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Author Topic: TSS - All things Surf's Up  (Read 33533 times)
The_Holy_Bee
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« Reply #150 on: August 21, 2015, 04:47:19 PM »

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I'm talking about the recording where they imitate fish not just say "fish fish fishy underwater etc".

Ah, okay - sorry, I'd forgotten about that section completely!
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Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #151 on: August 21, 2015, 05:42:30 PM »

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I'm talking about the recording where they imitate fish not just say "fish fish fishy underwater etc".

Ah, okay - sorry, I'd forgotten about that section completely!

Its cool.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
The_Holy_Bee
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« Reply #152 on: August 26, 2015, 02:07:52 AM »

A quote I rediscovered recently, from VDP in 2003. I make no further comment:

"I'd sat out that so-called 'Mrs O'Leary's Cow' session in 1966: I felt an emerging irrelevance. With no lyrics, yet. The writing was on the wall... The only piece of "The Elements" I worked on was 'Vege-Tables' [sic]."
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The_Holy_Bee
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« Reply #153 on: August 26, 2015, 03:31:20 AM »

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It fits the SMiLE concepts too well for me to dismiss as a separate project. Unless it would've been an extra EP like with Holland, but I'd argue then that it's still SMiLE.

Yes, but Anderle - a "serious source", and only 18 months later - talks about the recording of "very humorous situations" (which in context, to me, quite clearly includes 'Taxi Cabber', though I grant you that's not made explicit - or is it? Vosse may mention it) and "the first pop humour LP", quite distinctly from SMiLE, in the Crawdaddy interview. You may well be the first person to ever suggest a "Mt Vernon" style EP as an intended destination for these experiments: and someone who was there, and managing a good chunk of Brian Wilson's personal and the Beach Boys' group business affairs, describes specifically "the first pop humour LP". Not EP. And not SMiLE. Surely Anderle, of all people, was in a position to know the difference.

I'm increasingly finding you're as inflexible on your positions - as willing to ignore or highlight particular pieces of the puzzle as suits your predetermined opinion - as "the old-timers" you affectionately decry.

I appreciate your passion for this subject and willingness to think creatively, intelligently and without restriction on the historical and artistic issues at play. But it's a little disheartening to dig out and reference articles - which you concede you own in LLVS - that include relevant material (evidence, data, anecdote, what have you) only to get responses like "Is there any actual proof of this comedy album idea ever actually being a serious endeavor of Brian's?".  

Well, yes. I've told you where that information is, and you own it. At least give the debate, if not me, the respect of bothering to read a six-page article you already possess before typing up a dismissal of its (unread) contents.

EDIT: Further, I even offered to email you [links to] a PDF of Brian: Part One (and the other two Crawdaddy pieces) to spare you the effort of digging out and through LLVS. I received no response from you to this offer. Is that because you were worried the data within would not support your thesis?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2015, 09:08:44 AM by The_Holy_Bee » Logged
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #154 on: August 27, 2015, 12:26:20 AM »

A quote I rediscovered recently, from VDP in 2003. I make no further comment:

"I'd sat out that so-called 'Mrs O'Leary's Cow' session in 1966: I felt an emerging irrelevance. With no lyrics, yet. The writing was on the wall... The only piece of "The Elements" I worked on was 'Vege-Tables' [sic]."

Indeed. Very strong evidence there.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #155 on: August 27, 2015, 01:18:22 AM »

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It fits the SMiLE concepts too well for me to dismiss as a separate project. Unless it would've been an extra EP like with Holland, but I'd argue then that it's still SMiLE.

Yes, but Anderle - a "serious source", and only 18 months later - talks about the recording of "very humorous situations" (which in context, to me, quite clearly includes 'Taxi Cabber', though I grant you that's not made explicit - or is it? Vosse may mention it) and "the first pop humour LP", quite distinctly from SMiLE, in the Crawdaddy interview. You may well be the first person to ever suggest a "Mt Vernon" style EP as an intended destination for these experiments: and someone who was there, and managing a good chunk of Brian Wilson's personal and the Beach Boys' group business affairs, describes specifically "the first pop humour LP". Not EP. And not SMiLE. Surely Anderle, of all people, was in a position to know the difference.

