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Author Topic: TSS - All things Surf's Up  (Read 61123 times)
Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard
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« Reply #100 on: January 16, 2015, 03:39:46 PM »


I agree with you that it probably would have been fairly jarring but I think the second section to Surf's Up would have sounded entirely different from any of the versions we have now. The Smile aesthetic was, for the most part, crazy, over-the-top arrangements. Even Wonderful, which is simple, has a lot going on, when you put together both the instruments and the vocals. And when you consider that Surf's Up was kind of the epic of the album, the second half was really primed for some kind of magnificent treatment. Of course, I love the demo and I do enjoy the versions we have but there is also something very sad about the song that we have because it most likely would have been something wholly different.

This is exactly how I feel about this song summed up perfectly. I could cry that he never finished certain things in particular. This probably being front of the queue. In my mind, I don't doubt for a second it would have elevated an already incredible song. Imagine hearing God Only Knows on piano only for years and then suddenly hearing the finished product. I doubt the effect would have been too far for surfs up.

You made me cry Cry I think the song works ok as it is where the second half is more sparse, but I think a truly completed version would really blow all of us away. It only speaks to how great the song is that it's still listenable in its half-finished, frankensteined state. I have to agree with whoever said the transition between halves probably would have been pretty abrupt, even in a finished SU. The other SMiLE songs have a lot of those abrupt transitions. Wind Chimes, Heroes, Wonderful--had the insert been finished, etc. Nothing wrong with that, tho. GV did just fine and sounds great with the same thing.

If it were released officially in 1967, we wouldn't have a 19 song album. As much as I love mono, I really think that the 2cd version at least shold have been as much stereo as possible. The stereo mixes on side 4 literally blew my mind. Mono can do justice to a beautiful production work (I'm thinking about Spector's River Deep, Montain High), but I don't really think it's the case here.

Doesn't matter. Was never going to happen.

And for 1967, it wouldn't have been 19 tracks, but I can bet you the lot that it would have been 19 tracks before it was true stereo.

That's one of many reasons that I end up being rather grateful it wasn't finished until 2004.  There was too much great material for a single LP, not quite enough for a double, and anyway, Capitol would have never swung for a double before the White Album.  I always felt that BWPS was the "just right" solution to the SMiLE puzzle, and to see the sessions released according to that as a template is just perfect.

Are you kidding? So just because every single piece of music associated with SMiLE wasnt going to be released at once, it's better that the world be deprived of that magnificent music and the Boys reputations be ruined? No way. SMiLE would have perfectly fit the mood of the times in '67 and elevated the band to the level of respect of the Beatles or even above that. BWPS is nice, and the fact that we got that and Smiley is a cool silver lining to the tragedy, but I think it is, undeniably a tragedy, that the album wasn't finished when it would have made the greatest impact. A lot of that material could have made nice B-sides or held over to other projects as well, you know.

Laughing horns...possible idea for overdub around the "Laughs come hard..." line?

I'm pretty sure that idea was used in the first section of the song. Makes me very certain that the "moaning" and "wailing" horn sections in Talking Horns would have been used in Part 2 in some capacity.

I'm happy they kept the 1971 "Bygone, bygone" and the fade but left that organ from the mix. That 1971 organ always annoyed me. Man, they were the frigging Beach Boys, why didn't they just sing that part like they do on H&V? That would have been great!

Agreed. Love those bygone overdubs. I

The Surf's Up 1967 version is a surprise to me. It sounds like a Smiley Smile or Wild Honey outtake, but I've never heard a thing about it in the pre-box set years. I haven't found any info on it in my first pass through the big box set book. If this is post-Smile, I wonder if Brian was considering putting the song on either SS or WH?

It wouldn't have fit on WH at all. But on Smiley it could have been brilliant. In a perfect world that would have made a great addition to Side 2 in place of GV which doesnt fit at all.


In THAT version, you hear in my opinion the dichotomy of what Brian heard in his head, and what he was able to show others.  So to the outside listener, they heard Brian singing the demo.  Piano, beautiful voice.  In Brian's head, though, were all the other harmonies and voices singing along with him, like they are at the end of that version.  So it goes from outside Brian's head, inside Brian's head when the boys all chime in with their incredible vocals at the end.

Now I know that's not the official version of the song or whatever, but the '71 version will always have a special place in my heart.  

I think the 71 version is just as legitimate as the Smile-era versions. It has the exact same feeling, of goosebumps, like you said. Smiley

Disagreed. I think Surf's Up '71 is no more legitimate an attempt at a SMiLE song than any other SMiLE fragment released on later albums. It's nice, but not the intent of the song from '66-'67 and still a forced , somewhat desperate bid for attention. That may rub some of you the wrong way, but thats how I see just about every reworked SMiLE fragment on a later album. These songs, in spite of what some of you think, were made to be together in my opinion. Putting them on something else is like painting a picture, then cutting out a piece of Van Gogh's Starry Night and pasting it in the middle of the new painting, in the misguided belief that because it has a piece of a masterwork in it it makes the new painting better.

The 67 version just so happens to be my favorite version of the song now. Possibly one of my favorite BW vocals as well.

Beautiful.

It might be my favorite too, at least for now.  When I heard about a Wild Honey-era "Surf's Up," I thought, "ok, interesting curio."  But OMG.  One of his best vocal performances ever IMO.  Definitely the best surprise for me on this whole set.

It really is beautiful. Probably my favorite take on the song too. I wish Brian had released something like that for a single instead of wasting so much precious time forcing H&V to be commercial instead. Would have been a great contrast to GV, and still kept the orchestrated SU a surprise for the album.




I also just want to thank this thread for giving me the idea to use Talking Horns as the Second Movement of SU. The more I think about it, it really makes sense. Maybe the take we have wouldnt have been used, but I think something like it would.

For my money, I hate the '71 fade tho. I think it's too busy and kinda cheesy sounding, and not the original intent but rather a last minute decision to recycle an unused fragment that was too brilliant to go unheard by the masses. Brian never sang the CIFOTM chorus or "and the children know the way" in any of the versions before '71. I think he would have, in place of the "aahs" had it been so integral in '67.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2015, 03:48:36 PM by Mujan, B@st@rd Son of a Blue Wizard » Logged

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« Reply #101 on: January 16, 2015, 07:46:47 PM »

For my money, I hate the '71 fade tho. I think it's too busy and kinda cheesy sounding, and not the original intent but rather a last minute decision to recycle an unused fragment that was too brilliant to go unheard by the masses. Brian never sang the CIFOTM chorus or "and the children know the way" in any of the versions before '71. I think he would have, in place of the "aahs" had it been so integral in '67.

We have no way of knowing if it that ending was the "original intent" or not. I would say the anecdotes of Brian rushing into the studio unannounced while they were working on the song, handing out parts for everyone, may have been his way of saying, "If you guys HAVE to finish this song, let's at least do it right."

I'm a big fan of the ending. If Brian wanted to finish and put out "Child" on a later record, he could have. What's taken from "Child" is just one vocal part (transposed to fit "Surf's Up", it really needs to be mentioned. He didn't just change the key and throw it in there) and nothing more, anyway - the rest of the vocals weren't heard prior to '71, either.
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« Reply #102 on: January 16, 2015, 10:03:56 PM »

For my money, I hate the '71 fade tho. I think it's too busy and kinda cheesy sounding, and not the original intent but rather a last minute decision to recycle an unused fragment that was too brilliant to go unheard by the masses. Brian never sang the CIFOTM chorus or "and the children know the way" in any of the versions before '71. I think he would have, in place of the "aahs" had it been so integral in '67.

We have no way of knowing if it that ending was the "original intent" or not. I would say the anecdotes of Brian rushing into the studio unannounced while they were working on the song, handing out parts for everyone, may have been his way of saying, "If you guys HAVE to finish this song, let's at least do it right."

I'm a big fan of the ending. If Brian wanted to finish and put out "Child" on a later record, he could have. What's taken from "Child" is just one vocal part (transposed to fit "Surf's Up", it really needs to be mentioned. He didn't just change the key and throw it in there) and nothing more, anyway - the rest of the vocals weren't heard prior to '71, either.

Obviously we cant be 100% certain, but we can make educated guesses. I'd say the fact that none of those other lyrics were ever sung prior to '71 is pretty solid proof. That and I dont think Brian handing out those vocal parts is any indication that that had been his initial plan. If he really wanted to do the song right, as you say, why not record or tell Carl how to record the Second Movement? No, I think it was a last minute, albeit inspired, idea to get a little bit of CIFOTM out there. As a "if we're gonna pilage SMiLE, might as well get some of the best unused pieces out there." I dont think CIFOTM was ever going to come out after the horn part was recycled into Little Bird. I used to feel the same way about that anecdote, but now I see it differently. The rest of the vocals for Child were very possibly never recorded and probably forgotten by 1971 so Im not sure what your point is regarding that.
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Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
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& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
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« Reply #103 on: January 16, 2015, 11:34:48 PM »

For my money, I hate the '71 fade tho. I think it's too busy and kinda cheesy sounding, and not the original intent but rather a last minute decision to recycle an unused fragment that was too brilliant to go unheard by the masses. Brian never sang the CIFOTM chorus or "and the children know the way" in any of the versions before '71. I think he would have, in place of the "aahs" had it been so integral in '67.

