TSS - All things H&V

[Jim V.]

Hey, so I figured this would be the thread to post in, but I gotta say the version of "Heroes And Villains" on TSS is probably the The Beach Boys version I like least. I think it's too long and unwiedly. I think either the version on Smiley Smile is the best, but the "cantina" version is also quite good.

I think a long version featuring "Great Shape" or "Barnyard" might have interesting, but to mix the Smiley Smile version with the cantina version I just think just drags it on too long.

[silodweller]

Hey all,
Disc One, track 22 (Heroes And Villains Sections: Bonus Track: Stereo)
Really amazing to hear it in stereo but I was wondering, does anyone know what the instrument is playing with the tack piano towards the end of the track?  Is it a organ of some sort?  It comes in at about 5 min 39 seconds into the track. 

[tansen]

Hey all,
Disc One, track 22 (Heroes And Villains Sections: Bonus Track: Stereo)
Really amazing to hear it in stereo but I was wondering, does anyone know what the instrument is playing with the tack piano towards the end of the track?  Is it a organ of some sort?  It comes in at about 5 min 39 seconds into the track. 

Sounds like an electric harpsichord.

[punkinhead]

Track 9 of Disc 2 of the sessions is H&V Mission Pak...question, why was it called this? I know (what I think is Brian) sings "happy happy mission pack." Is that why?

[Tilt Araiza]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_C._Page#Founding_of_Mission_Pak

A dried-fruit company with a jingle apparently famous enough for Brian to expect the others to know what he meant.

"Say the Magic words, say Mission Pak and it's on its merry way! No gift so bright, so gay, so right, give the Mission Pak magic way!"

[Nile]

Has anyone been able to isolate HV chorus vocals..??
I heard them in Beautiful dreamer for a brief moment and it occured to me that it would be great to have them , I mean acapella HV chorus!
help...

[Al Jardine: Pick Up Artist]

If you have UM...it's either 16 or 17...you can isolate them yourself. There's a few tracks that are layer + layer of the vocal multis.

Wait, no, that's just the verse, I think.

[AJOG]

I've been in this town so long, so long to the city, we've all had enough, of each fisticuff, and sunny down snuff i'm alright.....by the Heroes & Villains!

This really cracks me up! 

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Wait so - if the original structure of "Heroes and Villains" (Humble Harv vintage) was to feature "barnyard" as the fade, has anyone examined the possiblity that the 'great shape' verse may have been used recurrently as a chorus?

A few things: I don't think the demo suggests that Heroes and Villains was to feature Barnyard as the fade. I mean, he does stop with Barnyard but it is clear just from the things that he was recording that there was more to the song after that. What is interesting about the demo is that he says he hasn't finished Barnyard yet but that's basically what became the finished product. Maybe the melody was going to continue with more lyrics, a la He Gives Speeches. I don't see I'm in Great Shape working as a chorus and especially not when it was being singled out as a track on its own. Part of the problem with H&V from a single/commercial standpoint was that it really didn't seem to have a big hooky chorus a la Help Me Rhonda, California Girls, The Little Girl I Once Knew, Sloop John B. and Good Vibrations. Then again, neither did Wouldn't it Be Nice and God Only Knows.

I think it's pretty well accepted that GS was gonna be an interlude section similar to Cantina. I personally think Barnyard would be the fade but I think on Humble Harv Brian just calls it "another section." Yes, it's really sad to say, but I think Brian made a huge error in judgement picking H&V for the single, and for wasting like 3 months rewriting it over and over to make it more commercial at the expense of the entire album.

Yeah, and remember that in the "Part 1" mix of H&V there isn't a chorus at all. I don't think that Brian had even thought of a chorus for the song until around when he lifted the Bicycle Rider theme from Worms.

