TSS - All things H&V

[Paul2010]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I don't think the CD 4 HAV is an actual mix...it's more a compilation of rough mono mixes (also found on UM17 I thought).

[desmondo]

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I don't think the CD 4 HAV is an actual mix...it's more a compilation of rough mono mixes (also found on UM17 I thought).

I think its a test mix by Brian in early 67

[Matt Bielewicz]

Er... I thought it was a mix of the two. A 2011 edit of 1967 mix pieces. And taken, according to Jon Hunt, directly from the mix attempts on SOT!

So the internal structure of the individual bits are Brian's choices and mix, but the order in which those bits appear... er... may not be.

...I think.

[quiet wibbling sounds are heard in the distance as Matt leaves the thread]

[runnersdialzero]

But then WHY NOT TAKE 5 MINUTES AND RECORD A LEAD VOCAL ON SOMETHING THAT WAS ALREADY FINISHED!?!!?

Okay, where did you find the working title of the Smile box set? And why are you posting it here? You're in deep sh*t now, I hope you know.

[tansen]

The funniest thing is Track 20 on Disc 2 of the box, 'Heroes And Villains: Piano Theme' at about 1:13: Kiss'  'I was made for loving you', anyone? Hahaha!

You're a few decades late to discover that!

Well, I have got (erhm, let's say 'heard' for legal reasons) pretty much every BB bootleg there are (except a lot of the redundant live stuff which I don't really care for), but I guess I must have missed that one
Funny, nevertheless

I wasn't referring to any bootleg - that melody line is present in about every incarnation of the BR theme, including the 1967 single version, where somebody sings "do - do - do - do-do" to it, and in DYLW somebody sings "ba - ba - ba...", and the fuzz bass plays that line, too.  Actually it is probably an unconscious lift by Kiss.

I never noticed it before, and I'm curious where on the H&V single it is. I heard it clearly on DYLW (Track 5 of Disc 3) now though.

Well, it's in the "chorus" of the H&V single of course. I think it's Carl do-do-do-ing it. It is much more obvious though in the first section of the 93 H&V sections mix where Al or possibly Brian goes ba-ba.

If you are referring to the 'ba-ba-ba-ba-babababa-ba' being the melodyline, we are talking about different ones. Al/Brian is doing the rhythm of the Kiss melody, but not the same notes as they do on the Piano theme, and DYLW D3T5.

[homeontherange]

The funniest thing is Track 20 on Disc 2 of the box, 'Heroes And Villains: Piano Theme' at about 1:13: Kiss'  'I was made for loving you', anyone? Hahaha!

You're a few decades late to discover that!

Well, I have got (erhm, let's say 'heard' for legal reasons) pretty much every BB bootleg there are (except a lot of the redundant live stuff which I don't really care for), but I guess I must have missed that one
Funny, nevertheless

I wasn't referring to any bootleg - that melody line is present in about every incarnation of the BR theme, including the 1967 single version, where somebody sings "do - do - do - do-do" to it, and in DYLW somebody sings "ba - ba - ba...", and the fuzz bass plays that line, too.  Actually it is probably an unconscious lift by Kiss.

I never noticed it before, and I'm curious where on the H&V single it is. I heard it clearly on DYLW (Track 5 of Disc 3) now though.

Well, it's in the "chorus" of the H&V single of course. I think it's Carl do-do-do-ing it. It is much more obvious though in the first section of the 93 H&V sections mix where Al or possibly Brian goes ba-ba.

If you are referring to the 'ba-ba-ba-ba-babababa-ba' being the melodyline, we are talking about different ones. Al/Brian is doing the rhythm of the Kiss melody, but not the same notes as they do on the Piano theme, and DYLW D3T5.

It's not in Heroes And Villains, but in the Bicycle Rider chorus. The fuzz bass is playing it. This is a part which most fanmixes and BWPS just skipped, while it's one of my favourite melodies of Smile. That fuzz bass adds so many interesting harmonies by staying with the same melody when the vocals change chord. In SOT it was Bicycle Rider overdubs 1-3, where part 1 had the most prominent bass. Now you can hear it much better, thanks to Mark and Alan.

[tansen]

The funniest thing is Track 20 on Disc 2 of the box, 'Heroes And Villains: Piano Theme' at about 1:13: Kiss'  'I was made for loving you', anyone? Hahaha!

You're a few decades late to discover that!

