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Author Topic: TSS - All things H&V  (Read 26276 times)
desmondo
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« Reply #25 on: November 07, 2011, 03:58:55 AM »

I've gotta say, the early version outakes sessions (disc 4 track 24), possibly sounds more well put together than any other version. (except one awful fade edit in the middle). Some edits I've never heard before make perfect sense and have a fantastic feel to it. I instantly loved it, and it has this certain drive to the entire track that none of the others have.

I came on to this thread to post exactly the same thing.  That might just be the best H&V running order that I've ever heard.  Sound quality for the mix isn't the greatest (is some of it acetate-sourced?), but, man, I love this version.  I wonder why it's buried at the end of Disc 4 instead of with the rest of H&V on Disc 2.  Huh

The structure of CD4 version from Jan/Feb 67 is as follows

1. Normal first verse although the lead vocal sounds quite laid back ( more than normal

2. Whistle/Dum Dum section

3. My Children were raised accapella with Often wise/piano section

4. Wordless vocal verse

5. In the Cantina

6. How I love my girl (Gee)

7. Dit Dit accapella H&V with handclaps and the one/two note bass line

8. Heroes & Villains accapella - with the clip clop thing

9 False Barnyard with hum dum vocals

I think thats it
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Paul2010
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« Reply #26 on: November 07, 2011, 04:24:43 AM »

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I don't think the CD 4 HAV is an actual mix...it's more a compilation of rough mono mixes (also found on UM17 I thought).
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desmondo
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« Reply #27 on: November 07, 2011, 04:26:32 AM »

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but I don't think the CD 4 HAV is an actual mix...it's more a compilation of rough mono mixes (also found on UM17 I thought).

I think its a test mix by Brian in early 67
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Matt Bielewicz
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« Reply #28 on: November 07, 2011, 04:46:49 AM »

Er... I thought it was a mix of the two. A 2011 edit of 1967 mix pieces. And taken, according to Jon Hunt, directly from the mix attempts on SOT!

So the internal structure of the individual bits are Brian's choices and mix, but the order in which those bits appear... er... may not be.

...I think.

[quiet wibbling sounds are heard in the distance as Matt leaves the thread]
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runnersdialzero
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« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2011, 06:44:29 AM »

But then WHY NOT TAKE 5 MINUTES AND RECORD A LEAD VOCAL ON SOMETHING THAT WAS ALREADY FINISHED!?!!?

Okay, where did you find the working title of the Smile box set? And why are you posting it here? You're in deep sh*t now, I hope you know.
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tansen
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« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2011, 08:04:47 AM »

The funniest thing is Track 20 on Disc 2 of the box, 'Heroes And Villains: Piano Theme' at about 1:13: Kiss'  'I was made for loving you', anyone? Hahaha!

You're a few decades late to discover that! Smiley

Well, I have got (erhm, let's say 'heard' for legal reasons) pretty much every BB bootleg there are (except a lot of the redundant live stuff which I don't really care for), but I guess I must have missed that one Smiley
Funny, nevertheless :D

I wasn't referring to any bootleg - that melody line is present in about every incarnation of the BR theme, including the 1967 single version, where somebody sings "do - do - do - do-do" to it, and in DYLW somebody sings "ba - ba - ba...", and the fuzz bass plays that line, too.  Actually it is probably an unconscious lift by Kiss.


I never noticed it before, and I'm curious where on the H&V single it is. I heard it clearly on DYLW (Track 5 of Disc 3) now though.

Well, it's in the "chorus" of the H&V single of course. I think it's Carl do-do-do-ing it. Smiley It is much more obvious though in the first section of the 93 H&V sections mix where Al or possibly Brian goes ba-ba.

If you are referring to the 'ba-ba-ba-ba-babababa-ba' being the melodyline, we are talking about different ones. Al/Brian is doing the rhythm of the Kiss melody, but not the same notes as they do on the Piano theme, and DYLW D3T5.
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homeontherange
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« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2011, 09:21:03 AM »

The funniest thing is Track 20 on Disc 2 of the box, 'Heroes And Villains: Piano Theme' at about 1:13: Kiss'  'I was made for loving you', anyone? Hahaha!

You're a few decades late to discover that! Smiley

Well, I have got (erhm, let's say 'heard' for legal reasons) pretty much every BB bootleg there are (except a lot of the redundant live stuff which I don't really care for), but I guess I must have missed that one Smiley
Funny, nevertheless :D

I wasn't referring to any bootleg - that melody line is present in about every incarnation of the BR theme, including the 1967 single version, where somebody sings "do - do - do - do-do" to it, and in DYLW somebody sings "ba - ba - ba...", and the fuzz bass plays that line, too.  Actually it is probably an unconscious lift by Kiss.