The way I've been thinking about it lately, I'm pretty sure that the so-called "Barnyard Suite', that being Great Shape, Barnyard, Old Master Painter, Sunshine, and Barnshine, may have been the original intent for H&V Part 2. In the demo, Brian hums the 'Heroes and Villains theme' (ba-babababa-ba-bababa-be-baaaaaaaa) before starting to play Great Shape, and now on the box that same theme ends Heroes and Villains proper. I mean, there's not any historical basis for this, really, except for the fact that none of the parts of the suite are long enough (in my opinion) to be songs in their own right, and while it hardly follows any sort of traditional verse-chorus song structure, it has a good enough flow for the B-side of a single. I could also see the whole suite being put under the catchall 'I'm in Great Shape' on the handwritten 12-song list, since we're all but sure that Brian didn't write the list they could have just called it by name given to the first section.

I could be wrong, of course. But it's neat to think about.

I agree. H&V, as it was initially conceived, would probably have been similar to Wonderful--no chorus, but a long interlude segment. The chorus only came later to make it more suitable for release as a single.

If you're referring to the flutter horn, I believe that wasnt intended as the end of the song back in the day. On the boxset, it's referred to as Prelude to Fade, and then there's a separate Part 1 Tag that's just the piano.

I kinda agree with your idea of GS being a Barnyard Suite of four pieces, kinda of a counterpoint to The Elements. I disagree though that OMP/YAMS would be part of that. I'm thinking it'd be either how it is on BWPS + Barnyard or GS/Barnyard and maybe two or three of the more tangential H&V pieces like All Day, Do A Lot and With Me Tonight. I think this would be your GS track, but NOT H&V Part 2, which from what I've read, would have been all those monotonous H&V chants and Gee put together and then the new False Barnyard fade.

That's got me thinking- maybe I'm In Great Shape was maybe meant to be a sequel or continuation to H & V. Possibly even including the "my children were raised...at three score and five" stuff to show that a lot of time has passed. He now has his own farm out in the "open country" and because of this idyllic country life, although he's old now, he's still in "great shape". Y'know probably a lot of our country's frontiersmen who pushed this country's European settlers westward probably did so to escape the law.

Possible. It could be something similar to Worms and Cabin Essence--similar in theme and structure, but with their own unique sound. Either way, without that GS vocal session we'll never know.

If you're referring to "Heroes & Villains (Alternate Take)" which appeared on the SMILEY SMILE / WILD HONEY two-fer, you'll find it on the A-side of the 45 single included in the TSS box set and as Track 2 on CD 2 of the TSS 2-CD set. It's now called "Heroes & Villains Part 1".

Check my old posts.  My guess is (and has been since about 1995) it was ALWAYS "Heroes And Villains Part 1".  Or at least the completed "Heroes And Villains Part 1" SONG (as opposed a reference title for a specific "Heroes And Villains" SECTION) was always that particular edit (minus the False Barnyard).  I think his plan for "Part 2" was all about the way the single would have been pressed:  Side one was Part 1 (twofer edit up through the explosion).  Then you flipped it over and side2 was "Part 2" (the chorus through the end of "our" single version).

I think he then scrapped that idea, added the verse to the top of that second half, and made THAT the single; one that would fit on one side of a single.

That is an interesting guess. I'm not sure I've got it correctly: You think that the actual 1967 single without the first two verses was planned as flip side of the single?

More accurately, I think it was planned as the rest of the song and because of the song's length, it would have wound up as the b-side when the song was split for the single.  At least that arrangement, or something very close to it.  I'm not sure if the actual recordings used for the final single were recorded by that point.

I think the A-Side would have had the chorus if anything. That's what people would be hearing on the radio. That's what had to sound catchy and melodic enough to move units for the single itself and the album. The B-Side would be the extraneous stuff. I guess it could still work nicely as one whole song split between sides, but the chorus had to come at the first half. The A-Side had to be commercial. End of story. I dont think H&V, at least the album cut (presumably the A-Side) would have the tape explosion if GS was still intended for the album. Reusing ideas like that wouldnt be right, it'd come off as laziness. On the B-Side tho, maybe.