Well, I have got (erhm, let's say 'heard' for legal reasons) pretty much every BB bootleg there are (except a lot of the redundant live stuff which I don't really care for), but I guess I must have missed that one
Funny, nevertheless

I wasn't referring to any bootleg - that melody line is present in about every incarnation of the BR theme, including the 1967 single version, where somebody sings "do - do - do - do-do" to it, and in DYLW somebody sings "ba - ba - ba...", and the fuzz bass plays that line, too.  Actually it is probably an unconscious lift by Kiss.

I never noticed it before, and I'm curious where on the H&V single it is. I heard it clearly on DYLW (Track 5 of Disc 3) now though.

Well, it's in the "chorus" of the H&V single of course. I think it's Carl do-do-do-ing it. It is much more obvious though in the first section of the 93 H&V sections mix where Al or possibly Brian goes ba-ba.

If you are referring to the 'ba-ba-ba-ba-babababa-ba' being the melodyline, we are talking about different ones. Al/Brian is doing the rhythm of the Kiss melody, but not the same notes as they do on the Piano theme, and DYLW D3T5.

It's not in Heroes And Villains, but in the Bicycle Rider chorus. The fuzz bass is playing it. This is a part which most fanmixes and BWPS just skipped, while it's one of my favourite melodies of Smile. That fuzz bass adds so many interesting harmonies by staying with the same melody when the vocals change chord. In SOT it was Bicycle Rider overdubs 1-3, where part 1 had the most prominent bass. Now you can hear it much better, thanks to Mark and Alan.

Yup, it's quite evident on SOT. But that melody, which is the same as the one on DYLW, and the Piano theme from TSS is not the same as the 'ba-ba-ba' thing, that was my point.
And I agree, it's an awesome harmony to the main Bicycle Rider melody, and still funny that Kiss had a huge hit with that very same melody (and rhythm) in the 80s

[desmondo]

Guys - I have done a side by side comparison which may aid discussion - please let me know of any corrections you may have

http://www.zshare.net/download/958293912732c065/

Sorry could upload it direct - if you can please feel free

[The Demon]

"Organ Waltz" really reminds me of Pere Ubu.

[Mac the Hat]

I don't think I've ever heard the whiste/dum dum dum part added to the end of the dum dum dum heroes and villains part. It seems a natural connection. If that makes no sense, I'll add some track times.

[runnersdialzero]

I've never heard a mix of "Heroes And Villains" that didn't need the snare to come up a lot. sh*t makes me want to jam a screwdriver into my ears out of frustration.

[tansen]

I've never heard a mix of "Heroes And Villains" that didn't need the snare to come up a lot. feces makes me want to jam a screwdriver into my ears out of frustration.

Think the snare-level is just fine in the new mix on CD1. Never been a big fan of having the snare loud in mixes though.

[onkster]

I have to admit that one of my few disappointments is in the structure of the vinyl 45. Mind you, it's got beautiful sound and great editing, and contains a lot of great parts, but...

What I always like best about H&V was that it was sort of an epic story. And it doesn't act like one on the single. It just sort of devolves into a bunch of nice musical bits that sound good, but...but...where's the story?

Time to cook up a new fan mix myself, I suppose...

[Reverend Rock]

Time to cook up a new fan mix myself, I suppose...

They're addicting, aren't they?  I've been revising a couple of mine lately.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Am I missing something or is there no version of the box set of the original backing verse paired with vocals, like the one we have on the Smiley Smile two-fer bonus tracks?

[sly74]

I've never heard a mix of "Heroes And Villains" that didn't need the snare to come up a lot. feces makes me want to jam a screwdriver into my ears out of frustration.

Think the snare-level is just fine in the new mix on CD1. Never been a big fan of having the snare loud in mixes though.

I think the Pt. 1, the vintage mix same as on the two-fer is better. On any others the rhythm tracks are too low. Need more punch.

[Roger Ryan]

Am I missing something or is there no version of the box set of the original backing verse paired with vocals, like the one we have on the Smiley Smile two-fer bonus tracks?

If you're referring to "Heroes & Villains (Alternate Take)" which appeared on the SMILEY SMILE / WILD HONEY two-fer, you'll find it on the A-side of the 45 single included in the TSS box set and as Track 2 on CD 2 of the TSS 2-CD set. It's now called "Heroes & Villains Part 1".

