Evolution of Heroes and Villains

[MJP]

The reality is we still haven't gotten the definitive Heroes and Villians in my opinion.

To do so, we need to use the original, the cantina mix, the brian amd mike duet version and finally the Smile Sessions version.

It's there and its something to behold.

[Bicyclerider]

Also, what's with the fade? So it was originally recorded at the same session as OMP, as the "big finale". Then in '67 Brian rerecorded it with the bird whistles. And then he used the original version anyway for the Cantina version.

He hadn't rerecorded the fade at the time of putting together the cantina version.

On Barnyard - it was recorded with the verses at the first (well second, the first was wiped) Heroes session.  From what we hear, it was recorded as a fade - there's no "ending" that would make a transition to another section.  But is that because the piece is faded out before we hear the cold ending?  I notice we don't have sessions for this piece, just the final product (minus the backing vocals but including the animal sounds which I assume are Mike Vosse and Van Dyke and Brian).

Why does Brian say "here's another section" instead of "and it ends like this?"  If he knew it was the fade, why not say that's the end of the song?  "We're still working."  Is this why Brian found it so difficult to finish Smile - he'd record something as the tag or fade, then change his mind a week or two later - but now is unable to use that piece because he didn't record it with a cold ending?

I firmly believe with no actual evidence that since Barnyard was taken out of Heroes at the same time as Great Shape and the two were planned to go together in the new listed track "I'm in Great Shape."  Shape by itself is not enough to make a track, and since Barnyard was removed and false Barnyard used in it's place, where else would it go?

On Bicyclerider - I believe (as does Alan as I recall) that Bicyclerider was taken from Worms to use in Heroes "Part 1" (the A side).  The fact you can hear on the tapes it segues into the Heroes verse would certainly support that.  We don't know if it would have been a single section or used as a chorus since we have no Brian edits of the song with BR in it - but it's certainly an attractive supposition since he rerecorded BR in a minor key and did exactly that in the single version.  But BR was in January and then didn't make the cut for the cantina version in February.

After cantina I'm not convinced he worked on the "Part 1" or A side of the single until the Smiley sessions in May/June.  It seems to me most or all of the February/March sessions after Feb 10th were for "Part 2" or the B side.  Except for the bizarre rerecording of the verse track - don't know what to make of that.  I'm not sure the session sheets are the best guide to what was recorded for what - these were often submitted after the fact and may not be entirely accurate.  Better sources would be the session slates and tapebox documentation, which would have been done at the session and more closely reflect what Brian was thinking at the time.

[buddhahat]

Also, what's with the fade? So it was originally recorded at the same session as OMP, as the "big finale". Then in '67 Brian rerecorded it with the bird whistles. And then he used the original version anyway for the Cantina version.

He hadn't rerecorded the fade at the time of putting together the cantina version.

On Barnyard - it was recorded with the verses at the first (well second, the first was wiped) Heroes session.  From what we hear, it was recorded as a fade - there's no "ending" that would make a transition to another section.  But is that because the piece is faded out before we hear the cold ending?  I notice we don't have sessions for this piece, just the final product (minus the backing vocals but including the animal sounds which I assume are Mike Vosse and Van Dyke and Brian).

Why does Brian say "here's another section" instead of "and it ends like this?"  If he knew it was the fade, why not say that's the end of the song?  "We're still working."  Is this why Brian found it so difficult to finish Smile - he'd record something as the tag or fade, then change his mind a week or two later - but now is unable to use that piece because he didn't record it with a cold ending?

I firmly believe with no actual evidence that since Barnyard was taken out of Heroes at the same time as Great Shape and the two were planned to go together in the new listed track "I'm in Great Shape."  Shape by itself is not enough to make a track, and since Barnyard was removed and false Barnyard used in it's place, where else would it go?

On Bicyclerider - I believe (as does Alan as I recall) that Bicyclerider was taken from Worms to use in Heroes "Part 1" (the A side).  The fact you can hear on the tapes it segues into the Heroes verse would certainly support that.  We don't know if it would have been a single section or used as a chorus since we have no Brian edits of the song with BR in it - but it's certainly an attractive supposition since he rerecorded BR in a minor key and did exactly that in the single version.  But BR was in January and then didn't make the cut for the cantina version in February.

After cantina I'm not convinced he worked on the "Part 1" or A side of the single until the Smiley sessions in May/June.  It seems to me most or all of the February/March sessions after Feb 10th were for "Part 2" or the B side.  Except for the bizarre rerecording of the verse track - don't know what to make of that.  I'm not sure the session sheets are the best guide to what was recorded for what - these were often submitted after the fact and may not be entirely accurate.  Better sources would be the session slates and tapebox documentation, which would have been done at the session and more closely reflect what Brian was thinking at the time.

I agree that Barnyard had to be the original fade for the early version of H&V.

Bicylerider - what do you make of the fade re-record? In my mind this is rerecorded not to replace false Barnyard as the Heroes Fade, but as a counterpart fade for the b side 'Part 2' version, much as Alan and Mark have used it on the Part 2 mix in the new set.

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

I disagree. He re-recorded the intro, verse, and fade all within a span of a few days. I think he was starting over from scratch.

[Micha]

I disagree. He re-recorded the intro, verse, and fade all within a span of a few days. I think he was starting over from scratch.

There's the story about Brian playing H&V to a passer-by on the street who didn't like it and then starting from scratch. If that is not a myth, it could have happened at that time. Well, Brian obviously did start from scratch rerecording verse and outro, but didn't take it that far.

[buddhahat]

I disagree. He re-recorded the intro, verse, and fade all within a span of a few days. I think he was starting over from scratch.

Yeah but this was all only a week or so after he recorded Gee and other sections arguably designed for Part 2. Intro has to be for Part 2. I can't imagine Brian recording that for the A Side of the single. Pushing the envelope was one thing but that would have been suicidal! I don't know what to make for the verse remake.

However it does raise the question: If Intro was to start Part 2, where was Gee to go? Maybe Part 2 started with Intro, followed by Gee, as Bicycle Rider earlier suggested.

[Cam Mott]

I agree Lou. Paperwork isn't 100% but slates and call outs aren't 100% reliable either. H&V A side can have a Part 2 or 3, 4 which wouldn't have anything to do with the H&V Part 2 B side but the distinction for which master wouldn't necessarily be noted on the call outs.

The master was important, it is even the specific stated product the Boys are required to deliver in their contract as I remember it. So many masters in each consecutive year. So I believe the master is important and is the key. The masters were discreet things on singles and albums as I understand it, right? The session records are the only thing which tracks the seemingly all important masters [unless the tapebox is noted I guess]. I still think the best we are going to do is identify what call outs/recordings belong to what master number on what dates on the only master session paperwork. It will still not be 100% but it will be the best info available imo.

I was hoping an acetate or tape of the March H&V/H&V Part 2 would be located for the box. I take it one wasn't?