I never used the phrase serious source. I asked if there was definitive proof of it being a serious endeavor of Brian's. As in, that it was a fully conceptualized plan that he stuck with for more than a day, a week, a month. Otherwise Im inclined to think it was another passing thought, like so much else at that time. Im not doubting Anderle's involvement, Im doubting Brian's resolve with all this. The suggestion about a separate EP was only half-serious. In any case, those skits are still born out of the SMiLE concepts. Veggies, Breathing/water, stoners journeying across America--mentioning Chicago specifically, with a section of music referred to in another interview as "Mrs Olearys Fire"--it all fits. If this pop humor LP was a separate project, it was still undeniably related to SMiLE. And Im not convinced it was a serious endeavor. The details are non-existent, and the concept is too vague. How do we know the Psychedelic Sounds werent still meant for SMiLE, but Brian was so excited at how they turned out he thought of doing a whole new album in that style in the future? Maybe the Psychedelic Sounds really were a separate thing. Id argue then that the two idea were melded together later, and before Smiley. The cantina edit of Heroes and contemporaneous interview he gave about spoken word humor on the album attest to that. The fact that George Fell was part of a Surfs Up session attests to that. The two are intrinsically linked, end of story. The question is how much, and that probably changed as time went on. But theyre still part of SMiLE, still pieces of the puzzle, still worth examining in the context of the album and still worthy inclusions to any fan mix.

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I'm increasingly finding you're as inflexible on your positions - as willing to ignore or highlight particular pieces of the puzzle as suits your predetermined opinion - as "the old-timers" you affectionately decry.

My views on this have changed greatly over time. My view now was formed through years of listening and playing around with the material as well as reading some interviews, etc. Just because I dont radically change my perspective every time you throw another quote at me, sometimes out of context, often tinted with your own interpretation of said quote, doesnt make me inflexible. Im taking your propositions and evidence into account. You've totally convinced me on VT being an element, for example.

Quote
I appreciate your passion for this subject and willingness to think creatively, intelligently and without restriction on the historical and artistic issues at play. But it's a little disheartening to dig out and reference articles - which you concede you own in LLVS - that include relevant material (evidence, data, anecdote, what have you) only to get responses like "Is there any actual proof of this comedy album idea ever actually being a serious endeavor of Brian's?".  

Thank you for that first part, tho Im not sure what you mean by "without restriction on the historical and artistic issues at play." If you mean, the years of speculation before me and the release of BWPS, thank you. If you mean Im deliberately subverting historical fact or something, I take offense to that as you nor me nor anyone can claim to know historical fact on this. Yes, because there's only one reference by one guy and nothing else. As great as that source is...all it means is that at some point Brian said "hey lets do a comedy album." The same Brian who said "hey lets put this clanging silverware on the album" and threw out a hundred other ideas at the time. In any case, it doesnt prove Psychedelic Sounds was a separate project, for all the reasons Ive listed above. Again, its all about weighing the evidence. Does one vague quote/concept negate all else that seems to point to PS and SMiLE proper being related? I dont think so. You seem to disagree. And Im sure everyone reading this is convinced their SMiLE is right for XYZ reasons too. Im open to new ideas on this, but again you cant expect me to just throw out my current understanding of SMiLE over your interpretation of one vague quote.

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Well, yes. I've told you where that information is, and you own it. At least give the debate, if not me, the respect of bothering to read a six-page article you already possess before typing up a dismissal of its (unread) contents.

One bit of evidence from a guy we previously agreed was probably talking about the PS in context to the elements earlier. Im not dismissing the contents, just questioning how we should best interpret them. I dismissed your assertion of Surfs Up as an element because of the booklet. You see the difference?

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EDIT: Further, I even offered to email you [links to] a PDF of Brian: Part One (and the other two Crawdaddy pieces) to spare you the effort of digging out and through LLVS. I received no response from you to this offer. Is that because you were worried the data within would not support your thesis?

At this point, youre just being obnoxious.