[Shane]

I'm listening to CD 4 track 24 as I write this.  You guys are right about this version... it struck me as soon as I heard it... it's really good.  There's a section I've never heard anywhere else that pops up at the 1:13 mark.  It has the (previously) a capella "dixieland band" vocals, but this time the verse backing track roars behind it, creating a moment of sublime kickass.  At the end of this section, there is a somewhat abrupt fade-out, and when the music kicks back in, the audio quality has significantly changed for the better... it sounds like stuff taken from multi-track masters.   I believe this is where this original mix ends, and random "sections" are then lined up for the rest of the track.

[linusoli]

Wait so - if the original structure of "Heroes and Villains" (Humble Harv vintage) was to feature "barnyard" as the fade, has anyone examined the possiblity that the 'great shape' verse may have been used recurrently as a chorus?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Wait so - if the original structure of "Heroes and Villains" (Humble Harv vintage) was to feature "barnyard" as the fade, has anyone examined the possiblity that the 'great shape' verse may have been used recurrently as a chorus?

A few things: I don't think the demo suggests that Heroes and Villains was to feature Barnyard as the fade. I mean, he does stop with Barnyard but it is clear just from the things that he was recording that there was more to the song after that. What is interesting about the demo is that he says he hasn't finished Barnyard yet but that's basically what became the finished product. Maybe the melody was going to continue with more lyrics, a la He Gives Speeches. I don't see I'm in Great Shape working as a chorus and especially not when it was being singled out as a track on its own. Part of the problem with H&V from a single/commercial standpoint was that it really didn't seem to have a big hooky chorus a la Help Me Rhonda, California Girls, The Little Girl I Once Knew, Sloop John B. and Good Vibrations. Then again, neither did Wouldn't it Be Nice and God Only Knows.

[tansen]

-

[Chris Brown]

Interesting to see that nobody has mentioned (at least not here) that Carl sings a lot of the lead on Heroes and Villains: Early Version Outtake Sessions on Disc 4 of the Boxset.

Ummm...what?

All I hear is Brian and Mike (more of him than on any released version), but no Carl as far as I can tell.

[sly74]

Interesting to see that nobody has mentioned (at least not here) that Carl sings a lot of the lead on Heroes and Villains: Early Version Outtake Sessions on Disc 4 of the Boxset.

Ummm...what?

All I hear is Brian and Mike (more of him than on any released version), but no Carl as far as I can tell.

Same here. Carl??

[The Demon]

Wait so - if the original structure of "Heroes and Villains" (Humble Harv vintage) was to feature "barnyard" as the fade, has anyone examined the possiblity that the 'great shape' verse may have been used recurrently as a chorus?

A few things: I don't think the demo suggests that Heroes and Villains was to feature Barnyard as the fade.

I think the "Barnyard" as fade theory comes from the fact that the backing track for "Barnyard" fades out.  But is there a reason to believe the track was actually recorded while Brian still saw it as a part of "Heroes"?

Same goes for "Great Shape."  I don't see that as a chorus at all.  It makes sense as part of "Heroes," though, or even where it is on BWPS--"I Wanna Be Around"/"Friday Night" is a two-part configuration with a cover of an old love song just like "Old Master Painter"/"Sunshine," and "OMP" had the "Heroes" bit tacked on just like "Great Shape" can be attached to "I Wanna Be Around."

[trismegistus]

Same goes for "Great Shape."  I don't see that as a chorus at all. 

Yeah, and remember that in the "Part 1" mix of H&V there isn't a chorus at all. I don't think that Brian had even thought of a chorus for the song until around when he lifted the Bicycle Rider theme from Worms.

The way I've been thinking about it lately, I'm pretty sure that the so-called "Barnyard Suite', that being Great Shape, Barnyard, Old Master Painter, Sunshine, and Barnshine, may have been the original intent for H&V Part 2. In the demo, Brian hums the 'Heroes and Villains theme' (ba-babababa-ba-bababa-be-baaaaaaaa) before starting to play Great Shape, and now on the box that same theme ends Heroes and Villains proper. I mean, there's not any historical basis for this, really, except for the fact that none of the parts of the suite are long enough (in my opinion) to be songs in their own right, and while it hardly follows any sort of traditional verse-chorus song structure, it has a good enough flow for the B-side of a single. I could also see the whole suite being put under the catchall 'I'm in Great Shape' on the handwritten 12-song list, since we're all but sure that Brian didn't write the list they could have just called it by name given to the first section.

I could be wrong, of course. But it's neat to think about.