We have no way of knowing if it that ending was the "original intent" or not. I would say the anecdotes of Brian rushing into the studio unannounced while they were working on the song, handing out parts for everyone, may have been his way of saying, "If you guys HAVE to finish this song, let's at least do it right."

I'm a big fan of the ending. If Brian wanted to finish and put out "Child" on a later record, he could have. What's taken from "Child" is just one vocal part (transposed to fit "Surf's Up", it really needs to be mentioned. He didn't just change the key and throw it in there) and nothing more, anyway - the rest of the vocals weren't heard prior to '71, either.

Obviously we cant be 100% certain, but we can make educated guesses. I'd say the fact that none of those other lyrics were ever sung prior to '71 is pretty solid proof. That and I dont think Brian handing out those vocal parts is any indication that that had been his initial plan. If he really wanted to do the song right, as you say, why not record or tell Carl how to record the Second Movement? No, I think it was a last minute, albeit inspired, idea to get a little bit of CIFOTM out there. As a "if we're gonna pilage SMiLE, might as well get some of the best unused pieces out there." I dont think CIFOTM was ever going to come out after the horn part was recycled into Little Bird. I used to feel the same way about that anecdote, but now I see it differently. The rest of the vocals for Child were very possibly never recorded and probably forgotten by 1971 so Im not sure what your point is regarding that.

I'm sayin' only one transposed vocal part from "Child" is used on the '71 "Surf's Up" amid several vocal parts that weren't part of "Child", thus the notion that Brian just lifted/inserted "Child" into "Surf's Up" isn't accurate. Regardless, if the "original" ending would have been per the demo, just piano and a falsetto vocal, Brian had no more work to do on that. The fact that he came in with this huge, multi-part vocal shows some amount of work was put into it. He was only about four years removed from the original writing, which isn't long at all, so I trust the guy's judgement and assessment that the song needed the ending. You don't have to like it, I guess, but to say you don't like it as evidence that it wasn't going to be that way in '67, ehhh.

Brian not giving a f*** fairly often back then may be why he didn't insist that Carl get the Wrecking Crew together to re-cut section two.

Even using educated guesses, I wouldn't say either conclusion ("Brian had the '71 'Surf's Up' ending written in '66" or "The 1971 'Surf's Up' ending was added at the last minute") is more certain than the other.
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« Reply #104 on: January 17, 2015, 12:43:08 AM »

For my money, I hate the '71 fade tho. I think it's too busy and kinda cheesy sounding, and not the original intent but rather a last minute decision to recycle an unused fragment that was too brilliant to go unheard by the masses. Brian never sang the CIFOTM chorus or "and the children know the way" in any of the versions before '71. I think he would have, in place of the "aahs" had it been so integral in '67.

We have no way of knowing if it that ending was the "original intent" or not. I would say the anecdotes of Brian rushing into the studio unannounced while they were working on the song, handing out parts for everyone, may have been his way of saying, "If you guys HAVE to finish this song, let's at least do it right."

I'm a big fan of the ending. If Brian wanted to finish and put out "Child" on a later record, he could have. What's taken from "Child" is just one vocal part (transposed to fit "Surf's Up", it really needs to be mentioned. He didn't just change the key and throw it in there) and nothing more, anyway - the rest of the vocals weren't heard prior to '71, either.

Obviously we cant be 100% certain, but we can make educated guesses. I'd say the fact that none of those other lyrics were ever sung prior to '71 is pretty solid proof. That and I dont think Brian handing out those vocal parts is any indication that that had been his initial plan. If he really wanted to do the song right, as you say, why not record or tell Carl how to record the Second Movement? No, I think it was a last minute, albeit inspired, idea to get a little bit of CIFOTM out there. As a "if we're gonna pilage SMiLE, might as well get some of the best unused pieces out there." I dont think CIFOTM was ever going to come out after the horn part was recycled into Little Bird. I used to feel the same way about that anecdote, but now I see it differently. The rest of the vocals for Child were very possibly never recorded and probably forgotten by 1971 so Im not sure what your point is regarding that.

I'm sayin' only one transposed vocal part from "Child" is used on the '71 "Surf's Up" amid several vocal parts that weren't part of "Child", thus the notion that Brian just lifted/inserted "Child" into "Surf's Up" isn't accurate. Regardless, if the "original" ending would have been per the demo, just piano and a falsetto vocal, Brian had no more work to do on that. The fact that he came in with this huge, multi-part vocal shows some amount of work was put into it. He was only about four years removed from the original writing, which isn't long at all, so I trust the guy's judgement and assessment that the song needed the ending. You don't have to like it, I guess, but to say you don't like it as evidence that it wasn't going to be that way in '67, ehhh.

It's possible those other vocal parts were part of SU and the Child one was an addition since Brian knew that song was dead. Or that Brian was struck by some last minute inspiration that night for the other vocal parts. Sure, Brian put a lot of work into it, but does that really mean that work had to be done in 1967? A lot of work went into Cool Cool Water on Sunflower too, but that wasnt all vintage SMiLE either. Four years may not seem like a long time now considering how far removed these events are almost 50 years later. But its long enough for him to have forgotten or changed his mind about the song. Ultimately this argument could go on in circles like this forever. We just don't know. But I don't think Brian would have had parts of one song repeated in another like that, or having Heroes and Worms share a chorus. He only did the latter when the singles took priority and the whole album was up for scrap. And it's my intuition (of course, i cant be 100% certain) that he only did it with Child and Surf when the former had already been partially recycled in Little Bird and was thus, dead.

Quote
Brian not giving a f*** fairly often back then may be why he didn't insist that Carl get the Wrecking Crew together to re-cut section two.

Your argument contradicts itself. You say the ending must be vintage because Brian didnt want them to do the song the "wrong" way, but surely if that's the case he wouldnt want it to be half finished like it ended up being? He really couldnt tell Carl what the Second Movement was, but it was super important he tell them about some coda vocals?

Quote
Even using educated guesses, I wouldn't say either conclusion ("Brian had the '71 'Surf's Up' ending written in '66" or "The 1971 'Surf's Up' ending was added at the last minute") is more certain than the other

I agree. We can never be 100% certain on anything SMiLE. All we can do is weigh the (often contradictory) evidence and vote with our ears. I happen to think Brian would have sang the "the song is love, and the children know the way" in the demo or on TV or the Fall 1967 versions of the song had that been a vintage lyric, instead of the "aahs" which would otherwise be a backing vocal and not the main melody if those lyrics actually existed in the SMiLE Era. I never used the fact that I dislike the coda as evidence...but yeah, i do dislike it. I think the "wailing horns" section of the Talking Horns track sounds much better over the fade then those half dozen vocal parts and piano. Since the "laughing horns" section ended up being rerecorded for Part 1, I think perhaps those wailing horn sounds would have also been rerecorded for Part 2. Not claiming this as fact, just my intuition again.
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Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
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& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
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« Reply #105 on: July 06, 2015, 09:06:07 PM »

SMiLE's original tracklisting:

Side A - Americana
Our Prayer / Gee
Heroes and Villains
Do You Like Worms
------------- / Barnyard
My Only Sunshine
Cabin - Essence

Side B - The Cycle of Life
Wonderful
Song for Children
Child is Father of the Man
Surf's Up

Side C - The Elements
I Wanna Be Around / Workshop
Vege - Tables
I'm in Great Shape / ----------------
On a  Holiday
Wind Chimes
-----------------------
-------------------------
Cool, Cool Water
Love to Say Da Da
The Elements - Earth (-----------------------------)
The Elements - Wind (-----------------------------)
The Elements - Fire (Mrs. O'Leary's Cow)
The Elements - Water (----------------------------)

Side D - Hawaii
----------------------------
----------------------------
---------------------------
Good Vibrations
(Hidden track: You're Welcome)

24 tracks, thats twice Pet Sounds 12. It would've been 60 minutes long, Brians true Teenage Symphony to God.
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« Reply #106 on: July 23, 2015, 06:09:35 PM »

SMiLE's original tracklisting:

Side A - Americana
Our Prayer / Gee
Heroes and Villains
Do You Like Worms
------------- / Barnyard
My Only Sunshine
Cabin - Essence

Side B - The Cycle of Life
Wonderful
Song for Children
Child is Father of the Man
Surf's Up

Side C - The Elements
I Wanna Be Around / Workshop
Vege - Tables
I'm in Great Shape / ----------------
On a  Holiday
Wind Chimes
-----------------------
-------------------------
Cool, Cool Water
Love to Say Da Da
The Elements - Earth (-----------------------------)
The Elements - Wind (-----------------------------)
The Elements - Fire (Mrs. O'Leary's Cow)
The Elements - Water (----------------------------)

Side D - Hawaii
----------------------------
----------------------------
---------------------------
Good Vibrations
(Hidden track: You're Welcome)

24 tracks, thats twice Pet Sounds 12. It would've been 60 minutes long, Brians true Teenage Symphony to God.