Correct.  My guess was always that it was meant exclusively for the single, possibly to give "closure" to the a-side.  On the album, I think it would have still been at the end of TOMP.  I guess it could have been in both places on the albums tho (maybe one with and one without the sunshine vocals).  It's not like the album isn't crammed with other reoccurring musical themes.

No. NO. NO. Why would he reuse a fade like that? Again, it would just come across as sheer laziness and a waste of album space. I'm sorry, but I don't buy into this theory at all. There's certainly recurring themes and musical motifs, but there's a difference between that and, say, two songs having the exact same chorus and same fade. I think it's just a simple case of Brian wanting H&V to be the single but paradoxically insecure about its commercial prospects so he recycled some of the best pieces from other songs at the expense of the album as a whole. But that doesn't mean H&V would have had all these same sections that other songs did on the album.

Hey, so I figured this would be the thread to post in, but I gotta say the version of "Heroes And Villains" on TSS is probably the The Beach Boys version I like least. I think it's too long and unwiedly. I think either the version on Smiley Smile is the best, but the "cantina" version is also quite good.

I think a long version featuring "Great Shape" or "Barnyard" might have interesting, but to mix the Smiley Smile version with the cantina version I just think just drags it on too long.

Wow. I honestly thought it was too short when I first heard it, since I was used to 5~8 minute cuts of the song by then. I think on the real SMiLE it would have been maybe 4 or 4:30. I also don't think H&V would have had the Bicycle Rider chorus on the album. Obviously Mark and Alan weren't going for historical accuracy so much as recreating BWPS. I have to ask though, why for BWPS and TSS are Worms and Heroes next to each other? It just accentuates the stolen chorus. Another awful aspect of that sequence, imho.

HV on the box set is great, I prefer the stereo version. As it is, it beats the heck out of Hawthorne. The ending is the greatest surprise... fits perfect.

 I have a big problem with the box set mix though-

The volume of "Once a night..." is quite a bit louder than the verse preceding it. I understand how that part can be accented but the backing track is almost totally buried as it is without the vox getting too loud and interfering with it. It aggravates me that the trombone and snare are really low in the mix-

As it is, it beats the heck out of Hawthorne. I put the Swedish Frog vox underneath Cantina to make it more foaded up and less G rated- As the words "Dance Margarita don't you know that I love you" are sung, it sounds like there are strange sex noises underneath. It's for there to be a dark side to the SMiLE tracks.

I agree Swedish Frog sounds great there. Awesome way to use an otherwise extraneous H&V fragment. It makes the guys at the bar sound like a bunch of pigs too, which then makes me feel for the narrator, loving his innocent girl and wanting to take her away from such an unfitting place. The fact that she was later killed from living in such an environment really takes on an added emphasis then too. It really becomes a sad, yet upbeat song. I love it.

I have to admit that one of my few disappointments is in the structure of the vinyl 45. Mind you, it's got beautiful sound and great editing, and contains a lot of great parts, but...

What I always like best about H&V was that it was sort of an epic story. And it doesn't act like one on the single. It just sort of devolves into a bunch of nice musical bits that sound good, but...but...where's the story?

Time to cook up a new fan mix myself, I suppose...

I agree that there are definitely better ways to arrange the fragments than what they came up with for the boxset. I do think they got it about right to what Brian would have done though, but maybe that explains why he abandoned the concept--it just didnt sound all that great when all was said in done. Or at least, not as great as he wanted it.

I've gotta say, the early version outakes sessions (disc 4 track 24), possibly sounds more well put together than any other version. (except one awful fade edit in the middle). Some edits I've never heard before make perfect sense and have a fantastic feel to it. I instantly loved it, and it has this certain drive to the entire track that none of the others have.

