Between Holland & 15 Big Ones....Why & What was the main reason?

[letsmakeit31]

So between Holland & 15 Big Ones what happened?, lots of reasons to consider I think, Infighting, Lack of good clear forward thinking management?, Endless Summer, Brian almost at the point of no return? & the help he needed to live, Greed on getting easy returns of playing the early hits forever?. To me it's like history repeating itself as in 1967 Smiley Smile from the previous groundbreaking Pet Sounds. The period from 73 to 76 always interests me and its easy to pick out faults in what the boys did during this time, And maybe it was all about trying to get Brian back so to speak both in music and in life. But to rush out a album of mostly covers seems to be looking from my viewpoint as just a cash in. I know that both Carl & Dennis wasn't happy both for themselves and for their brother Brian to let the public to hear what was really therapy work for Brian & I may be wrong but maybe Dennis was happy and willing to give some of his songs to the group at this time?. So after all of this ramblings writing I ask you all did or do you think that 15 big ones was just a cash in or does it stand up as a good album? 

[puni puni]

Mount Vernon and Fairway = Smile
15 Big Ones = Smiley Smile

[letsmakeit31]

I like that!! How about.                Funky Pretty=Smile(Stay with me lol).  Chapel Of Love=Smiley Smile.

[Keri]

Interesting point.  15 Big ones is an odd album, very different from Holland, not just Brian's back but no Ricky, Blondie or Jack Riley. I don't know why they left. I also see that it was released in 1976, Holland was 1973, that was a long time between albums then. So I suspect that the momentum for their new direction had failed before 15 Big ones came along. Riley seems to have been vilified a bit, but he contributed lyrics to Carl's best songs and pushed the group in a progressive direction. 15 Big ones was regression, maybe you could say the same of Love You but that album was radical, daring regression, the albums that came after that I find completely disposable, watered down regression.

I like the song Back Home, I can listen to it, though not often, and can't see the album as strong. it could be seen as preparation for Love You. Then creative drought until Brian embarked on his solo career.

[letsmakeit31]

So would you of thought that Adult Child would of been better than 15 Big Ones?? Imagine if Adult Child was released instead of 15 Big Ones would this of been seen as groundbreaking??

[Andrew G. Doe]

Two words: Endless Summer.

[Jim V.]

Two words: Endless Summer.

Andrew, do you think that's why the few songs that we know Brian wrote around the time of '74 like "Good Timin'" and "It's OK" went more back to more of their "glory days" type sound? Cuz I think something like "California Feelin'" still had more of that earthy Holland feel. I mean, 15 Big Ones in general was more of an Endless Summer response, but I think an album based around the Caribou sessions material would still have been a bit more progressive.

[The Madcap]

Two words: Endless Summer.

\
That's what I was going to say. The way I see it, after Endless Summer, they now had an easy road back to commercial success, and they ran with it. It almost makes me wish Endless Summer was never released. If they had pushed on a little longer, I think a comeback that didn't rely on nostalgia might have been possible. They were already beginning to do better before Endless Summer. While they nowhere near as good as the sales they once had, their albums were starting to sell again, and concert attendance was up. I think if they had made a couple more albums under the management of Jack Rieley with heavy contributions from Dennis and Carl, a comeback might have been possible. It probably wouldn't have been as large as the Endless Summer comeback, but it certainly would have been more respectable.

[c-man]

Two words: Endless Summer.

\
That's what I was going to say. The way I see it, after Endless Summer, they now had an easy road back to commercial success, and they ran with it.

Well, not only that, but with the wider, huge audience Endless Summer brought them, and the general feeling that the quality of their 1964-1966 music surpassed the quality of their early '70s output (Sunflower being the obvous exception), the group felt the only way to reach the hightened expectations they were now facing was to bring Brian back as chief songwriter and sole producer.  From the interviews of the day, Mike and Al were content with ANYTHING that Brian wrote & produced as long as they could get a new album out while the gettin' was good, while Dennis and Carl were sorely dissapointed in Brian's '76 output and would have preferred to wait until he was well enough to produce work up to par with the '65-'66 stuff, but felt obliged (out of genuine love & respect) to support him any way they could.

[Smilin Ed H]

Murry's death.

[letsmakeit31]

Murry's Death. Was that one of the main reasons why Brian went downhill fast. And what about Dennis I thought he was fairly clean up until 76?? Or I'm I wrong??

[c-man]

Murry's Death. Was that one of the main reasons why Brian went downhill fast. And what about Dennis I thought he was fairly clean up until 76?? Or I'm I wrong??

I've always said Murry's death had a PROFOUND effect on what happened to Brian & Dennis in the mid-to-late '70s.  I think they both gradually went into a tailspin & deep nosedive after that, and you'll notice they both soon started talking (and singing) much more gravelly & "macho" after that...IMO, their subconscious way of keeping Murry alive in themselves.