What you sent me was already quoting what I presumed would be the relevant quotations you wanted to discuss in the message itself. Forgive me for not giving out my personal email address to a stranger for files I already own and have just been quoted to me anyway. Forgive me for not refreshing myself on the article proper. School has started, I am busy with moving roommates in and exroommates out of my apartment, Im starting transitioning which has been wonderful but stressful and scary, Im in the midst of reading another book already (Storm of Swords, by grrm) and trying to have a social life besides. I go on this board for fun because I deeply love this album and band and enjoy discussing it. But for the time being, yes, Ive been a bit too preoccupied to read this article for the sake of proving my interpretation to someone on the internet. Especially so when thus far all the seemingly relevant excerpts have been quoted to me and all your conclusions drawn from them I find inconclusive. You accuse me of speculation whenever I come to an interpretation different than your own, but I myself dont find yours any more inherently truthful or infallible than my own. So what, your big point here is that psychedelic sounds wasnt part of SMiLE? I think there's some solid evidence to warrant disagreeing with you. From Anderle himself even, given yours and my agreement regarding the water and possibly air sections of SMiLE being in PS, at least in rudimentary form. Im genuinely sorry. But there's no need to publicly accuse me of evasion like that, given the circumstances. As if Im really so invested in the idea of PS skits being on SMiLE that I just cant handle the thought that maybe Im wrong. No.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2015, 05:29:42 AM by Mujan, B@st@rd of a Blue Wizard » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
The_Holy_Bee
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« Reply #156 on: August 28, 2015, 09:52:59 PM »

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Is there any actual proof of this comedy album idea ever actually being a serious endeavor of Brian's? I only heard about it on the wiki and a few posters here echoing the idea but never heard anything from a serious source.

So there's that. I wasn't putting words in your post.

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If you mean, the years of speculation before me and the release of BWPS, thank you.

That is what I meant, yes.

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Forgive me for not giving out my personal email address to a stranger for files I already own and have just been quoted to me anyway. Forgive me for not refreshing myself on the article proper.

Forgiven on both counts. I thought you were genuinely interested in getting into this, with full recourse to the interviews we were discussing, so I offered to send you pdfs of those articles in case that would make things easier for you. I understand your reluctance to share personal data with a stranger, but a polite recognition and refusal would have been nice. Not necessary, but nice.

I still stand by the stance that if you want to discuss these issues - or, at least, raise questions about sources and what they may have said (several times; the quote beginning this post is just one) - then being expected to read short, relevant articles that are referenced and which you have said you own is hardly - to quote VDP by way of Dickens - "a great expectation". That was the minor beef expressed in my previous post. You're posting daily, in multiple threads, sometimes at length. So you have some time at your disposal. What you do with it is, of course, up to you and none of my concern. But you do have time.

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At this point, youre just being obnoxious.

Well, I'm sorry about that. I wasn't trying to be. I was enjoying the debate, but that enjoyment was being increasingly tempered by the feeling you were being a bit recalcitrant both in your arguments - I've already conceded, remember, the "Elements-as-four-tracks" and "Surf's Up-as-one-of-'em" debates on the basis of your points and further reading - and reluctant to engage with relevant material. So maybe I was a bit aggressive; and if so I apologise. Especially considering the happenings in your personal life, of which I wasn't aware (school pressures aside) -  a sincere congratulations on your transitioning, by the way; I can imagine there must be some stressful times in the midst of that process.

I would ask, however, that you look at the thread listings of the SS Box Set forum and see on how many you're the final poster. You have here someone willing to engage in serious and thoughtful conversation on a topic, and who hasn't been run off by your willingness to do the same. To take this album and these songs seriously. EDIT: deleted paragraph.

In any case - with the knowledge we haven't really engaged in any conversation about "Surf's Up" for several posts now, I am also retiring from this part of the forum. Thanks for acknowledging my Veggies conviction/the VDP quote, and I think we largely concur on PS being at least a working draft for ideas that may have been re-recorded with "the Boys" as part of an one-track "Elements" suite, if other factors hadn't intervened. If you do find the time to read those Crawdaddy pieces, I'm keen to take this back up somewhere else. Otherwise, I'm still hugely enjoying your mix - it's on as I type this - and look forward to reading your posts elsewhere on the Board.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 05:14:28 AM by The_Holy_Bee » Logged
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #157 on: August 29, 2015, 09:54:57 AM »

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If you mean, the years of speculation before me and the release of BWPS, thank you.

That is what I meant, yes.
In that case, thank you.

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Forgiven on both counts. I thought you were genuinely interested in getting into this, with full recourse to the interviews we were discussing, so I offered to send you pdfs of those articles in case that would make things easier for you. I understand your reluctance to share personal data with a stranger, but a polite recognition and refusal would have been nice. Not necessary, but nice.

