The REAL reason Brian abandoned SMiLE?

[Bicyclerider]

My impression is Carl starting doubting the SMile project when he saw Brian scheduling endless sessions to work on bits and pieces of songs with nothing getting finished.  Carl was in on a lot of the sessions and could see Brian's inability to finish anything.  I'm sceptical that he "hated" it, but he saw the project circling the drain and probably agreed with pulling the plug.

[Emdeeh]

Bicyclerider, that's a much more plausable theory. I just don't think that Carl hated Smile.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Some very interesting points here that I hadn't considered:

1-The idea that Carl also hated Smile.

I doubt that theory -- seriously, seriously doubt it.

Hate may be too strong a word. Disapproved, maybe?

[pixletwin]

Whether they liked it or hated it, each Beach Boys would have ultimately done anything Brian asked them to do.

Brian shelved smile because he was overwhelmed by everything going on at the time (not just recording but also legal headaches with Capital and a mariad of other reasons) and his mental health was precarious at best to deal with it all.

[Emdeeh]

Hate may be too strong a word. Disapproved, maybe?

Nope, not even disapproved. Carl made a finished version of "Surf's Up," after all, and put Smile tracks on subsequent BB albums. That strongly suggests to me that he liked the music.

[pixletwin]

Hate may be too strong a word. Disapproved, maybe?

Nope, not even disapproved. Carl made a finished version of "Surf's Up," after all, and put Smile tracks on subsequent BB albums. That strongly suggests to me that he liked the music.

Agreed. I think it was more a case of "what do we do with these songs?" rather than dislike.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Hate may be too strong a word. Disapproved, maybe?

Nope, not even disapproved. Carl made a finished version of "Surf's Up," after all, and put Smile tracks on subsequent BB albums. That strongly suggests to me that he liked the music.

Perhaps he liked some tracks but not others? Or took awhile to warm up to it?

[drbeachboy]

Hate may be too strong a word. Disapproved, maybe?

Nope, not even disapproved. Carl made a finished version of "Surf's Up," after all, and put Smile tracks on subsequent BB albums. That strongly suggests to me that he liked the music.

Perhaps he liked some tracks but not others? Or took awhile to warm up to it?

Please think about what is being said here. Also, they did release Smiley Smile. How could the band have released Smiley if they did not like Smile? If you take the Smiley version of the songs, plus the all that was released on subsequent albums through Surf's Up, they must have really liked the music that Brian created for Smile.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Hate may be too strong a word. Disapproved, maybe?

Nope, not even disapproved. Carl made a finished version of "Surf's Up," after all, and put Smile tracks on subsequent BB albums. That strongly suggests to me that he liked the music.

Perhaps he liked some tracks but not others? Or took awhile to warm up to it?

Please think about what is being said here. Also, they did release Smiley Smile. How could the band have released Smiley if they did not like Smile? If you take the Smiley version of the songs, plus the all that was released on subsequent albums through Surf's Up, they must have really liked the music that Brian created for Smile.

Just because Smiley was released doesnt mean the boys loved it or SMiLE. You're saying my assumptions/speculation is wrong based on your own assumptions/speculation. Truth is, nobody can claim the high ground here, it's all educated guesswork.

[drbeachboy]

Hate may be too strong a word. Disapproved, maybe?

Nope, not even disapproved. Carl made a finished version of "Surf's Up," after all, and put Smile tracks on subsequent BB albums. That strongly suggests to me that he liked the music.

Perhaps he liked some tracks but not others? Or took awhile to warm up to it?

Please think about what is being said here. Also, they did release Smiley Smile. How could the band have released Smiley if they did not like Smile? If you take the Smiley version of the songs, plus the all that was released on subsequent albums through Surf's Up, they must have really liked the music that Brian created for Smile.

Just because Smiley was released doesnt mean the boys loved it or SMiLE. You're saying my assumptions/speculation is wrong based on your own assumptions/speculation. Truth is, nobody can claim the high ground here, it's all educated guesswork.

What? I say it because it is much more weird sounding than anything on Smile. They put their name on the production credit. Nothing they did after Party sounded anything like what came before it. They were moving forward with varying degrees of success, but moving forward none the less. So far in both threads discussing Smile, there is nothing new put forward that hasn't been beat to death in other threads. We do know through those who have spent years researching this era that many factors went into the shelving of Smile, the least of which is that the guys did not like some of the songs.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Hate may be too strong a word. Disapproved, maybe?

Nope, not even disapproved. Carl made a finished version of "Surf's Up," after all, and put Smile tracks on subsequent BB albums. That strongly suggests to me that he liked the music.