Nope. No evidence that a double album was ever considered. They'd never done anything like that before or after, the cover makes no mention and only lists 12 tracks, and honestly SMiLE becomes less than the sum of its parts if you include too much material. It's much tighter, more focused and more dynamic as a ~40 minute two-sided album than a 50~70 minute three or four sided one. Sure, a lot of good material gets scrapped that way, but ultimately He Gives Speeches, Dada, With Me Tonight etc don't add anything thematically to the album. Stuff like Look, Barnyard and IWBA aren't as strong and drag the music down. Beach Boys albums rarely ever crossed the 35 minute mark much less double that. Need I go on? Well, Brian is also quoted saying the original SMiLE would have been a two suite cantata. So..?

I'd say the real sequence would be closer to:

Side 1 (Americana and/or Pisces Age)
1-(Prayer) Do You Dig Worms?
2-Heroes and Villains
3-Cabin Essence (Taxi Cabber)
4-The Elements [it was only ever supposed to be 1 song, not 4]
5-Vega-Tables (Vegetable Fight)

Side 2 (Life and/or Aquarian Age)
6-Good Vibrations
7-Wind Chimes
8-Wonderful (Workshop/Ice Cream Man)
9-Child is Father of the Man
10-My Only Sunshine
11-Surfs Up (George Fell Into His French Horn)

It's my hunch that the Psychedelic Sounds skits would be on the album. Smiley Smile had goofy bits on it, these sketches were recorded with expensive Wrecking Crew musicians, and they tie into a lot of the themes of the album. Brian considered laughter to be therapeutic and enlightening in its own way too. It's not as weird an idea as it might initially seem. Give it a listen this way. Sounds a lot more focused, flows a lot better, makes more thematic sense, and again, it's much more likely SMiLE fit on a standard 45 minute LP
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015, 06:14:07 PM by Mujan, B@st@rd Son of a Blue Wizard » Logged

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Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #107 on: August 04, 2015, 05:07:24 PM »

Since this thread seems to heading in this direction anyway:

SIDE A
1. Do You Like Worms (3.29)
2. Heroes and Villians (2.51) (V1/Acapella V/Cantina/"Bag of Tricks"/"Children were raised"/"Stand or Fall")
3. I'm in Great Shape (2.17) (IWBA/WS/IIGS/BY)
4. Cabin Essence (3.31)
5. Wonderful (2.54) (inc. He Gives Speeches as insert)
6. Child is Father of the Man (2.52)
7. The Old Master Painter (1.54)

SIDE B
1. Good Vibrations (3.33)
2. The Elements: Fire (2.01)
3. Vega-Tables (1.57) (Psycodelic Sounds "Veggies Chant" excerpt/VT "Demo"/"Air Chant" excerpt)
4. Wind Chimes (2.41) (V/C/Piano bridge/"Underwater Chant" excerpt)
5. Surf's Up (3.43) (original "Demo" ending)
6. Prayer (1.06)

Might look like a mess from the notations - and of course I have a certain ego involvement - but I really think the sequencing works convincingly as a rather avant-garde 60's pop LP. Total time 35:16 - only major missing '66 tracking sections are "H&V Intro" (re-made in '67 as "Bag of Tricks"/"Fire Intro"), CFOTM original bridge section and "All Day".

EDIT: Oh, and "Look", "Holidays" and "You're Welcome", of course! Stupid of me - I have these as bonus tracks so managed to forget they were included in BWPS/TSS sequencing etc. I still think as full length tracks with no surviving vocals, or known connections to any of the titles listed on the "12 track memo" the first two at least would likely have gone the way of "Trombone Dixie" - but that, of course, is pure conjecture.

1-(Prayer) Do You Dig Worms?

Quick aside - why is there still any conjecture over the correct titling of this track? (Apart from "Do You Dig Worms" being a nice pun and rather hipper.) Not only is it called such on the much-maligned Dec '66 Memo but Brian explicitly states "Do You Like Worms" as the title during the tracking session for the verses (as presented on TSS Disc 3).
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« Reply #108 on: August 05, 2015, 07:52:13 AM »

In my opinion, I can't imagine that Brian would not have put Do You Like Worms and Cabin Essence side by side on the album. Listening to one right after the other sounds seamless to me.
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« Reply #109 on: August 05, 2015, 03:20:53 PM »

Try blasting straight from the final piano tinkle of DYLW into "I've been in this town so long". SMiLE has a surprising number of "natural fits".
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« Reply #110 on: August 05, 2015, 04:58:07 PM »

Maybe, but even the chord change from the final note of Worms to the first note of Cabin is natural.
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« Reply #111 on: August 05, 2015, 08:48:45 PM »

Try blasting straight from the final piano tinkle of DYLW into "I've been in this town so long". SMiLE has a surprising number of "natural fits".

Absolutely agreed! And I realize Like is the correct title over Dig. But as you say, dig is hipper. It makes more sense. It makes the title a clever pun not just a rhetorical Question.

CSM, I also agree with you that Cabin and Worms are "brother and sister songs." The two share a lot of similarities and supposedly Brian even switched choruses between them once or twice during the sessions. But while they're undeniably related, I don't think they work as well side by side. They are both standard pop song structure, verse/chorus/verse/chorus/fade. They keep Side One "grounded" between the more formless Heroes and Elements in my book.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
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« Reply #112 on: August 06, 2015, 06:16:35 AM »

CSM, I also agree with you that Cabin and Worms are "brother and sister songs." The two share a lot of similarities and supposedly Brian even switched choruses between them once or twice during the sessions. But while they're undeniably related, I don't think they work as well side by side. They are both standard pop song structure, verse/chorus/verse/chorus/fade. They keep Side One "grounded" between the more formless Heroes and Elements in my book.

I see what you mean but they simply fit too well together. I think that Heroes and The Elements seem formless because of how unfinished they were and, in the case of the former, because Brian somewhat lost the plot in his endless recordings. Indeed, Heroes on Smiley Smile doesn't sound formless and while the version on Smile would have been a whole different kind of thing, I would be surprised if it would have been haphazard. The edit of Heroes from the Smile era doesn't sound particularly formless to me either.
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« Reply #113 on: August 06, 2015, 01:05:45 PM »

CSM, I also agree with you that Cabin and Worms are "brother and sister songs." The two share a lot of similarities and supposedly Brian even switched choruses between them once or twice during the sessions. But while they're undeniably related, I don't think they work as well side by side. They are both standard pop song structure, verse/chorus/verse/chorus/fade. They keep Side One "grounded" between the more formless Heroes and Elements in my book.

I see what you mean but they simply fit too well together. I think that Heroes and The Elements seem formless because of how unfinished they were and, in the case of the former, because Brian somewhat lost the plot in his endless recordings. Indeed, Heroes on Smiley Smile doesn't sound formless and while the version on Smile would have been a whole different kind of thing, I would be surprised if it would have been haphazard. The edit of Heroes from the Smile era doesn't sound particularly formless to me either.

Personally, I think you need something between them to break it up. Otherwise they're almost *too* similar. The chorus of Worms is about killing Indians, then Heroes is about the old west. Cowboys and Indians. Cabin is about painting a serene landscape in the verses, then the train comes in with a vengeance on the choruses and ruins that natural tranquility. Apparently part of Fire is mirrored in Cabin, and I think that idea of manipulating/disrespecting nature is shared in Cabin and Elements. So these two songs fit together just as well with other tracks. And they both reference different forms of travel. Since Americana was to be a journey across America, I think it makes more sense to space that motif out a bit instead of use it up at the beginning and then never again.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
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« Reply #114 on: August 06, 2015, 09:32:12 PM »

Back to "Surf's Up" - I've been re-reading this thread from the top, and there's some interesting stuff in here.

My feeling - and it is just that - is that after the 15 (16?) December vocal sessions which [Siegel] "went very badly", Brian going in late at night to double-track the 'demo version' (as distinct to the CBS solo version) is in some way significant. Let's remember, this song was always somehow significant - in '66, it was the tune taped for 'Inside Pop', a TV showcase for 'the new sounds' and the coming album. In '67, it was exhumed for the Fall "Country Air reel" recording. Brian spoke about the track - sometimes dismissively - in a few different interviews in the following four years. Then, in '71, it was explicitly recognised as meaningful, as a lost opportunity, to the extent both Jack Reilly and Wilson (according to Reilly) considered its inclusion (as the titular song, no less) on their follow-up to Sunflower crucial to making the deal with the studio brass. The same could not be said, frankly, of "Child is Father" (coda aside) or "The Old Master Painter", or even the SMiLE originals of "Wonderful" or "Wind Chimes" (though, of course, versions of these were released).

Let's consider, also, that the structure of the tune (down to the one-and-done "canvas the town" refrain and wordless coda) remained identical in the two 60's recordings. Which isn't to suggest this - Brian alone at a keyboard - is how he initially intended to release the song (the Part 1 backing proves otherwise), but there does seem to be a suggestion that the naked quality of the second half was at least in consideration post 15th December '66. I'm also in the camp which posits "Talking Horns" stuff as being in contention for Part 2 - I have a personal mix in which the slightly discordant horns enter at the end of each line before "Surf's Up, mmm hmmm" and are, I think, very effective. Rather "A Day in the Life"-like and which required almost no cutting on my part to make the timing work.