I am, Ive just had a lot of other things going on right now. I was content to reply to the excerpts youve been quoting until you brought up the fact that I didnt have you email me the article as some kind of trump card against me. When I get a chance to read the whole article, if it changes anything for me, Ill let you know.

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I still stand by the stance that if you want to discuss these issues - or, at least, raise questions about sources and what they may have said (several times; the quote beginning this post is just one) - then being expected to read short, relevant articles that are referenced and which you have said you own is hardly - to quote VDP by way of Dickens - "a great expectation". That was the minor beef expressed in my previous post. You're posting daily, in multiple threads, sometimes at length. So you have some time at your disposal. What you do with it is, of course, up to you and none of my concern. But you do have time.

Posting on a couple threads on my phone here and there while Im on the go throughout the day is different than sitting down and reading the article--which i meant to and will read at some point. Like I said the past week or two have been pretty hectic. Im just going by what youve quoted to me, and nothing seems particularly definitive or clear. Vague talks of some comedy album from which you assume must mean PS was a separate project, things like that. Im just trying to point out that theres no saying how serious Brian was about such a thing, or if that means it was PS. I think thats far to point out without having read the full article just yet.

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Well, I'm sorry about that. I wasn't trying to be. I was enjoying the debate, but that enjoyment was being increasingly tempered by the feeling you were being a bit recalcitrant both in your arguments - I've already conceded, remember, the "Elements-as-four-tracks" and "Surf's Up-as-one-of-'em" debates on the basis of your points and further reading - and reluctant to engage with relevant material. So maybe I was a bit aggressive; and if so I apologise. Especially considering the happenings in your personal life, of which I wasn't aware (school pressures aside) -  a sincere congratulations on your transitioning, by the way; I can imagine there must be some stressful times in the midst of that process.

I have as well, I just thought the public accusation of evasion was unnecessary. But you're right, I ought to read the article before saying too much. I'll edit this post in the next couple days with my thought on it, how about that?

Yes, Im glad you were willing to reconsider your points in the face of further evidence--as have I with VT being an element. That last quote from VDP especially sealed the deal for me. I appreciate the kind words Smiley

Quote
I would ask, however, that you look at the thread listings of the SS Box Set forum and see on how many you're the final poster. You have here someone willing to engage in serious and thoughtful conversation on a topic, and who hasn't been run off by your willingness to do the same. To take this album and these songs seriously. EDIT: deleted paragraph.

Yes, I entered into those topics fairly late in the game. When the boxset was released, I was a lurker here. I enjoyed reading those threads. When I first started posting (and was much more infrequent) I saw a LOT of interesting discussions about this album that changed the way I see it. Things like the arguments for Worms going first which Ive parroted above, Wind Chimes being a song about the anticipation of death and an expression of loneliness, Talking Horns being (a rudimentary version of) the second half of Surfs Up...etc. Since I have a lot of thoughts on the material, and especially because bumping older SMiLE threads got me a bit of scorn, I thought coming here and adding my two cents to each would be the best idea. It is a shame more havent added to the discussion since, but I kind of understand it. As much of a jerk as she was, KitKat (or was it KittyKat?) had a point about how these discussions have been going on forever for a lot of fans. Theres hardly any more to say for them, Im sure. I do appreciate your willingness to do so. Like I said, I too was enjoying this, just a few comments here and there--that Im all speculation, that Im evading--I felt were somewhat unfair and insulting.

Quote
In any case - with the knowledge we haven't really engaged in any conversation about "Surf's Up" for several posts now, I am also retiring from this part of the forum. Thanks for acknowledging my Veggies conviction/the VDP quote, and I think we largely concur on PS being at least a working draft for ideas that may have been re-recorded with "the Boys" as part of an one-track "Elements" suite, if other factors hadn't intervened. If you do find the time to read those Crawdaddy pieces, I'm keen to take this back up somewhere else. Otherwise, I'm still hugely enjoying your mix - it's on as I type this - and look forward to reading your posts elsewhere on the Board.

Thats a shame:/ Like I said, Ill update this post and probably send you a PM in a few days when I get an hour or so to read this article and type up my thoughts all the same. I confess I havent listened to your mix just yet, but I have downloaded it. Ill give you my thoughts on that as well. Cheers.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2015, 09:55:54 AM by Mujan, B@st@rd of a Blue Wizard » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
[
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