Perhaps he liked some tracks but not others? Or took awhile to warm up to it?

Please think about what is being said here. Also, they did release Smiley Smile. How could the band have released Smiley if they did not like Smile? If you take the Smiley version of the songs, plus the all that was released on subsequent albums through Surf's Up, they must have really liked the music that Brian created for Smile.

Just because Smiley was released doesnt mean the boys loved it or SMiLE. You're saying my assumptions/speculation is wrong based on your own assumptions/speculation. Truth is, nobody can claim the high ground here, it's all educated guesswork.

What? I say it because it is much more weird sounding than anything on Smile. They put their name on the production credit. Nothing they did after Party sounded anything like what came before it. They were moving forward with varying degrees of success, but moving forward none the less. So far in both threads discussing Smile, there is nothing new put forward that hasn't been beat to death in other threads. We do know through those who have spent years researching this era that many factors went into the shelving of Smile, the least of which is that the guys did not like some of the songs.

I'm not blaming the guys for the album's nonrelease. All I said was that's interesting to note that Carl disliked SMiLE too.

Smiley was even weirder but it was a completely different sound. It's possible to like one style of weird but not the other.

[drbeachboy]

Hate may be too strong a word. Disapproved, maybe?

Nope, not even disapproved. Carl made a finished version of "Surf's Up," after all, and put Smile tracks on subsequent BB albums. That strongly suggests to me that he liked the music.

Perhaps he liked some tracks but not others? Or took awhile to warm up to it?

Please think about what is being said here. Also, they did release Smiley Smile. How could the band have released Smiley if they did not like Smile? If you take the Smiley version of the songs, plus the all that was released on subsequent albums through Surf's Up, they must have really liked the music that Brian created for Smile.

Just because Smiley was released doesnt mean the boys loved it or SMiLE. You're saying my assumptions/speculation is wrong based on your own assumptions/speculation. Truth is, nobody can claim the high ground here, it's all educated guesswork.

What? I say it because it is much more weird sounding than anything on Smile. They put their name on the production credit. Nothing they did after Party sounded anything like what came before it. They were moving forward with varying degrees of success, but moving forward none the less. So far in both threads discussing Smile, there is nothing new put forward that hasn't been beat to death in other threads. We do know through those who have spent years researching this era that many factors went into the shelving of Smile, the least of which is that the guys did not like some of the songs.

I'm not blaming the guys for the album's nonrelease. All I said was that's interesting to note that Carl disliked SMiLE too.

Smiley was even weirder but it was a completely different sound. It's possible to like one style of weird but not the other.

Singing-wise and musically dynamic, Smile is much closer to what they were doing on Today and Pet Sounds than anything on Smiley Smile. As for Carl, didn't he liken Smile to a grand-slam when comparing it to Smiley Smile (a bunt)? If anyone in the group besides Brian knew that they had to move forward in a big way, it was Carl. Just looking at what was released between 1967 and 1973, it was Carl & Dennis who were the most progressive in moving the band forward and trying to keep the band relevant.

[Kurosawa]

Hate may be too strong a word. Disapproved, maybe?

Nope, not even disapproved. Carl made a finished version of "Surf's Up," after all, and put Smile tracks on subsequent BB albums. That strongly suggests to me that he liked the music.

Perhaps he liked some tracks but not others? Or took awhile to warm up to it?

Please think about what is being said here. Also, they did release Smiley Smile. How could the band have released Smiley if they did not like Smile? If you take the Smiley version of the songs, plus the all that was released on subsequent albums through Surf's Up, they must have really liked the music that Brian created for Smile.

Just because Smiley was released doesnt mean the boys loved it or SMiLE. You're saying my assumptions/speculation is wrong based on your own assumptions/speculation. Truth is, nobody can claim the high ground here, it's all educated guesswork.

What? I say it because it is much more weird sounding than anything on Smile. They put their name on the production credit. Nothing they did after Party sounded anything like what came before it. They were moving forward with varying degrees of success, but moving forward none the less. So far in both threads discussing Smile, there is nothing new put forward that hasn't been beat to death in other threads. We do know through those who have spent years researching this era that many factors went into the shelving of Smile, the least of which is that the guys did not like some of the songs.

I'm not blaming the guys for the album's nonrelease. All I said was that's interesting to note that Carl disliked SMiLE too.

Smiley was even weirder but it was a completely different sound. It's possible to like one style of weird but not the other.

Singing-wise and musically dynamic, Smile is much closer to what they were doing on Today and Pet Sounds than anything on Smiley Smile. As for Carl, didn't he liken Smile to a grand-slam when comparing it to Smiley Smile (a bunt)? If anyone in the group besides Brian knew that they had to move forward in a big way, it was Carl. Just looking at what was released between 1967 and 1973, it was Carl & Dennis who were the most progressive in moving the band forward and trying to keep the band relevant.