I never noticed it before, and I'm curious where on the H&V single it is. I heard it clearly on DYLW (Track 5 of Disc 3) now though.

Well, it's in the "chorus" of the H&V single of course. I think it's Carl do-do-do-ing it. Smiley It is much more obvious though in the first section of the 93 H&V sections mix where Al or possibly Brian goes ba-ba.

If you are referring to the 'ba-ba-ba-ba-babababa-ba' being the melodyline, we are talking about different ones. Al/Brian is doing the rhythm of the Kiss melody, but not the same notes as they do on the Piano theme, and DYLW D3T5.


It's not in Heroes And Villains, but in the Bicycle Rider chorus. The fuzz bass is playing it. This is a part which most fanmixes and BWPS just skipped, while it's one of my favourite melodies of Smile. That fuzz bass adds so many interesting harmonies by staying with the same melody when the vocals change chord. In SOT it was Bicycle Rider overdubs 1-3, where part 1 had the most prominent bass. Now you can hear it much better, thanks to Mark and Alan.
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tansen
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« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2011, 09:30:06 AM »

The funniest thing is Track 20 on Disc 2 of the box, 'Heroes And Villains: Piano Theme' at about 1:13: Kiss'  'I was made for loving you', anyone? Hahaha!

You're a few decades late to discover that! Smiley

Well, I have got (erhm, let's say 'heard' for legal reasons) pretty much every BB bootleg there are (except a lot of the redundant live stuff which I don't really care for), but I guess I must have missed that one Smiley
Funny, nevertheless :D

I wasn't referring to any bootleg - that melody line is present in about every incarnation of the BR theme, including the 1967 single version, where somebody sings "do - do - do - do-do" to it, and in DYLW somebody sings "ba - ba - ba...", and the fuzz bass plays that line, too.  Actually it is probably an unconscious lift by Kiss.


I never noticed it before, and I'm curious where on the H&V single it is. I heard it clearly on DYLW (Track 5 of Disc 3) now though.

Well, it's in the "chorus" of the H&V single of course. I think it's Carl do-do-do-ing it. Smiley It is much more obvious though in the first section of the 93 H&V sections mix where Al or possibly Brian goes ba-ba.

If you are referring to the 'ba-ba-ba-ba-babababa-ba' being the melodyline, we are talking about different ones. Al/Brian is doing the rhythm of the Kiss melody, but not the same notes as they do on the Piano theme, and DYLW D3T5.


It's not in Heroes And Villains, but in the Bicycle Rider chorus. The fuzz bass is playing it. This is a part which most fanmixes and BWPS just skipped, while it's one of my favourite melodies of Smile. That fuzz bass adds so many interesting harmonies by staying with the same melody when the vocals change chord. In SOT it was Bicycle Rider overdubs 1-3, where part 1 had the most prominent bass. Now you can hear it much better, thanks to Mark and Alan.

Yup, it's quite evident on SOT. But that melody, which is the same as the one on DYLW, and the Piano theme from TSS is not the same as the 'ba-ba-ba' thing, that was my point. Wink
And I agree, it's an awesome harmony to the main Bicycle Rider melody, and still funny that Kiss had a huge hit with that very same melody (and rhythm) in the 80s Wink
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desmondo
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« Reply #33 on: November 08, 2011, 06:05:08 AM »

Guys - I have done a side by side comparison which may aid discussion - please let me know of any corrections you may have

http://www.zshare.net/download/958293912732c065/

Sorry could upload it direct - if you can please feel free
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Richard
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« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2011, 09:28:43 AM »

"Organ Waltz" really reminds me of Pere Ubu.
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Mac the Hat
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« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2011, 01:14:27 AM »

I don't think I've ever heard the whiste/dum dum dum part added to the end of the dum dum dum heroes and villains part. It seems a natural connection. If that makes no sense, I'll add some track times.
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« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2011, 08:31:10 AM »

Ok, I love this version but for the fact that the damn snare drum and trombone are buried in the verse mix...WHY!! Drives me nuts!  Wall If you listen to the Smiley version the drums and Trombone are perfect. I have no idea why they don't use this mix as a starting point. It is vintage and the snare and trombone are crucial to the feel and integrity of this song.

I like how they cleaned up the ending to Cantina so the contrasting melodies can be heard on the guitars or whatever those instrument are...
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runnersdialzero
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« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2011, 06:56:21 AM »

I've never heard a mix of "Heroes And Villains" that didn't need the snare to come up a lot. sh*t makes me want to jam a screwdriver into my ears out of frustration.
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« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2011, 08:47:41 AM »

I've never heard a mix of "Heroes And Villains" that didn't need the snare to come up a lot. feces makes me want to jam a screwdriver into my ears out of frustration.

