"Plymouth rock" in Holidays

[Micha]

I don't know if this is a new thought, but if the line about Plymouth rock rolling over was originally in Holidays, doesn't that suggest the song was originally about the pilgrim fathers celebrating Thanksgiving?

[Dunderhead]

I don't really think that's what was going on.
Brian was clearly inspired by exotic music that was popular in the 50s and 60s. He probably watched Korla Pandit on tv and listened to Murry's collection of Martin Denny LPs (if such a thing existed). Let's Go Away For Awhile was the earlier exponent of this influence, and Diamond Head would probably be the ultimate culmination. The name "Holidays" I think pretty clearly refers to the vacation type of holiday you take in Hawaii or something.
I've always suspected that Brian had made a connection between LSD trips and actual trips to exotic lands. He seemed eager to hit on this theme somewhere in SMiLE, but he never seemed to quite make it. It's been suggested that Holidays is an early version of Worms altogether, which is something I wouldn't be surprised with. I think Brian was interested in using exotic sounding music as a metaphor, sitting on a sandy beach being used to represent enlightenment. Eventually the whole complex of ideas was boiled down into Little Pad.

[monicker]

But Holidays, musically and arrangement-wise, has absolutely nothing to do with Exotica.

[Micha]

The name "Holidays" I think pretty clearly refers to the vacation type of holiday you take in Hawaii or something.

A point worthy to discuss. My response to that: As it now seems, "Plymouth rock roll over" was a lyric originally destined for "Holidays". That has nothing to do with Hawaii, nor has any musical part of "Holidays" any relation to Hawaii. DYLW has the musical reference to Hawaii. The final version "On A Holiday" however connects to Hawaii lyrically. But was that the way the song started out?

I've always suspected that Brian had made a connection between LSD trips and actual trips to exotic lands.

I suspect you keep overrating drugs as a major subject of SMiLE.

[hypehat]

But Holidays, musically and arrangement-wise, has absolutely nothing to do with Exotica.

That's a point, but you could also say the same about the track of H&V - it sounds nothing like the cowboy song it's supposed to be.

[Been Too Long]

Didn't Van Dyke Parks mention that the lyric "Plymouth Rock" was in reference to the chicken:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Rock_%28chicken%29

"Chicken Holidays", maybe some type of early Barnyard?

[onkster]

Gosh, I had never thought of Plymouth in relation to the chicken. There's always something new to learn in the SMiLE universe.

In regards to Holidays...and I know this isn't important, just sharing...back when "Look" was mistakenly titled "Holidays", I took the meaning literally, as in the American meaning of "holidays"...it had such a Christmassy sound to it...it just sounded like playing with toys...of course, all that got corrected...

[doinnothin]

I posted about Holidays as a part of Barnyard in the past: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10327.msg187605.html#msg187605

In Jules Siegel's "Goodbye Surfing, Hello God" his description of one of the songs is "civilized chickens bobbed up and down in a tiny ballet of comic barnyard melody". I think it's a stretch to think of the Barnyard's music as any sort of ballet, but perhaps the "Chickens do their number" verse was to be followed by Holidays, which actually sounds quite a bit like a ballet number in its intro (Dance of the Sugar Plum Fairy for instance). I know it's usually thought of as a nautical piece, and it definitely ended up with the pirate lyrics on BWPS, but I think it's worth considering that a chicken ballet may have been one of its uses along the way.

Add the Plymouth Rock chicken lyrics and I'm even more sold.

[monicker]

But Holidays, musically and arrangement-wise, has absolutely nothing to do with Exotica.

That's a point, but you could also say the same about the track of H&V - it sounds nothing like the cowboy song it's supposed to be.

Exotica is a very clearly defined genre of music that makes use of very specific instrumentation, arrangements, and scales. "Cowboy song" is very vague, ambiguous. Musically (not lyrically) that's not really a discernible genre.

[Micha]

Talking about Plymouth Rock and civilized chickens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUNp3eBCLwE

Not only is this cartoon about chickens who stole a diamond called "Plymouth Rock" - it is also kind of SMiLE contemporary, being released June 15, 1966.

Strange coincidence, no? I stumbled over it on TV the other day.