Yeah, I've heard that Carl quote before. More than anything, and starting with SMiLE, Brian developed a failure to finish the things he started. Even Love You, an album many people see as a Brian solo album, Carl had to finish it. Brian got to a point where first he couldn't tour and write, then he couldn't write and finish a project (SMiLE), then he contributed less and less to the band's albums, and finally he was all but gone with an occasional cameo. He really hasn't completely realized a project on his own since Pet Sounds, IMO.

[SenorPotatoHead]

Maybe they were apprehensive about the album, its lyrics, etc., but yet they were also excited about it (and as is pretty evident, put a lot of work into it), and maybe what really drove the project down and caused dissension was the continual reworkings/re-recordings, the amount of delay happening.  One can imagine they may have been like, "WTF??  Let's finish this already and get it out while we still have a major hit in the charts!"  Brian was even quoted (in '68?) about how the decision not to release Surf's Up at that point was a major issue among the band.   When it comes to why Smile didn't happen there is only one person ultimately responsible, and we all know who that was/is.  Why that was, though, is not completely clear - but blaming the band doesn't really hold up under scrutiny.

[Mikie]

If Carl didn't like Smile, he would not have dragged Steve Desper into the vaults to retrieve the Woodshop fragment, Our Prayer, Cabinessence, Cool Cool Water, and Surf's Up.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Maybe they were apprehensive about the album, its lyrics, etc., but yet they were also excited about it (and as is pretty evident, put a lot of work into it), and maybe what really drove the project down and caused dissension was the continual reworkings/re-recordings, the amount of delay happening.  One can imagine they may have been like, "WTF??  Let's finish this already and get it out while we still have a major hit in the charts!"  Brian was even quoted (in '68?) about how the decision not to release Surf's Up at that point was a major issue among the band.   When it comes to why Smile didn't happen there is only one person ultimately responsible, and we all know who that was/is.  Why that was, though, is not completely clear - but blaming the band doesn't really hold up under scrutiny.

Yes, I think it's been established the band was not at fault.

[Mikie]

Mikie (1992):  Marilyn, why was Smile scrapped?  Did it have to do with drugs?
Marilyn Wilson-Rutherford:  Drugs. Yes, without a doubt.

[drbeachboy]

Maybe they were apprehensive about the album, its lyrics, etc., but yet they were also excited about it (and as is pretty evident, put a lot of work into it), and maybe what really drove the project down and caused dissension was the continual reworkings/re-recordings, the amount of delay happening.  One can imagine they may have been like, "WTF??  Let's finish this already and get it out while we still have a major hit in the charts!"  Brian was even quoted (in '68?) about how the decision not to release Surf's Up at that point was a major issue among the band.   When it comes to why Smile didn't happen there is only one person ultimately responsible, and we all know who that was/is.  Why that was, though, is not completely clear - but blaming the band doesn't really hold up under scrutiny.

Yes, I think it's been established the band was not at fault.

Has it? Some people seem to think Brian couldn't continue without apologies and a complete and utter buy-in by anyone and everyone who had any doubts about what Brian was doing.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Maybe they were apprehensive about the album, its lyrics, etc., but yet they were also excited about it (and as is pretty evident, put a lot of work into it), and maybe what really drove the project down and caused dissension was the continual reworkings/re-recordings, the amount of delay happening.  One can imagine they may have been like, "WTF??  Let's finish this already and get it out while we still have a major hit in the charts!"  Brian was even quoted (in '68?) about how the decision not to release Surf's Up at that point was a major issue among the band.   When it comes to why Smile didn't happen there is only one person ultimately responsible, and we all know who that was/is.  Why that was, though, is not completely clear - but blaming the band doesn't really hold up under scrutiny.

Yes, I think it's been established the band was not at fault.

Has it? Some people seem to think Brian couldn't continue without apologies and a complete and utter buy-in by anyone and everyone who had any doubts about what Brian was doing.

I think before, people wanted somebody, ANYBODY to pin SMiLE on and Mike was an easy scapegoat. That attitude still exists, but it's becoming more nuanced and fair. Mike didn't kill SMiLE. I think only the most misinformed and/or biased fans would tell you that. For what it's worth, I've seen many argue the other way, that their unsupportiveness was a nonfactor, which I don't think is fair either. The truth is probably in the middle. Their lack of interest hurt Brian's feelings somewhat, and probably exacerbated creative differences between him and VDP. But ultimately it was a variety of serious issues going on and it was solely Brian's call to start over with Smiley.