Think the snare-level is just fine in the new mix on CD1. Never been a big fan of having the snare loud in mixes though.
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« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2011, 02:09:13 PM »

I have to admit that one of my few disappointments is in the structure of the vinyl 45. Mind you, it's got beautiful sound and great editing, and contains a lot of great parts, but...

What I always like best about H&V was that it was sort of an epic story. And it doesn't act like one on the single. It just sort of devolves into a bunch of nice musical bits that sound good, but...but...where's the story?

Time to cook up a new fan mix myself, I suppose...
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Reverend Rock
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« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2011, 09:53:10 PM »

Time to cook up a new fan mix myself, I suppose...

They're addicting, aren't they?  I've been revising a couple of mine lately.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #41 on: November 15, 2011, 09:30:26 PM »

Am I missing something or is there no version of the box set of the original backing verse paired with vocals, like the one we have on the Smiley Smile two-fer bonus tracks?
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« Reply #42 on: November 15, 2011, 09:40:32 PM »

I've never heard a mix of "Heroes And Villains" that didn't need the snare to come up a lot. feces makes me want to jam a screwdriver into my ears out of frustration.

Think the snare-level is just fine in the new mix on CD1. Never been a big fan of having the snare loud in mixes though.

I think the Pt. 1, the vintage mix same as on the two-fer is better. On any others the rhythm tracks are too low. Need more punch.
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Roger Ryan
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« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2011, 12:13:51 PM »

Am I missing something or is there no version of the box set of the original backing verse paired with vocals, like the one we have on the Smiley Smile two-fer bonus tracks?

If you're referring to "Heroes & Villains (Alternate Take)" which appeared on the SMILEY SMILE / WILD HONEY two-fer, you'll find it on the A-side of the 45 single included in the TSS box set and as Track 2 on CD 2 of the TSS 2-CD set. It's now called "Heroes & Villains Part 1".
« Last Edit: November 16, 2011, 12:15:15 PM by Roger Ryan » Logged
Shane
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« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2011, 01:17:55 AM »

I'm listening to CD 4 track 24 as I write this.  You guys are right about this version... it struck me as soon as I heard it... it's really good.  There's a section I've never heard anywhere else that pops up at the 1:13 mark.  It has the (previously) a capella "dixieland band" vocals, but this time the verse backing track roars behind it, creating a moment of sublime kickass.  At the end of this section, there is a somewhat abrupt fade-out, and when the music kicks back in, the audio quality has significantly changed for the better... it sounds like stuff taken from multi-track masters.   I believe this is where this original mix ends, and random "sections" are then lined up for the rest of the track.
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« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2011, 10:49:34 PM »

Wait so - if the original structure of "Heroes and Villains" (Humble Harv vintage) was to feature "barnyard" as the fade, has anyone examined the possiblity that the 'great shape' verse may have been used recurrently as a chorus?
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2011, 07:47:12 AM »

Wait so - if the original structure of "Heroes and Villains" (Humble Harv vintage) was to feature "barnyard" as the fade, has anyone examined the possiblity that the 'great shape' verse may have been used recurrently as a chorus?

A few things: I don't think the demo suggests that Heroes and Villains was to feature Barnyard as the fade. I mean, he does stop with Barnyard but it is clear just from the things that he was recording that there was more to the song after that. What is interesting about the demo is that he says he hasn't finished Barnyard yet but that's basically what became the finished product. Maybe the melody was going to continue with more lyrics, a la He Gives Speeches. I don't see I'm in Great Shape working as a chorus and especially not when it was being singled out as a track on its own. Part of the problem with H&V from a single/commercial standpoint was that it really didn't seem to have a big hooky chorus a la Help Me Rhonda, California Girls, The Little Girl I Once Knew, Sloop John B. and Good Vibrations. Then again, neither did Wouldn't it Be Nice and God Only Knows.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 07:48:36 AM by rockandroll » Logged
tansen
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« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2011, 05:35:37 AM »

-
« Last Edit: January 12, 2012, 06:49:10 AM by tansen » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2011, 05:29:40 PM »

Interesting to see that nobody has mentioned (at least not here) that Carl sings a lot of the lead on Heroes and Villains: Early Version Outtake Sessions on Disc 4 of the Boxset.

Ummm...what?

All I hear is Brian and Mike (more of him than on any released version), but no Carl as far as I can tell.
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sly74
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« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2011, 05:55:12 PM »

Interesting to see that nobody has mentioned (at least not here) that Carl sings a lot of the lead on Heroes and Villains: Early Version Outtake Sessions on Disc 4 of the Boxset.

Ummm...what?

All I hear is Brian and Mike (more of him than on any released version), but no Carl as far as I can tell.

Same here. Carl??
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