[Dunderhead]

The Plymouth Rock line seems like it HAS to go with Do You Like (dig) Worms? Isn't that the point of the song? What's under Plymouth Rock? Worms of course. The song is about how if you turn over the foundational stone of America, there are gross little worms. The line also invokes "rock and roll" as a medium of truth.

[guitarfool2002]

Talking about Plymouth Rock and civilized chickens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUNp3eBCLwE

Not only is this cartoon about chickens who stole a diamond called "Plymouth Rock" - it is also kind of SMiLE contemporary, being released June 15, 1966.

Strange coincidence, no? I stumbled over it on TV the other day.

That is very interesting, I used to watch that cartoon along with "The Pink Panther" as a kid! Neat find.

Remember in "Teen Set" a mention was made of a film Brian said he wanted to make of chickens wearing tennis shoes, ostensibly "doing their number".

[ash]

Not so much about chickens and rocks but this article is certainly relevant to worms. I remember reading a similar article years ago and thinking it made sense of do you like worms .Well worth a read.
http://www.charlesmann.org/articles/NatGeo-Jamestown-05-07-1.htm

[guitarfool2002]

Not so much about chickens and rocks but this article is certainly relevant to worms. I remember reading a similar article years ago and thinking it made sense of do you like worms .Well worth a read.
http://www.charlesmann.org/articles/NatGeo-Jamestown-05-07-1.htm

That Van Dyke was a crafty one, wasn't he?

The unusual thing about Van Dyke Parks' lyrics is his ability to write in references which make perfect sense to the story arc, yet could be as far removed from or as close to his original intent, however the listeners care to interpret them. He strung together references which could be linked to so many events surrounding the narrative, yet who can say it was anything more or less than stringing together words and phrases that sounded interesting.

That's not taking anything at all away from the lyrics, but it is amazing how many lines can be drawn to and from his phrases to actual historical events, and you have to wonder if he really had all that in mind as he was working with Brian.

[The Demon]

Not so much about chickens and rocks but this article is certainly relevant to worms. I remember reading a similar article years ago and thinking it made sense of do you like worms .Well worth a read.
http://www.charlesmann.org/articles/NatGeo-Jamestown-05-07-1.htm

That Van Dyke was a crafty one, wasn't he?

The unusual thing about Van Dyke Parks' lyrics is his ability to write in references which make perfect sense to the story arc, yet could be as far removed from or as close to his original intent, however the listeners care to interpret them. He strung together references which could be linked to so many events surrounding the narrative, yet who can say it was anything more or less than stringing together words and phrases that sounded interesting.

That's not taking anything at all away from the lyrics, but it is amazing how many lines can be drawn to and from his phrases to actual historical events, and you have to wonder if he really had all that in mind as he was working with Brian.

I think he absolutely did.  Don't they compare him to James Joyce in the press release for the box set?  Parks is nowhere near as intelligent or talented, but he's taking a similar approach of using words/phrases with loaded meanings that spiral far out from the superficial, A-to-B of the lyrics themselves.  A perfect example is the dorky, childish "Do You Like Worms" title, which as someone posted also asks you to question your support of official history and government.

[guitarfool2002]

Not so much about chickens and rocks but this article is certainly relevant to worms. I remember reading a similar article years ago and thinking it made sense of do you like worms .Well worth a read.
http://www.charlesmann.org/articles/NatGeo-Jamestown-05-07-1.htm

That Van Dyke was a crafty one, wasn't he?

The unusual thing about Van Dyke Parks' lyrics is his ability to write in references which make perfect sense to the story arc, yet could be as far removed from or as close to his original intent, however the listeners care to interpret them. He strung together references which could be linked to so many events surrounding the narrative, yet who can say it was anything more or less than stringing together words and phrases that sounded interesting.

That's not taking anything at all away from the lyrics, but it is amazing how many lines can be drawn to and from his phrases to actual historical events, and you have to wonder if he really had all that in mind as he was working with Brian.

I think he absolutely did.  Don't they compare him to James Joyce in the press release for the box set?  Parks is nowhere near as intelligent or talented, but he's taking a similar approach of using words/phrases with loaded meanings that spiral far out from the superficial, A-to-B of the lyrics themselves.  A perfect example is the dorky, childish "Do You Like Worms" title, which as someone posted also asks you to question your support of official history and government.