This all conjecture, of course, but if evidence is lacking as to an intended "fully produced" rendition of "Surf's Up" for SMiLE proper, my contention is that rather more exists to suggest the opposite. The rush of "Child" choral vocals in the fade, maybe - could that be part of the '66 vocal sessions that didn't quite work out? - though I've written elsewhere about my scepticism over the Priore-advanced (?) theory that repeated musical and lyrical themes were to be a part of SMiLE as its creators conceived it. And note that Reilly himself has apparently taken credit for the (in my estimation, rather lame) "Their song is love" couplet that finishes the '71 version.

Apart from the Peabody Award stuff, and the Johnston firing issue, are there many BB-related Reilly claims that have been positively disputed by those who were there?

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« Reply #115 on: August 06, 2015, 10:06:37 PM »

Back to "Surf's Up" - I've been re-reading this thread from the top, and there's some interesting stuff in here.

My feeling - and it is just that - is that after the 15 (16?) December vocal sessions which [Siegel] "went very badly", Brian going in late at night to double-track the 'demo version' (as distinct to the CBS solo version) is in some way significant. Let's remember, this song was always somehow significant - in '66, it was the tune taped for 'Inside Pop', a TV showcase for 'the new sounds' and the coming album. In '67, it was exhumed for the Fall "Country Air reel" recording. Brian spoke about the track - sometimes dismissively - in a few different interviews in the following four years. Then, in '71, it was explicitly recognised as meaningful, as a lost opportunity, to the extent both Jack Reilly and Wilson (according to Reilly) considered its inclusion (as the titular song, no less) on their follow-up to Sunflower crucial to making the deal with the studio brass. The same could not be said, frankly, of "Child is Father" (coda aside) or "The Old Master Painter", or even the SMiLE originals of "Wonderful" or "Wind Chimes" (though, of course, versions of these were released).

Let's consider, also, that the structure of the tune (down to the one-and-done "canvas the town" refrain and wordless coda) remained identical in the two 60's recordings. Which isn't to suggest this - Brian alone at a keyboard - is how he initially intended to release the song (the Part 1 backing proves otherwise), but there does seem to be a suggestion that the naked quality of the second half was at least in consideration post 15th December '66. I'm also in the camp which posits "Talking Horns" stuff as being in contention for Part 2 - I have a personal mix in which the slightly discordant horns enter at the end of each line before "Surf's Up, mmm hmmm" and are, I think, very effective. Rather "A Day in the Life"-like and which required almost no cutting on my part to make the timing work.

This all conjecture, of course, but if evidence is lacking as to an intended "fully produced" rendition of "Surf's Up" for SMiLE proper, my contention is that rather more exists to suggest the opposite. The rush of "Child" choral vocals in the fade, maybe - could that be part of the '66 vocal sessions that didn't quite work out? - though I've written elsewhere about my scepticism over the Priore-advanced (?) theory that repeated musical and lyrical themes were to be a part of SMiLE as its creators conceived it. And note that Reilly himself has apparently taken credit for the (in my estimation, rather lame) "Their song is love" couplet that finishes the '71 version.

Apart from the Peabody Award stuff, and the Johnston firing issue, are there many BB-related Reilly claims that have been positively disputed by those who were there?



I think it's fair to say Surfs Up was a very important song to Brian, and why not? The title is the perfect ironic reference to their roots while being the furthest they ever got from them stylistically. Thematically, I think it ties all the other ideas in SMiLE together (one of the reasons I'm sure it would have been the last song.) And it's something that sounds amazing fully vocalized/orchestrated as well as solo at the piano. It's not my personal fave, but you could make an argument it's his crowning achievement as a musician.

I wouldn't be so dismissive of CIFOTM. It was abandoned because VDP (it seems) never wrote verse lyrics and the defining horn sound had already been recycled into Little Bird by that time. It's my belief the coda was a new '71 invention precisely because he wanted to save those epic chorus vocals in some way and discovered they'd work well in Surfs Up. I agree that OMP is a weak, throwaway track outside the SMiLE context, but Child could have been Cabin Essence-calibur if it was finished.

I'm not sure if I'm willing to accept that the naked sound of part 2 was intentional. I just don't see how that suits the song or fits the other complex productions on the album. But it's great to see another believer in this Talking Horns theory. Baring the discovery of some lost acetate or music sheet, I'm convinced that's as close to a Part 2 as we will ever get. Maybe some strings too as Brian had said in 2003 whose sessions were cancelled or lost as well.

Is it certain the sessions that went "very badly" were Surfs Up? I thought I read here that they were Wonderful vocals? I'm also very skeptical of Priore's theories, as well as many other older SMiLE myths/sequence ideas. The idea of repeating sections as you mention, and this baseless, misguided insistence that Side 2 would be an "elements side" in spite of the mountain of evidence that Elements was only intended as one four part instrumental not four vastly different songs that sounds terribly jarring put together. Not to mention Dada wasn't a track until April and there's no evidence that it was water back then.

Yes, Reilly is credited with those lyrics. I think they're lame too, as are the cloying "na na na" backing vocals. I know I'm in the vast minority, but I hated that '71 fade and don't believe it's vintage at all. Brian would have sang the main "their song is love" lyrics in at least one of those 66-67 versions instead of always just doing those "aah" backing vocals. It wouldn't make sense not to, or not to do the CIFOTM lyrics if they were also vintage.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #116 on: August 07, 2015, 01:40:11 AM »

Is it certain the sessions that went "very badly" were Surfs Up? I thought I read here that they were Wonderful vocals?

A quick look at TSS sessionography confirms that vocal sessions for both 'Wonderful' and 'Surf's Up' occurred from 7pm-10pm Dec 15th 1966. The 'Wonderful' vocals were - again, as recorded by the sessionography - backing vocals (apparently the yodels on the TSS mix). Of the 'Surf's Up' tracks, "involving all six Beach Boys", nothing more was ever heard. What seems more likely to have been the problematic part of the sessions?

Also, I would hate to sound dismissive of CFTOM. I think it's an extraordinary tune, in terms of composition and arrangement, and I fully believe that given the full lyrical/vocal treatment, it would have been the SMiLE track closest to Pet Sounds in terms of emotional heft and sweep. I also believe it was never fully worked out by BW/VDP - possibly because, like "Wind Chimes", it was an idea closer to Wilson's sensibility than Parks'.

Finally, I have absolutely come about to the idea of 'The Elements' as four separate, titled tracks. Evidence A: "Fire", the one concrete, fully-mixed track we have notated as "an element", is two minutes long. On that basis, "The Elements" would have been a 6-8 minute unbanded track, pushing the overall album - as it does in most fanmixes - over 40 mins in duration. This has little non-Dylan precedent in mid-sixties pop LPs. (The reason Dylan LP's were able to push the fifty minute limit was because the mixes were very bass-light.) Evidence B: The booklet, which includes "Vega-Tables" very clearly as an Element. I know people try to argue this was a misunderstanding on Holmes' part, or a typo, but that seems to me a deliberate misreading of the contemporary evidence to suit modern tastes. Evidence C: - and here we return to "Surf's Up" - Holmes is quoted as saying there is an additional Element featured in his "Vega-Tables" illustration. Look at it - there's a "hole in the ground", taps, picture frames with smiles, fields, etc. There is also a wall of Surf. Which is Up.
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« Reply #117 on: August 07, 2015, 10:36:23 AM »

Is it certain the sessions that went "very badly" were Surfs Up? I thought I read here that they were Wonderful vocals?

A quick look at TSS sessionography confirms that vocal sessions for both 'Wonderful' and 'Surf's Up' occurred from 7pm-10pm Dec 15th 1966. The 'Wonderful' vocals were - again, as recorded by the sessionography - backing vocals (apparently the yodels on the TSS mix). Of the 'Surf's Up' tracks, "involving all six Beach Boys", nothing more was ever heard. What seems more likely to have been the problematic part of the sessions?

Also, I would hate to sound dismissive of CFTOM. I think it's an extraordinary tune, in terms of composition and arrangement, and I fully believe that given the full lyrical/vocal treatment, it would have been the SMiLE track closest to Pet Sounds in terms of emotional heft and sweep. I also believe it was never fully worked out by BW/VDP - possibly because, like "Wind Chimes", it was an idea closer to Wilson's sensibility than Parks'.

Finally, I have absolutely come about to the idea of 'The Elements' as four separate, titled tracks. Evidence A: "Fire", the one concrete, fully-mixed track we have notated as "an element", is two minutes long. On that basis, "The Elements" would have been a 6-8 minute unbanded track, pushing the overall album - as it does in most fanmixes - over 40 mins in duration. This has little non-Dylan precedent in mid-sixties pop LPs. (The reason Dylan LP's were able to push the fifty minute limit was because the mixes were very bass-light.) Evidence B: The booklet, which includes "Vega-Tables" very clearly as an Element. I know people try to argue this was a misunderstanding on Holmes' part, or a typo, but that seems to me a deliberate misreading of the contemporary evidence to suit modern tastes. Evidence C: - and here we return to "Surf's Up" - Holmes is quoted as saying there is an additional Element featured in his "Vega-Tables" illustration. Look at it - there's a "hole in the ground", taps, picture frames with smiles, fields, etc. There is also a wall of Surf. Which is Up.