I'll have to give it another listen. I honestly remember thinking it wasnt all that great. It's a damn shame that that's the only place you can hear the "three score and five" vocals on the boxset. I do remember that. What the HELL is up with that, by the way? Seriously, why is there no better version of that crucial lyric on this boxset? Just another important piece of the puzzle that was left off at the expense of a whole disc of near-identical GV sessions, I guess




Now, for my original contributions. I have a few questions to ask.

What's the best assembling of these H&V fragments you guys have heard? It's remixed differently on just about every release and fanmix. How long do you like it? Do you just include the usual bits or the more out there stuff like All Day and Do A Lot?

I'm thinking of trying a YoureWelcome/Verse/Cantina-Children-3Score&5/Verse/Great Shape/Prelude to Fade/Barnyard structure for my next mix.

What do you think Part 2 would have been? A direct continuation of Part A or a series of outtakes/chants?

Do you think Veggies would have come after it, like in Smiley? Or My Only Sunshine, which was apparently part of the song in the first session?

When, if ever, do you think we'll see a release of the new version from the Durrie Parks acetate that features the GS lyrics but H&V instrumentation? How does the knowledge that this exists affect your opinion on both songs?

[The Old Master Painter]

What was the "classic" structure of Heroes and Villains edits in 1966, and early 1967?

[The_Holy_Bee]

What was the "classic" structure of Heroes and Villains edits in 1966, and early 1967?

Simple answer is, there isn't one. Or rather, there don't seem to be any such edits surviving (unless you're including the Feb '67 mix originally released on the 'Smiley Smile/Wild Honey' twofer). There is a suggestion that track 24 of Disc 4 of TSS ("Heroes and Villains: Early Version Outtake Sections") is actually more by way of a rough edit than the 'outtakes' suggested by the naming of the track. It certainly sounds - to these ears - somewhat consciously sequenced. But that's subjective, of course.

Similarly, when the Durrie Parks acetates were described on these boards a couple years back by 'andy', apparently on a disc entitled 'H&V', an unbooted or released version of 'I'm in Great Shape' (with 'heavier instrumentation') begins:

'In two clearly spliced edits (speaking of which, I can't remember if IIGS had the tape distortion effect the earlier takes had, but if it did it was much, much more subtle), IGGS went directly into the harpsichord playing that's underneath "my children were raised, you know they...", from the official H&V single, but with the arrangement from H&V part 1 from the SS/WH twofer that goes into "healthy wealthy and OFTEN wise" (all with no vocals), then directly into the full instrumental arrangement behind "three score and five", and that then played out until the finish of the acetate.'

Really, the only real 'period evidence' we have is the 'Humble Harv' demo from Nov '66, in which the two first verses of 'H&V' lead into IIGS and then Barnyard. Of course, it's very likely - and indeed, implied strongly by Brian's comment of 'here's another section now' just before 'Barnyard' - that some or most connective musical tissue is missing from this impromptu rendition.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Was just about to head to bed (it's about 12.30 on Tuesday night here in the Antipodes) when a further thought occurred: combining the two period sequencings I referred to above, don't we have a pretty good suggestion of the intended structure of H&V circa Nov/Dec '66? (remembering we don't know quite when the relevant Durrie Parks acetate dates from):

[from 'Humble Harv':] Verse - I've been in this town so long/Verse - Once at night, Cotillion squared the fight/Flutter-horn transition/IIGS - Fresh Clean-Zen Air/[from DP acetate:] My children were born, they suddenly rise/Verse - At three score and five/[from 'Humble Harv', knowing the Feb '67 edit ended with a similar fade:] Barnyard to close.

This seems to incorporate all the 1966 instrumental sessions logged for H&V but 'Intro [Early Version]' (the section later re-recorded and, much later, re-used as 'Fire Intro'), and is in line with both period assemblies we have for the number before IIGS appears to have been broken off into a separate track. A 'Tape explosion' might have provided a transition out of either IIGS (as in the TSS takes) or 'Three Score and Five' (as in the Feb '67 version), or both.