[trismegistus]

I've always been sort of curious as to what happened with Blondie, Ricky, and Riley (and tell me THAT isn't a good name for a band!). I've heard that Jack was keen on keeping the Wilsons as the principal songwriters, was the success of Endless Summer enough for Mike, Al, and Bruce to force him out and assert themselves as equal members of the group? Especially since he seemed working with the group pretty closely during Holland and before, it's weird that they experienced such a turnaround.

[c-man]

I've always been sort of curious as to what happened with Blondie, Ricky, and Riley (and tell me THAT isn't a good name for a band!). I've heard that Jack was keen on keeping the Wilsons as the principal songwriters, was the success of Endless Summer enough for Mike, Al, and Bruce to force him out and assert themselves as equal members of the group? Especially since he seemed working with the group pretty closely during Holland and before, it's weird that they experienced such a turnaround.

No, Riley was fired by Carl in the latter half of '73, at least a good six months before Endless Summer was conceived & released.  And Bruce left in early '72. 

[BJL]

I've always been sort of curious as to what happened with Blondie, Ricky, and Riley (and tell me THAT isn't a good name for a band!). I've heard that Jack was keen on keeping the Wilsons as the principal songwriters, was the success of Endless Summer enough for Mike, Al, and Bruce to force him out and assert themselves as equal members of the group? Especially since he seemed working with the group pretty closely during Holland and before, it's weird that they experienced such a turnaround.

Riley decided for personal reasons to stay in Holland after the Holland record.  Since he was no longer present to defend himself, I think it then became fairly easy for those who liked him less to persuade those who liked him more. not to mention the difficult of managing a band from 6,000 miles away. 

[Paulos]

I'm still a bit vague on why Blondie and Ricky left, wasn't there a story that one of the Love's (Stan?) made a racist remark to Ricky?

[Smilin Ed H]

"I've always said Murry's death had a PROFOUND effect on what happened to Brian & Dennis in the mid-to-late '70s.  I think they both gradually went into a tailspin & deep nosedive after that, and you'll notice they both soon started talking (and singing) much more gravelly & "macho" after that...IMO, their subconscious way of keeping Murry alive in themselves."

I've long thought along the lines of your comments about Dennis and Brian's tailspin, but what you say about their singing is intetesting too.  I wonder how much of Brian's writing of 'pop' songs during the first Landy period had to do with the doctor taking him back to a more youthful time or whether it was Brian's choice to bring back the (better) elements of his youth - and despite Murry's tyrannical behaviour, having his dad around must have been one of them.

[The Heartical Don]

Endless Summer, yes. But I guess very, very few bands would have been able to resist the temptation present therein... many groups have experienced long, difficult dry stretches, and just as many had greatest hits collections released.

I just think the sheer proportion of the Endless Summer success (and that of Spirit Of America too) got the band into doing what it did. That, and the idea of whole new generations of fans, willing to fill whole stadiums, singing along to all the hits, and so on.

If I read reports of that famous Wembley show, with Elton and the Eagles, I can't for the life of me think: meh, revivalist stuff, living on past glories. What comes to my mind: great band, capable of great playing and singing, claiming back what is its own legacy.

[smile-holland]

I'm still a bit vague on why Blondie and Ricky left, wasn't there a story that one of the Love's (Stan?) made a racist remark to Ricky?

That would be Blondie. As far as I can remember, Blondie has mentioned this as the reason. I also understood that according to the Love-camp the falling out was related to Blondie being drunk on stage. Two stories, the truth probably is a bit of both.

And I think the reason Ricky left, was simply because he got the chance to join the James Gang, late '74. Probably just in the mood for a new challenge.

[Ron]

Murry's Death. Was that one of the main reasons why Brian went downhill fast. And what about Dennis I thought he was fairly clean up until 76?? Or I'm I wrong??

I've always said Murry's death had a PROFOUND effect on what happened to Brian & Dennis in the mid-to-late '70s.  I think they both gradually went into a tailspin & deep nosedive after that, and you'll notice they both soon started talking (and singing) much more gravelly & "macho" after that...IMO, their subconscious way of keeping Murry alive in themselves.

Very interesting.  Thank you for sharing that.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I'm still a bit vague on why Blondie and Ricky left, wasn't there a story that one of the Love's (Stan?) made a racist remark to Ricky?

Blondie left after a backstage bust-up with Steve Love in late 1973, Ricky left about a year later as he was frustrated with not recording new material. He joined Barnstorm.

[smile-holland]

I'm still a bit vague on why Blondie and Ricky left, wasn't there a story that one of the Love's (Stan?) made a racist remark to Ricky?

Ricky left about a year later as he was frustrated with not recording new material. He joined Barnstorm.

Barnstorm, not James Gang, that was it (both Joe Walsh btw). Should have checked that first.

[Aegir]

Ricky must not have been in Barnstorm for too long being that they broke up in 1974.

[runnersdialzero]

Blondie left after a backstage bust-up with Steve Love in late 1973

Ah, gotta love these folks who were brought into the picture in the 70s to keep things orderly. Physical violence toward two members, leaving one unable to sing, fucking members of the bands' wives, etc. etc. etc.