I could be wrong but as I understood it, the Wonderful sessions were what was planned and went "very badly" only in the sense that CBS couldn't use some fragmentary vocal snippets on their program. So, Brian did an impromptu performance of Surfs Up to give them usable material for their program.

Glad we can agree on CIFOTM. I'm starting to think VDP just pushed the song off to last and never got around to it, or purposefully refused to after Chocolate Shake's point about his anti-transcontinentalism was brought to my attention.

I think you're wrong about the elements. Fire is called Elements: Fire on the physical tape boxes and session recordings. Wind Chimes Dada and Veggies are not, and are listed separately on the original tracklisting. It's said the elements was to be an instrumental. Wind Chimes and Veggies aren't, and we can't be sure about Dada. When it was All Day, a Heroes fragment, Brian can be heard saying there would be a lot of talking in the pauses. On the psychedelic sounds bootleg, we have various underwater themed chants and vocal experiments, a breathing/laughing vocal exercise and veggie themed chants and comedy skit. Combined with the Frank Holmes book, I'm willing to concede Veggies is probably our best bet for Earth. But barring further evidence, I think those water/air skits are working ideas for the other two elements. Makes a LOT more sense than Wind Chimes and Dada. There's just the simple fact that an upbeat funny song, somber tranquil song, thunderous scary song and then mellow groovy song altogether just sounds terrible one right after the other. It was the worst part of BWPS and sounds just as bad on fanmixes that try it.

I don't believe for a second Surfs Up is water. Just because it has surf in the title? The song itself is about society breaking down but looking to the children for inspiration. The "canvas the town and brush the backdrop" references Old Master Painter. It's has nothing to do with water. Fire makes me visualize a raging inferno. Undersea Chant makes me visualize a busy ocean floor. Breathing makes me think of air and wind. Veggies...doesn't make me think earth, but with the other evidence that supports it, I'm willing to let it slide. Surfs Up and Wind Chimes don't do that. Just because they have surf and Wind in the title means nothing. Neither does a vague illustration in the book.

I also think if Veggies was an element, it was the one~two minute demo version, not the fully fleshed out, 3.5~4 minutes we all know now. It grew out of the elements to be its own thing. Fire was fleshed out into its own later when someone put the Heroes intro unto the front of it in the '80s. But that doesn't change the fact that the initial concept was a four part song. On my mix, I have it as Fire/Undersea/Breathing-Laughing which fades into Veggies as a separate track. Not an ideal scenario, but the best possible with the material available.

As I understand it, a LP record could go up to 45 minutes no issue. It's when you'd go past that when things pushed the realm of possibility/plausibility.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #118 on: August 07, 2015, 03:11:56 PM »

I could be wrong but as I understood it, the Wonderful sessions were what was planned and went "very badly" only in the sense that CBS couldn't use some fragmentary vocal snippets on their program. So, Brian did an impromptu performance of Surfs Up to give them usable material for their program.

Here's the quote from Siegel: "Earlier in the evening the film crew had covered a Beach Boys vocal session that had gone very badly." I wouldn't read that to mean "went very badly for the film crew in their efforts to capture usable footage", myself, but I suppose that's an interpretation.

Quote
I think you're wrong about the elements. Fire is called Elements: Fire on the physical tape boxes and session recordings. Wind Chimes Dada and Veggies are not...

Fair enough. But Veggies is called (or at least associated with) an Element in the booklet. So there's at least a strong suggestion that some parts of "The Elements" were to have vocals (at least in October, when Holmes got the commission and the lyrics from VDP). It would also imply the Elements were to be four different songs, not one unbanded suite, as just including Fire and VT we have three and half minutes of material. Adding in even a minute each for "Water" and "Air" means a track of close to six minutes - there is no precedent for this in Brian's work to that time, or for many years afterwards - though this isn't to say it's not possible, it just strikes me as unlikely.

So, on this basis - and if it was still the case in December - "Vega-Tables" being separately listed on the Capitol memo would also imply the Elements was, indeed, a sequence of separate songs (my work-around in my own mix, in order to remain true to the song titles given on the cover slick, is to kick off with "The Elements: Fire" and then link the three other tracks with excerpts from the Psycodelic Sounds chants).

I've written at length elsewhere about my own theory, as supported by Vosse, for instance, in the Fusion article, that up until about December 1966 SMiLE was [Vosse] "a totally conceived entity", and that it's about then things started fracturing. It is quite possible, then, that we're both right - and the original intention for "The Elements" became something else by April '67.

Even so, apart from Fire, what instrumental tracks exist that could plausibly be part of the kind of suite you're suggesting? "Dada", which turns up right at the end of 1966 as a Rhodes/piano "feel" called "All Day", is usually posited as a contender for 'Water', but I've always thought that was a bit spurious, and based largely on aspects of it turning up again in "Cool, Cool Water" quite a bit later on. Otherwise, we have "Look" and "Holidays", neither of which have titles with any Elemental collection, or which - to use your own argument - are associated on tape boxes etc with The Elements in any way. They're also both between 2.5 and 3.5 minutes long, fully tracked and (I believe) rough-mixed, right? So, again, with "Fire" and "Dada" that's a track pushing a good eight minutes at least. I suppose it's possible Brian only intended to use sections of each of these, but do we have any period evidence to suggest this?

EDIT: Sorry, I missed this:
Quote
But barring further evidence, I think those water/air skits are working ideas for the other two elements.

So Fire would be the only instrumental piece in the suite, or are we including Vega-Tables again?

But on the other hand, you also say this:
Quote
It's said the elements was to be an instrumental.
 

Not being difficult, but who said this, where, and when? I'm always wary of received opinion turning into fact with things like this. I know Brian referred to the "Air" element as being an instrumental thing "we never finished" (or did he? That's from the "auto-bio", right?), but what else do we have on the record about his or VDP's intentions for "The Elements"?

Quote
There's just the simple fact that an upbeat funny song, somber tranquil song, thunderous scary song and then mellow groovy song altogether just sounds terrible one right after the other. It was the worst part of BWPS and sounds just as bad on fanmixes that try it.

A matter of taste, maybe? I happen to think the sequence sounds pretty convincing in my mix.

Quote
I don't believe for a second Surfs Up is water. Just because it has surf in the title?

Again, fair enough. I'm just going from that quote of Frank Holmes', who at least was a participant of some description, and talked about the record with VDP if not Brian at the time.

Quote
I also think if Veggies was an element, it was the one~two minute demo version, not the fully fleshed out, 3.5~4 minutes we all know now. It grew out of the elements to be its own thing.  

Agreed. Part of the unwinding/reworking of the album I'm suggesting started to happen in early '67?

Quote
As I understand it, a LP record could go up to 45 minutes no issue. It's when you'd go past that when things pushed the realm of possibility/plausibility.

You're quite right, of course - happily conceded!


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« Reply #119 on: August 07, 2015, 07:54:42 PM »

I could be wrong but as I understood it, the Wonderful sessions were what was planned and went "very badly" only in the sense that CBS couldn't use some fragmentary vocal snippets on their program. So, Brian did an impromptu performance of Surfs Up to give them usable material for their program.

Here's the quote from Siegel: "Earlier in the evening the film crew had covered a Beach Boys vocal session that had gone very badly." I wouldn't read that to mean "went very badly for the film crew in their efforts to capture usable footage", myself, but I suppose that's an interpretation.

Im not claiming to be an expert on this particular piece of the puzzle, just saying that's what I heard.

Quote
Quote
I think you're wrong about the elements. Fire is called Elements: Fire on the physical tape boxes and session recordings. Wind Chimes Dada and Veggies are not...

Fair enough. But Veggies is called (or at least associated with) an Element in the booklet. So there's at least a strong suggestion that some parts of "The Elements" were to have vocals (at least in October, when Holmes got the commission and the lyrics from VDP). It would also imply the Elements were to be four different songs, not one unbanded suite, as just including Fire and VT we have three and half minutes of material. Adding in even a minute each for "Water" and "Air" means a track of close to six minutes - there is no precedent for this in Brian's work to that time, or for many years afterwards - though this isn't to say it's not possible, it just strikes me as unlikely.

I still think there's a decent chance Veggies wasnt an element. There seems to be an equal amount of contradictory evidence. The booklet is Frank Holmes going by VDP. It's possible VDP got it wrong or Frank did. Or Brian changed his mind as the song got recorded. The psychedelic sounds skits are decent evidence too, but Id say the tracklisting and other things like Brian fleshing it out to a full song in the months following counteract that evidence all the same. BUT...it's still the most plausible candidate for Earth so...I guess it just is what it is. An unsolvable puzzle. But I dont see how any of this implies a four song elements suite in any way. Its clear there's a lot of songs that are unquestionably Americana themed. And the second suite on BWPS was called "pure Brian" by Darian, it all flows spectacularly and is universally regarded as the best part of BWPS. Instrumentation matches, thematically those songs all build on each other. Then there's the third movement, the elements, which sounds totally disjointed instrumentally, lyrically and stylistically. When asked what allowed him to finish it, Brian said "a third movement." Implying there wasnt one before, and to further prove the point, he also is quoted saying the original SMiLE would be "less uplifting" and "a two movement cantata." Now...if I had to guess which movement wasnt vintage...well, it wouldnt be hard. We might disagree, but I think there's a stronger evidence for an Americana/Life sequence than Americana/Elements just by grouping the songs by instrumentation and lyrical content.