[zosobird]

Was just about to head to bed (it's about 12.30 on Tuesday night here in the Antipodes) when a further thought occurred: combining the two period sequencings I referred to above, don't we have a pretty good suggestion of the intended structure of H&V circa Nov/Dec '66? (remembering we don't know quite when the relevant Durrie Parks acetate dates from):

[from 'Humble Harv':] Verse - I've been in this town so long/Verse - Once at night, Cotillion squared the fight/Flutter-horn transition/IIGS - Fresh Clean-Zen Air/[from DP acetate:] My children were born, they suddenly rise/Verse - At three score and five/[from 'Humble Harv', knowing the Feb '67 edit ended with a similar fade:] Barnyard to close.

This seems to incorporate all the 1966 instrumental sessions logged for H&V but 'Intro [Early Version]' (the section later re-recorded and, much later, re-used as 'Fire Intro'), and is in line with both period assemblies we have for the number before IIGS appears to have been broken off into a separate track. A 'Tape explosion' might have provided a transition out of either IIGS (as in the TSS takes) or 'Three Score and Five' (as in the Feb '67 version), or both.

does the audio of the Durrie Parks acetate H&V exist in any circles? I've read descriptions, but would love to hear it...

[BBs Footage Saga]

WHAT IS THIS SECTION? Apears on a lot of mixes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DpHg5Z1FPY

[BBs Footage Saga]

I found it

[Bicyclerider]

Was just about to head to bed (it's about 12.30 on Tuesday night here in the Antipodes) when a further thought occurred: combining the two period sequencings I referred to above, don't we have a pretty good suggestion of the intended structure of H&V circa Nov/Dec '66? (remembering we don't know quite when the relevant Durrie Parks acetate dates from):

[from 'Humble Harv':] Verse - I've been in this town so long/Verse - Once at night, Cotillion squared the fight/Flutter-horn transition/IIGS - Fresh Clean-Zen Air/[from DP acetate:] My children were born, they suddenly rise/Verse - At three score and five/[from 'Humble Harv', knowing the Feb '67 edit ended with a similar fade:] Barnyard to close.

This seems to incorporate all the 1966 instrumental sessions logged for H&V but 'Intro [Early Version]' (the section later re-recorded and, much later, re-used as 'Fire Intro'), and is in line with both period assemblies we have for the number before IIGS appears to have been broken off into a separate track. A 'Tape explosion' might have provided a transition out of either IIGS (as in the TSS takes) or 'Three Score and Five' (as in the Feb '67 version), or both.

The intro early version was logged as Heroes and Villains Part 3 - assuming IIGS was Part 2, then the "intro" then it would follow it and precede my children were raised.  Of course by mid December when Part 3 was recorded IIGS may have already been rejected as part 2 and cantina taken it's place.  Also you don't have an a capella verse, which I believe Brian would have included in any final version, as he did in the Feb cantina version and the eventual single.  It would fit best after the verses and before IIGS (as it did in February after the verses and before cantina).

[}{eywood]

The funniest thing is Track 20 on Disc 2 of the box, 'Heroes And Villains: Piano Theme' at about 1:13: Kiss'  'I was made for loving you', anyone? Hahaha!

You're a few decades late to discover that!

Well, I have got (erhm, let's say 'heard' for legal reasons) pretty much every BB bootleg there are (except a lot of the redundant live stuff which I don't really care for), but I guess I must have missed that one
Funny, nevertheless

I wasn't referring to any bootleg - that melody line is present in about every incarnation of the BR theme, including the 1967 single version, where somebody sings "do - do - do - do-do" to it, and in DYLW somebody sings "ba - ba - ba...", and the fuzz bass plays that line, too.  Actually it is probably an unconscious lift by Kiss.

This was written by Paul Stanley & Desmond Child.  I'd put the blame squarely on Desmond