It's interesting to read Frank Holmes' interpretation of the lyrics for Worms, since he was in direct conversation with Van Dyke about the underlying stories which inspired his artwork depicting the lyrics.

All of this begs the question why did Van Dyke not go on to greater acclaim and fame as a lyricist after Smile? He proved he had the chops to write challenging and compelling lyrics, yet post-Smile, he became more known for his music and as a musical arranger and composer.

It's almost as if Brian chose him at exactly the right time for exactly the right kind of project.

[Aegir]

After Van Dyke's "Song Cycle" album didn't sell well, he decided to stop writing obtuse lyrics.

[guitarfool2002]

After Van Dyke's "Song Cycle" album didn't sell well, he decided to stop writing obtuse lyrics.

So the failure of one (his first) album caused him to ditch a natural talent? I don't believe that. But if it's true, it's a shame.

[Aegir]

I don't have any links, but I've read/heard several interviews where he says that.

[guitarfool2002]

I don't have any links, but I've read/heard several interviews where he says that.

Wow, that would be a shame, I'm curious to hear more. The proof of his talent and skill as a lyricist, to me at least, is set in stone with Smile.

Yet his compositional and arranging skills - also on display with Song Cycle - didn't suffer the same fate as his lyric writing. In fact I'd say his compositions only became more quirky and some would say more inaccessible especially in the 70's.

[The Demon]

All of this begs the question why did Van Dyke not go on to greater acclaim and fame as a lyricist after Smile? He proved he had the chops to write challenging and compelling lyrics, yet post-Smile, he became more known for his music and as a musical arranger and composer.

It's almost as if Brian chose him at exactly the right time for exactly the right kind of project.

What was Frank Holmes' interpretation?

VDP doesn't have attitude.  I think that's a big part of it.  He's like your grandfather, if he was more clever.  Guys like Dylan or Lennon get accolades for spitting out abstraction in part because they have attitude, whereas VDP is more inviting.  He's not "cool," which is a good thing.

[guitarfool2002]

All of this begs the question why did Van Dyke not go on to greater acclaim and fame as a lyricist after Smile? He proved he had the chops to write challenging and compelling lyrics, yet post-Smile, he became more known for his music and as a musical arranger and composer.

It's almost as if Brian chose him at exactly the right time for exactly the right kind of project.

What was Frank Holmes' interpretation?

VDP doesn't have attitude.  I think that's a big part of it.  He's like your grandfather, if he was more clever.  Guys like Dylan or Lennon get accolades for spitting out abstraction in part because they have attitude, whereas VDP is more inviting.  He's not "cool," which is a good thing.

Frank Holmes:

"Yeah, there was quite a bit of lyrics for that song. As it turned out, there wasn't much used from the version I had. The lyrics I worked from had to do with images of people waving from an ocean liner, and native Indians behind that.  The lyric went:  "Once upon the Sandwich Isles,
the social structure steamed upon Hawaii." Then it was "Rock, rock, roll, Plymouth Rock roll over..."  And then there's a piece called "Ribbon of concrete, see what you done done", which became  "Bicycle rider, see what you done done". It came from the old standard "CC Rider, see what you done done". I remember it went on, "See what you done done, to the church of the American Indian..." And there was a last part on there that went something like:
"Having returned to the East or West Indies - we always got them confused..."
It had to do with the white man's advancement."

I don't have it to post now, but take a look at Holmes' panel for "Do You Like Worms" from the Smile booklet for further interpretations of the lyrics as he saw them.

One sub-panel has a sign saying "Rhode Island Red" which is a type of rooster. Another has a carnival game with people holding fishing poles with worms on them standing blindly behind a curtain. That was explored in *great* detail back on the SmileShop, apparently that was some sort of an older carnival game which people knew about. I don't know where you could find those notes in an archive but that seemed to be close to where Homes was coming from with the imagery.

[Andrew G. Doe]

After Van Dyke's "Song Cycle" album didn't sell well, he decided to stop writing obtuse lyrics.

Oh really ?

Clang Of The Yankee Reaper

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I guess Frank never received lyrics for Child is Father of the Man?

[mammy blue]

You should check out VDP's latest work!!! Lots of great wordplay, with some of it in a style reminiscent of Song Cycle.

http://bananastan.com/singles.html