So what if it was 4~8 minutes long? This wasnt a single, it was a deep cut on a far-out, purposefully inventive psychedelic album. Unusual? Yes. But this was the time to push boundaries. And remember...Brian scrapped the song, ultimately. It's possible he was hung up by the length too, and that played a role in his decision to scrap it by the new year.

Quote
So, on this basis - and if it was still the case in December - "Vega-Tables" being separately listed on the Capitol memo would also imply the Elements was, indeed, a sequence of separate songs (my work-around in my own mix, in order to remain true to the song titles given on the cover slick, is to kick off with "The Elements: Fire" and then link the three other tracks with excerpts from the Psycodelic Sounds chants).

I've written at length elsewhere about my own theory, as supported by Vosse, for instance, in the Fusion article, that up until about December 1966 SMiLE was [Vosse] "a totally conceived entity", and that it's about then things started fracturing. It is quite possible, then, that we're both right - and the original intention for "The Elements" became something else by April '67.

Well, I'm intrigued by your idea of using the psychedelic sounds as linking segments at least. Thought I was the only one who believed in that.

I also agree with you and Vosse about SMiLE being more-or-less settled upon until January. Just looking at the sessionography supports that as well. Suddenly it's all about the potential singles, new songs which dont fit in thematically crop up (With Me Tonight, Dada, Tones, Dont Know) and wasting time on stupid novelty songs like the Jasper Daily tracks. Anyway, thats why I always get annoyed when people here dismiss ANY attempt at reconstructing the sixties album saying "Brian had no plan" and things like that. I don't buy it at all. There was more than enough material to fill an LP--and a structured, meaningful one too--it's just that certain songs were never finished. All we needed were a few vocals and final mixdowns.

I'd argue the elements as a concept was abandoned right after the Fire sessions. He wanted to scrap Fire...and you cant have the elements without that. Veggies, if it even was an element, branched off and became a complete song. A potential single even, when work stopped temporarily on Heroes and Villains.

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Even so, apart from Fire, what instrumental tracks exist that could plausibly be part of the kind of suite you're suggesting? "Dada", which turns up right at the end of 1966 as a Rhodes/piano "feel" called "All Day", is usually posited as a contender for 'Water', but I've always thought that was a bit spurious, and based largely on aspects of it turning up again in "Cool, Cool Water" quite a bit later on. Otherwise, we have "Look" and "Holidays", neither of which have titles with any Elemental collection, or which - to use your own argument - are associated on tape boxes etc with The Elements in any way. They're also both between 2.5 and 3.5 minutes long, fully tracked and (I believe) rough-mixed, right? So, again, with "Fire" and "Dada" that's a track pushing a good eight minutes at least. I suppose it's possible Brian only intended to use sections of each of these, but do we have any period evidence to suggest this?

EDIT: Sorry, I missed this:
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But barring further evidence, I think those water/air skits are working ideas for the other two elements.

I'd argue they were never recorded. Simple as that. Fire was the first, it caused fires in his mind, he abandoned the concept. Again, Id say the Psychedelic Sounds holds some invaluable insights into his working ideas for the others, but they never came to be. Glad we can agree Dada isnt it. I think Look and Holidays were scrapped. That seems to be more or less accepted fact. We could all be wrong, but Looks vocals were recorded over (and part of it was recycled into GV) and Holidays had none (and is a rather lackluster instrumental by Brian standards) plus they werent on the Tracklist. Pretty solid evidence by my book.

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So Fire would be the only instrumental piece in the suite, or are we including Vega-Tables again?

But on the other hand, you also say this:
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It's said the elements was to be an instrumental.
 

Not being difficult, but who said this, where, and when? I'm always wary of received opinion turning into fact with things like this. I know Brian referred to the "Air" element as being an instrumental thing "we never finished" (or did he? That's from the "auto-bio", right?), but what else do we have on the record about his or VDP's intentions for "The Elements"?

To be honest...Im not sure where that originates from. You could be right and it may be some oft-repeated talking point that then becomes "fact" due to everyone referencing it in an echo-chamber. I think a lot of similar half-truths/speculation have also become "fact" over the years, so there is a precedence for that happening. Priore, while Im eternally grateful for LLVS and his work spreading awareness...I think has done some harm in terms of the search for the "true" SMiLE. I think he let a lot of his preferences be cemented as unquestionable truth, and we could all do well to forget everything we think we know and just look at the primary evidence--mostly the music itself. Anyway, yeah Brian is quoted as saying Air was a flighty piano theme and Vosse and Catch a Wave mention recording water sounds for water. So there's that. As for the music itself...we have one undeniable element. One strong(ish) contender for the Earth element. And two skits which sound very much to me like working ideas for Air and Water, to be presumably rerecorded later. He could be wrong, but AGD has mentioned on this board that he asked somebody about the Elements and they said it was to be two variations of two seperate themes. AGD took this to mean Fire/Fall Break and Dada/Second Day would make up the elements. Me? I take it to mean the elements wouldve been half instrumental, half a capella. The instrumental being Fire and some unknown Earth (possibly Workshop?) and Undersea & Breathing skits.

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I don't believe for a second Surfs Up is water. Just because it has surf in the title?

Again, fair enough. I'm just going from that quote of Frank Holmes', who at least was a participant of some description, and talked about the record with VDP if not Brian at the time.

His insight is valuable, but remember this was Brian's show and he was twice removed from him. Hes getting his info from VDP who got it working with Brian. It's always possible he made a mistake or two, or assumed things he shouldnt have. He very well could have heard Surfs Up just the title name and thought it must be a song about the ocean and hence, water.

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I also think if Veggies was an element, it was the one~two minute demo version, not the fully fleshed out, 3.5~4 minutes we all know now. It grew out of the elements to be its own thing.  

Agreed. Part of the unwinding/reworking of the album I'm suggesting started to happen in early '67?

Sorta. More like part of scrapping the elements but reusing some ideas. Putting the album on hold in search for a possible single.

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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #120 on: August 07, 2015, 08:15:13 PM »

Excellent thoughts, Mujan - and may I just say, I'm thoroughly enjoying this back-and-forth. I think we agree on more than we disagree about. I'm intrigued by the AGD "two themes/two variations" comment - first time I've heard that. And "scrapping Fire led to scrapping The Elements" (or at least its original conception) is, likewise, a new idea to me. It seems plausible to me. Any chance you'd like to take a listen to my mix? Can PM you deets if so. I'm pretty proud of it, perhaps unduly so.

Only real qualification I'd make to your post above is that we know Frank Holmes knew more than the title of Surf's Up - and presumably saw full lyrics - as one of his booklet illustrations is "Two step to lamp's light".
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« Reply #121 on: August 07, 2015, 09:50:04 PM »

Excellent thoughts, Mujan - and may I just say, I'm thoroughly enjoying this back-and-forth. I think we agree on more than we disagree about. I'm intrigued by the AGD "two themes/two variations" comment - first time I've heard that. And "scrapping Fire led to scrapping The Elements" (or at least its original conception) is, likewise, a new idea to me. It seems plausible to me. Any chance you'd like to take a listen to my mix? Can PM you deets if so. I'm pretty proud of it, perhaps unduly so.

Only real qualification I'd make to your post above is that we know Frank Holmes knew more than the title of Surf's Up - and presumably saw full lyrics - as one of his booklet illustrations is "Two step to lamp's light".


As have I, and yes it seems so. Which is really nice, because I often feel like my views run contrary to what a lot of the old timers (if any of you are reading this, I mean that in an affectionate way) have decided upon and stuck to long ago. Or it seems like a lot of people take BWPS as the final word and consider discussing the what-ifs a waste of time or even an insult to Brian's current intentions.

I wish I could find where he said that, but if you asked Im sure hed confirm it. This was awhile ago--when I was still a lurker or else when I just started posting here but before uploading my mixes to the board. I forget where exactly he said it. The idea intrigues me too, especially since it would explain why Fire is instrumental but none of the other plausible elements contenders are. I think Workshop, perhaps with the Veggie Fight overlaid, could have been Earth and led into Veggies as a separate track. That's how I did it in my Aquarian SMiLE mix and I thought it sounded great.

Absolutely I would! Ill message you. Mine, it seems, have been taken down from youtube. But Im reuploading them to Vimeo now, actually. They'll be up by tomorrow if you want to listen to them.

Hmm...that's true. I forgot he quoted the songs under the pictures. Still...I really dont buy this Surf's Up as water idea. Veggies has some plausible evidence for it. Surf's Up? No.
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Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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« Reply #122 on: August 09, 2015, 08:11:38 PM »

I'm not sure why I've adopted the "Surf's Up" might be water position - I didn't hold it until the last couple of years, and it might be partly just a matter of me being contrary. It's also the case that my own sequence was put together originally in attempt to back up a developing theory that it was a number of issues arising in December 1966 - not least the return of the Boys, fresh from a smash "world tour" - that didn't only throw SMiLE into a confusion not present until that time, but derailed a project much closer to completion than is usually considered to be the case. So my decision to use, as much possible, only sections tracked until that time, with reference to any period information/quotes etc available, was to see how satisfying an LP I could manage within that framework.

