idea what the suite was besides Fire, it is as good a way to complete the thought as any. But there is no way The Elements would have been listed as a separate track, if Vegetables and Wind Chimes (also listed as separate tracks) were to be a part of it.

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT:

Don't miss all the CCW fun over at my thread . . .

Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
« Reply #1120 on: Monday, August 13, 2012, 04:13:19 PM »

~swd

[Bicyclerider]

hi Fishmonk - there are multiple reports from the time of a 4-part Elemnts suite - just have a look through LLVS

Don't have that book, but I have read some of the interviews it probably contains. I think Vosse and Anderle both talk about a "suite", but they have no clue when it comes to any of the particulars.
People have been extrapolating the existence of a whole suite for years, it's really taken for granted at this point that such a plan existed to begin with. That assumption just seems to be less and less grounded the more I've thought about it.

Like Carol Kaye's insistence that Friday Night is "part 2" of The Elements, the comments of Vosse or Anderle are not exactly definitive proof of anything. They suggest the possibility, but in all honesty I think it's more than possible they were just misremembering a conversation in the same way that Carol Kaye did.

Strongly disagree that anyone has been extrapolating or taking for granted that there was a plan for a four part suite.  Contemporary articles as late as April 67 (in LLVS) mention Brian was working on an Elements suite with earth, air, fire, water.  Do you think the journalists at the time were assuming this existed?  The idea of the suite came from Brian.  It was definitely planned as part of Smile.

What FORM the suite would have taken and how far along it was are the unresolved issues.  Maybe "the Elements" track on the album would have been only Fire, and the other Elements would be their own songs/ tracks arranged in a four song suite.  Vegetables might have been in the planned suite, then out, and never replaced by anything.  Maybe he never worked on air or earth or water.  We're left with a lot of speculation, but not if there was ever a plan for an Elements suite.

[guitarfool2002]

Remember that in the book "The Love You Make" by Peter Brown and Steven Gaines, they have a specific footnote on the page describing McCartney's visit to LA and the ensuing meeting at the studio as Brian was recording part of Vegetables, where it says Brian was working on a "Four Elements Suite".

This was early 80's, putting it into a context where the free-flowing nature of Smile factoids and inside tidbits didn't exist outside a much smaller group of fans...which means an author couldn't Google such a thing and then write that Brian was working on "The Four Elements Suite" in an attempt to be factual without having heard that information from someone who was either there or was close to someone who was there.

I guess the main point is that the notion of a "Four Elements Suite" unlike other Smile mythology didn't appear out of nowhere and it's a notion which has been written about for decades.

The main problem, yet again, would appear to be Brian's lack of knowing what such a Suite would be from one burst of creativity to the next burst of writer's block. It never fully developed into what I think Brian at certain points had envisioned.

And I always felt the 2003-04 revisiting/reworking of "The Elements" was a compromise...a simply terrific compromise, but not involving all of those sounds and ideas like the rhythmic chants and improvisations that we can hear on tapes from late '66. You can use the ingredients you have in your kitchen to cook up a terrific meal, but that doesn't mean you couldn't have made an even better meal after a trip to the grocery store to buy what you really wanted to use for the meal..

[Will C.]

COMMENT:

Don't miss all the CCW fun over at my thread . . .

Re: The Stephen Desper Thread
« Reply #1120 on: Monday, August 13, 2012, 04:13:19 PM »

~swd

Just a friendly reminder for those who may have missed Mr. Desper's comment here earlier!

[mike s]

hi - no its definitely referenced multiple times in articles from 66/67,  a 4 part suite consisting of the 4 distinct elements

hi Fishmonk - there are multiple reports from the time of a 4-part Elemnts suite - just have a look through LLVS

Don't have that book, but I have read some of the interviews it probably contains. I think Vosse and Anderle both talk about a "suite", but they have no clue when it comes to any of the particulars.
People have been extrapolating the existence of a whole suite for years, it's really taken for granted at this point that such a plan existed to begin with. That assumption just seems to be less and less grounded the more I've thought about it.

Like Carol Kaye's insistence that Friday Night is "part 2" of The Elements, the comments of Vosse or Anderle are not exactly definitive proof of anything. They suggest the possibility, but in all honesty I think it's more than possible they were just misremembering a conversation in the same way that Carol Kaye did.

[The Demon]

hi - no its definitely referenced multiple times in articles from 66/67,  a 4 part suite consisting of the 4 distinct elements

hi Fishmonk - there are multiple reports from the time of a 4-part Elemnts suite - just have a look through LLVS

Don't have that book, but I have read some of the interviews it probably contains. I think Vosse and Anderle both talk about a "suite", but they have no clue when it comes to any of the particulars.
People have been extrapolating the existence of a whole suite for years, it's really taken for granted at this point that such a plan existed to begin with. That assumption just seems to be less and less grounded the more I've thought about it.

Like Carol Kaye's insistence that Friday Night is "part 2" of The Elements, the comments of Vosse or Anderle are not exactly definitive proof of anything. They suggest the possibility, but in all honesty I think it's more than possible they were just misremembering a conversation in the same way that Carol Kaye did.

Yep.  And not that Brian's always trustworthy, but around the time of the TSS release I believe he also said the suite was VDP's idea.

[Dunderhead]

hi - no its definitely referenced multiple times in articles from 66/67,  a 4 part suite consisting of the 4 distinct elements

hi Fishmonk - there are multiple reports from the time of a 4-part Elemnts suite - just have a look through LLVS

Don't have that book, but I have read some of the interviews it probably contains. I think Vosse and Anderle both talk about a "suite", but they have no clue when it comes to any of the particulars.
People have been extrapolating the existence of a whole suite for years, it's really taken for granted at this point that such a plan existed to begin with. That assumption just seems to be less and less grounded the more I've thought about it.

Like Carol Kaye's insistence that Friday Night is "part 2" of The Elements, the comments of Vosse or Anderle are not exactly definitive proof of anything. They suggest the possibility, but in all honesty I think it's more than possible they were just misremembering a conversation in the same way that Carol Kaye did.

I really wish I had a copy of that book.

[Reddiwhip]

hi - no its definitely referenced multiple times in articles from 66/67,  a 4 part suite consisting of the 4 distinct elements

hi Fishmonk - there are multiple reports from the time of a 4-part Elemnts suite - just have a look through LLVS

Don't have that book, but I have read some of the interviews it probably contains. I think Vosse and Anderle both talk about a "suite", but they have no clue when it comes to any of the particulars.
People have been extrapolating the existence of a whole suite for years, it's really taken for granted at this point that such a plan existed to begin with. That assumption just seems to be less and less grounded the more I've thought about it.

Like Carol Kaye's insistence that Friday Night is "part 2" of The Elements, the comments of Vosse or Anderle are not exactly definitive proof of anything. They suggest the possibility, but in all honesty I think it's more than possible they were just misremembering a conversation in the same way that Carol Kaye did.

I really wish I had a copy of that book.

It's a must have