[CenturyDeprived]

Maybe they were apprehensive about the album, its lyrics, etc., but yet they were also excited about it (and as is pretty evident, put a lot of work into it), and maybe what really drove the project down and caused dissension was the continual reworkings/re-recordings, the amount of delay happening.  One can imagine they may have been like, "WTF??  Let's finish this already and get it out while we still have a major hit in the charts!"  Brian was even quoted (in '68?) about how the decision not to release Surf's Up at that point was a major issue among the band.   When it comes to why Smile didn't happen there is only one person ultimately responsible, and we all know who that was/is.  Why that was, though, is not completely clear - but blaming the band doesn't really hold up under scrutiny.

Yes, I think it's been established the band was not at fault.

Has it? Some people seem to think Brian couldn't continue without apologies and a complete and utter buy-in by anyone and everyone who had any doubts about what Brian was doing.

My line of thinking wasn't that Brian needed an apology to make it possible to finish the album. My line of thinking was that if the (however inadvertently) hurtful words/actions had not been said in the first place, it would have been one significantly less monkey off his back at the time.

And that once all was said and done, looking back, an apology or expression of regret at some point in the intervening years (or even at the time) would have been the right thing to do (not that the apology would, in and of itself, magically make Brian "able" to finish the project).

[drbeachboy]

Maybe they were apprehensive about the album, its lyrics, etc., but yet they were also excited about it (and as is pretty evident, put a lot of work into it), and maybe what really drove the project down and caused dissension was the continual reworkings/re-recordings, the amount of delay happening.  One can imagine they may have been like, "WTF??  Let's finish this already and get it out while we still have a major hit in the charts!"  Brian was even quoted (in '68?) about how the decision not to release Surf's Up at that point was a major issue among the band.   When it comes to why Smile didn't happen there is only one person ultimately responsible, and we all know who that was/is.  Why that was, though, is not completely clear - but blaming the band doesn't really hold up under scrutiny.

Yes, I think it's been established the band was not at fault.

Has it? Some people seem to think Brian couldn't continue without apologies and a complete and utter buy-in by anyone and everyone who had any doubts about what Brian was doing.

I think before, people wanted somebody, ANYBODY to pin SMiLE on and Mike was an easy scapegoat. That attitude still exists, but it's becoming more nuanced and fair. Mike didn't kill SMiLE. I think only the most misinformed and/or biased fans would tell you that. For what it's worth, I've seen many argue the other way, that their unsupportiveness was a nonfactor, which I don't think is fair either. The truth is probably in the middle. Their lack of interest hurt Brian's feelings somewhat, and probably exacerbated creative differences between him and VDP. But ultimately it was a variety of serious issues going on and it was solely Brian's call to start over with Smiley.

Considering the performances of their singing, I would neither call it lack of interest nor being unsupportive, but I agree with your assessment that Smile started and ended with Brian.

[Gabo]

cuz he was/is fat an lazy

[Andrew G. Doe]

Even before he started substantially altering his mindset with substances, Brian was prone to making some very questionable decisions on very dubious or whimsical grounds, viz. the "Little Honda" tale: he was playing back the final mix and when someone passing by stuck their head into the control room, Brian asked their opinion of the band's projected next single. "Nah, don't like it" was the response, whereupon Brian canned it as a A side on the spot.

Allegedly - it may be apocryphal, but even so, serves to illustrate a point.

[buddhahat]

Here's my take:

Brian was split between two goals that were difficult to reconcile:

Creating a piece of art that would earn cred from hipsters/heads of the time and keep The Beach Boys ahead of the curve.

Creating a popular 'hit' record, that would earn lots of money for him, his bandmates, his family, and respect from his father.

Good Vibrations managed to do both, but it must have been obvious that as Smile developed it was not going to be GV mark II. I think VDP's artistic sensibilities are all over Smile and I think the artiness was at odds with some of Brian's core aims. So I think the project created a discordance within him that must have opened the floodgates for self doubt. Arty vs Hit. Had he shared VDP's self confidence and pioneering f**k you squares spirit that would have been do-able but Brian had a foot in both camps. I think there would have been too much of a sense of risk at letting down his bandmates, and of failing in the eyes of Murry.

Sure Smiley Smile is weirder in some ways, but the whole band is on board so there's no risk of letting them down. It's weird, but in a kind of sniggering locker room 'we're not taking this too seriously' sort of way. You could argue that it's a more cowardly album than smile, although maybe that's unfair. It was certainly much safer, even if it doesn't immediately sound safer.

[Cam Mott]

Hasn't Brian claimed that Carl had issues with Good Vibrations?