It surprised me just how finished-sounding it is. There were some dodges - BWPS verses for DYLW, a compromise I wasn't all that happy about; Humble Harv fly-ins for "I'm in Great Shape"; "Cantina" and "Fire Intro" for Heroes. But just about everything else is properly tracked and pre-'67; and I was deliberately conservative when it come to the within-track sequencing. The vocal-less passages in CIFOTM is really the only place where uninformed ears seem to have noticed a particularly unfinished quality, and even then the music is so beautiful it doesn't appear to bother them.

But: what it did also mean was an album much more linear than most fanmixes, the TSS/BWPS assembly, or my own previous attempts. DYLW, CE, Wonderful, CFTM, OMP, GV, Fire, VT ("demo"), WC and SU and Prayer all have at least one full test edit made by BW in '66, and usually that initial full assembly stayed put, in terms of basic structure at least (GV is an obvious exception; Wind Chimes and CFTM got re-records and to a certain extent re-sequencing) until the new year, when parts of those songs started being pillaged and repurposed for the projected singles. So what does this tell us? Nothing concrete, of course, but a pretty compelling case can be made for twelve-stand-alone-tracks-of-2-4-minutes-apiece being the general plan in 1966; ie. the same basic approach as every BB's album that preceded and followed it into the seventies. It's the music and lyrics themselves - and the modular method of recording - that distinguish the tracks, not the form of the tracks themselves.

So: I found, having decided on splitting H&V into two (with the second part, IIGS, using IWBA/Workshop (notated as (Great Shape) on the tape box/session sheets) and the tracking sections for IIGS and Barnyard, knowing they were originally part of H&V and tracked as such) that natural groupings pretty organically occurred. I have always felt that DYLW - being American history, being silly in places, being deeply evocative and moving in others - was an appropriately out-there opening salvo for the album BW and VDP may have been trying to make. H&V/IIGS again, quite naturally and pleasingly follow. Cabin Essence seems to belong, thematically and musically, in this grouping. Wonderful's closing bass notes lead very pleasingly into its "male counterpart", CFTM. And CFTM's closing notes, in turn, into the "children's song" of YAMS/OMP - side one therefore closing up with the "Barnshine" fade referred to BW in the tapes as being [a] "grand finale".

All up, 18 minutes on the first side. Which leaves, by default, those remaining five tracks from the Capitol memo. GV kicks off Side B, as it did on Smiley - a slightly obvious placement, perhaps, but let's remember there was some conversation between Brian and Anderle (at least) about whether it was going to be a part of the record at all. So, "The Elements" - well, Fire, of course, and then - bearing in mind I'm making these decisions from the point of view of late '66 - VT seems plausible. VT, which is included as its own track on the memo. So we have "The Elements[: Fire]", then [The Elements:]Vega-Tables. What of Air and Water? Fade aside, Holidays doesn't sound particularly Air-y - at least not enough to take that particular leap - and never seems to have been finished anyway. Wind Chimes does, at least, have "wind" in the title, and one shorter assembly put together in '66 (the version with only the one chorus part). Which leaves one track left from the cover line-up, one with "Surf" in the title, a coda which rolls in "like waves", and which Frank Holmes seems to have vaguely suggested as being part of The Elements as outlined to him. Musically, the only other possible section tracked for this in '66 - and let's remember, the album was looking at a Christmas-period release right through to November/December of that year - was "All Day". I've already said I feel it's a pretty big stretch to assume this keyboard-feel was intended to be "Water" at the time. Prayer ("a choral amen-type thing to close the album" - Vosse) unlisted at the end.

I have used, as we discussed, "Psycodelic Sounds" chants to link these last four songs (excepting Prayer), though I'd be surprised if Brian and his pals mucking around in the studio late one November night were ever intended to actually be used on a Beach Boys album. So these were likely - if there was ever really an intention to use versions of them at all, which seems to be a particular and atypical indulgence of ours - going to be re-recorded by the Boys and employed either a) as I posit, to link the full 'Elements' tracks outlined above or b) as you suggest, used at least in part to be parts of a shorter "Elemental suite".

I think, frankly, the surviving record is more supportive of my interpretation than yours, at least if you give any credence to Holmes' titling of "My Vega-Tables - The Elements" in the booklet. If so, that means in October '66 - yes, The Elements was intended to include at least one fully conceived song (90 secs), with lyrics, alongside The Elements: Fire (2 minutes). Why not Wind Chimes (short version 2.5 mins) as the third? And, again, if so, by default "Surf's Up" - and that's not even taking into account Holmes' comment.

Anyway, that's my contention, even if I agree SU in particular doesn't seem on the face of it an obvious fit. Will PM the link to my mix later tonight, so at least you can hear for yourself how the sequence works as I've conceived it.
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« Reply #123 on: August 09, 2015, 09:01:33 PM »

I realise, re-reading the above, that I do seem to be - and probably am - in the old-fashioned "Elemental Side" camp. Maybe I'm an old-timer after all!

I guess it's just I can see good reasons why three of the songs from the tracklisting, at least, could have been intended for the Elements, and good reasons why the data we have suggests strongly that two of those twelve tracks named on the memo (given, one is just "The Elements", but then again, that is how Fire is uniquely notated on the session logs) were to be stand-alone, banded selections as part of that larger Elemental sequence. After that, it's largely my own conjecture, I grant you.

I would also point out that all named '66 "non-Element" contenders - excepting, perhaps, the problematic "GV" - fit happily on one 18-minute side of an LP. Unless you start assuming H&V was going to be 6+ minutes, "two-sided" etc, that the whole record was going to be full of "link tracks" and atmospheric sections - which I appreciate hugely as elements (excuse the pun) of your own mix, but I see almost no period evidence for - or that Brian had no intention to use the rough assembly structures he bothered to produce at the time, or always had the intention to do several sessions of additional tracking in '67... then the logical assessment is that parts of "Cycle of Life" were either intended to be part of the "first cantata", or "Look" was intended to be a part of the album proper against all evidence to the contrary, or that "Surf's Up" was to close the first side. Because if you group the surviving period assemblies/demo of CFTM, Look, Wonderful and Surf's Up, you're looking at around 12 minutes of material - well over half a side of a conventional mid-sixties pop LP, but well under an acceptable length as well.

Try juggling the pieces, as we have them, from 1966 and not end up with an "Americana Side" and an "Elemental Side", in terms of what was tracked and the cover slick tracklisting. I'm not saying such a split was articulated, or even fully intended, at the time, but if you're strict about what you actually use, and conscientious about your consultation of the Sessionography in TSS - as well as the Vosse and Anderle/Williams interviews, the "Humble Harv" Heroes demo etc - it's hard not to eventually come down to such a divide.

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« Reply #124 on: August 10, 2015, 01:23:05 PM »

I'm not sure why I've adopted the "Surf's Up" might be water position - I didn't hold it until the last couple of years, and it might be partly just a matter of me being contrary. It's also the case that my own sequence was put together originally in attempt to back up a developing theory that it was a number of issues arising in December 1966 - not least the return of the Boys, fresh from a smash "world tour" - that didn't only throw SMiLE into a confusion not present until that time, but derailed a project much closer to completion than is usually considered to be the case. So my decision to use, as much possible, only sections tracked until that time, with reference to any period information/quotes etc available, was to see how satisfying an LP I could manage within that framework.

Ill agree that SMiLE was much closer to completion than most people give it credit for. Seems like the conceptual work was laid out, all that was needed was vocals from the group, recording the rest of the elements, and making final edits of a few songs and a final mixdown of the album. Still a lot of work I guess, but the point is there was still a light at the end of the tunnel at that point until things mysteriously got unfocused and singles-oriented in January. Im actually not too familiar with Brian's test-edits for the songs (they should have made the boxset, damnit) but I think you're right to stick with them as much as possible.

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It surprised me just how finished-sounding it is. There were some dodges - BWPS verses for DYLW, a compromise I wasn't all that happy about; Humble Harv fly-ins for "I'm in Great Shape"; "Cantina" and "Fire Intro" for Heroes. But just about everything else is properly tracked and pre-'67; and I was deliberately conservative when it come to the within-track sequencing. The vocal-less passages in CIFOTM is really the only place where uninformed ears seem to have noticed a particularly unfinished quality, and even then the music is so beautiful it doesn't appear to bother them.

I felt the same way when I stuck with just the Captiol tracklist songs for my Olorin mix. I had always looked at the list before and thought it was rubbish, but actually working with it...it really does make sense and give you a finished album. The only stipulation I have is Great Shape as a full track. Unless there's a bunch of material we're missing like the vocal session and stuff, I just dont see it as a track. I dont believe 1 minute fragments would have made the cut like in TSS and BWPS, I think they'd be sections of the main tracks in '66. Everyone has to resort to BWPS or Smiley to fill in gaps, man, much less '67 sessions. Dont feel too bad about that.

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But: what it did also mean was an album much more linear than most fanmixes, the TSS/BWPS assembly, or my own previous attempts. DYLW, CE, Wonderful, CFTM, OMP, GV, Fire, VT ("demo"), WC and SU and Prayer all have at least one full test edit made by BW in '66, and usually that initial full assembly stayed put, in terms of basic structure at least (GV is an obvious exception; Wind Chimes and CFTM got re-records and to a certain extent re-sequencing) until the new year, when parts of those songs started being pillaged and repurposed for the projected singles. So what does this tell us? Nothing concrete, of course, but a pretty compelling case can be made for twelve-stand-alone-tracks-of-2-4-minutes-apiece being the general plan in 1966; ie. the same basic approach as every BB's album that preceded and followed it into the seventies. It's the music and lyrics themselves - and the modular method of recording - that distinguish the tracks, not the form of the tracks themselves.

I feel like I mislead people when I refer to my mixes as two-suites but Im not sure how else to phrase it. But let me make it clear I believe in stand-alone tracks too. When I say suites, I mean groupings of tracks that are musically and thematically related. Heroes, Cabin, Worms and Veggies share musical motifs and other ideas between them. They can all make sense within an Americana context. So thats a "suite." A side of vinyl. And Wonderful, Wind Chimes, CIFOTM and Surf's Up share the instrumentation of pianos/harpsichords and horns. The lyrics between each song build on one another and make for one powerful, overall statement on the nature of childhood, aging, nostalgia and innocence. Another suite or side of vinyl as you prefer. So, the general idea would still be the same as most Beach Boys albums, just with even more of a meaningful connection than usual between the songs on a side. Kinda like Today! but even more so.

Brian said 10 to 12 songs on the album as well, so that's another clue that some of the songs may have been longer than usual.  

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So: I found, having decided on splitting H&V into two (with the second part, IIGS, using IWBA/Workshop (notated as (Great Shape) on the tape box/session sheets) and the tracking sections for IIGS and Barnyard, knowing they were originally part of H&V and tracked as such) that natural groupings pretty organically occurred. I have always felt that DYLW - being American history, being silly in places, being deeply evocative and moving in others - was an appropriately out-there opening salvo for the album BW and VDP may have been trying to make. H&V/IIGS again, quite naturally and pleasingly follow. Cabin Essence seems to belong, thematically and musically, in this grouping. Wonderful's closing bass notes lead very pleasingly into its "male counterpart", CFTM. And CFTM's closing notes, in turn, into the "children's song" of YAMS/OMP - side one therefore closing up with the "Barnshine" fade referred to BW in the tapes as being [a] "grand finale".

I agree with Worms being first. I used to be against it, but the fact that Prayer fits with that "church of the american indian" chorus well, ties in with the idea that the original pilgrims came for religious freedom (and, hypocritically, denied that to the Indians) and the first lyric on Worms is "Once Upon..." convinced me it's first. The Rock, Rock, Roll lyrics too--it solidifies the idea that this is a rock album about america.

Never considered that CIFOTM was a male counterpart to Wonderful, but I agree they are linked. I just dont think they fit in well at all with the Americana songs. The instrumentation is totally different, and lyrically theyre not about America. They could be, metaphorically, but the other Americana tracks are much more overt about it. There's no question that those other four songs Ive listed are about America, so to me it doesnt then make sense that suddenly the last 3 are so much more indirect. I dont see My Only Sunshine as a children's song. I see it as a loss of faith, or a sun setting on one (astrological) age and heralding in the new. It could go on either the Americana or Innocence side. In Olorin I have it on the former and in Romestamo, the latter. I think it works either way--one of the few songs that do, along with Elements. Im leaning towards putting it on the Innocence side nowadays tho, because Surfs Up's "canvas the town and brush the backdrop" lyrics make direct reference to it.

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All up, 18 minutes on the first side. Which leaves, by default, those remaining five tracks from the Capitol memo. GV kicks off Side B, as it did on Smiley - a slightly obvious placement, perhaps, but let's remember there was some conversation between Brian and Anderle (at least) about whether it was going to be a part of the record at all. So, "The Elements" - well, Fire, of course, and then - bearing in mind I'm making these decisions from the point of view of late '66 - VT seems plausible. VT, which is included as its own track on the memo. So we have "The Elements[: Fire]", then [The Elements:]Vega-Tables. What of Air and Water? Fade aside, Holidays doesn't sound particularly Air-y - at least not enough to take that particular leap - and never seems to have been finished anyway. Wind Chimes does, at least, have "wind" in the title, and one shorter assembly put together in '66 (the version with only the one chorus part). Which leaves one track left from the cover line-up, one with "Surf" in the title, a coda which rolls in "like waves", and which Frank Holmes seems to have vaguely suggested as being part of The Elements as outlined to him. Musically, the only other possible section tracked for this in '66 - and let's remember, the album was looking at a Christmas-period release right through to November/December of that year - was "All Day". I've already said I feel it's a pretty big stretch to assume this keyboard-feel was intended to be "Water" at the time. Prayer ("a choral amen-type thing to close the album" - Vosse) unlisted at the end.

Sorry, but I really think "oh this has wind/surf in the title" is terrible evidence. I honestly dont understand this obsession with finding the elements among SMiLE mixers. Have you ever considered that MAYBE, just MAYBE...it wasnt recorded? Is that so hard to fathom? Im not trying to sound mean but I truly think you're chasing the moon with this one. It seems Fire was the first recorded, others were to follow, and a week or so later Brian got scared by the track and abandoned the concept. Makes a lot more sense to me than "there has to be Air! Lets shoehorn in this track as that because it has wind in the title!" Besides, while I agree SMiLE was more finished than many seem to think, that doesnt translate into "all the songs were recorded and ready." That's just your speculation.

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I have used, as we discussed, "Psycodelic Sounds" chants to link these last four songs (excepting Prayer), though I'd be surprised if Brian and his pals mucking around in the studio late one November night were ever intended to actually be used on a Beach Boys album. So these were likely - if there was ever really an intention to use versions of them at all, which seems to be a particular and atypical indulgence of ours - going to be re-recorded by the Boys and employed either a) as I posit, to link the full 'Elements' tracks outlined above or b) as you suggest, used at least in part to be parts of a shorter "Elemental suite".

I believe Brian was just using his friends to hear how some of his ideas sounded since the Boys werent back yet, but that he'd rerecord some of the better ones with them or the Wrecking Crew (as he did with Vegetable Fight and George Fell) for the album. I think the rough ideas for Air and Water can be found there, yes. Undersea chant, you could argue, grew into the Water chant for example. Tho the latter wasnt actually recorded until well after SMiLE. And it's not just the elements stuff. I think one or maybe two of those skits might have served as a "filler" comedy section at the end of one or both of the sides, or perhaps as lead ins to the two big showstoppers on each side, Veggies (w/ the fight) and Surf's Up (w/ George Fell.) We really cant say. I tried to ask Brian but he didnt answer me Undecided

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I think, frankly, the surviving record is more supportive of my interpretation than yours, at least if you give any credence to Holmes' titling of "My Vega-Tables - The Elements" in the booklet. If so, that means in October '66 - yes, The Elements was intended to include at least one fully conceived song (90 secs), with lyrics, alongside The Elements: Fire (2 minutes). Why not Wind Chimes (short version 2.5 mins) as the third? And, again, if so, by default "Surf's Up" - and that's not even taking into account Holmes' comment.

Anyway, that's my contention, even if I agree SU in particular doesn't seem on the face of it an obvious fit. Will PM the link to my mix later tonight, so at least you can hear for yourself how the sequence works as I've conceived it.

And I think mine is more accurate, once you drop this misguided idea that the elements must exist. The sad truth is, it was an unfinished song. People like yourself and Priore speculated that other songs must be the elements and stuck with that interpretation, and that leaked into BWPS and solidified this as fact to a lot of people. But BWPS also has the Heroes intro as part of Fire, one-minute Barnyard and Great Shape as stand-alone songs, and includes the scrapped Holidays and Look as tracks...so despite it being Brian, I really dont see it as reliable evidence of what a 60s SMiLE was. You're ignoring the Capitol tracklist (at least as reliable as the booklet if not more so) and the tape boxes and session recordings in your argument. And thats what SMiLE disagreements always boil down to. Using evidence that suits your argument but ignoring that which doesnt. That's why I advocate ignoring that as much as possible and just going by the music. And to my ears, Heroes/Veggies/Worms/Cabin and Surf/Child/Wind/Wonderful are undeniably linked. Sunshine and Elements and GV are more vague in their placement.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2015, 01:31:04 PM by Mujan, B@st@rd of a Blue Wizard » Logged

Here are my SMiLE Mixes. All are 2 suite, but still vastly different in several ways. Be on the lookout for another, someday.

Aquarian SMiLE>HERE
Dumb Angel (Olorin Edition)>HERE
Dumb Angel [the Romestamo Cut]>HERE

& This is a new pet project Ive worked on, which combines Fritz Lang's classic film, Metropolis (1927) with The United States of America (1968) as a new soundtrack. More info is in the video description.
The American Metropolitan Circus>HERE
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