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Author Topic: What Was Each Beach Boy Doing When He First Heard Sgt Pepper?  (Read 8285 times)
Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2011, 12:21:15 PM »


Great reply, and in respect to what you say about Shakespeare in particular I concede to you for shining a torch on my GCSE understanding of the Bard,

However my reaction to Imagine is deeply ingrained, and is influenced by my opinions about Lennon. Lennon was never working class, he was comfortably middle class as a child.  He never knew what it is like to be poor. Would he have given up his possessions and money? I think not.  John Lennon was not the person people think he was. I know he's dead and can't defend himself, but the evidence that Lennon was a conservative politically, had nothing to do with charities and using his power and money to help people is rather overwhelming. This is the guy who used to laugh at the crippled kids bought in to meet the Beatles. He never changed.
Imagine was a product of its time, and maybe reflected a brief period of Lennon's political beliefs that suited him at the time.  Does this detract from the message of the song? This is subjective. I personally think yes it does. If I'm going to be sold a utopia, I like to know who is selling it to me.



Thanks for the reply -- I agree with a lot of it but I do want to put pressure on a few things. First, I realize it has been fairly common to re-assess Lennon's working class roots but these claims have been fairly problematic. It's true that Lennon lived in a more middle class neighbourhood - but where you live isn't really what cements your place in the class system. As the term implies, it's what you do. Now, the Stanley family from which came John's mother and Aunt Mimi were wealthier but ultimately in the 50s, this really only mattered if you were a man. If you were a woman who got married, you basically took on the class of your husband, who was the worker of the household. So Mimi did have a more middle-class profession as a nurse before marriage but gave that up after her marriage to George Smith who was basically a farmer. In that sense, the household was working class. Even after Smith died, Mimi was forced to resort to renting out rooms in her house to students to make ends meet. This is simply not in keeping with 1950s middle class lifestyle. John may have been more suburban than Paul, George, and Ringo but he was pretty much in the same class system, maybe a bit above but not really middle class.

I'm not really sure what you mean by Lennon being a conservative politically. The traditional use of the term conservative is in fact, very much associated with the opposition to things like wage slavery which a song like Imagine also evokes in opposition. If you mean he supported English Toryism or American Republicanism, than I'd have to say that the evidence for this is paltry.

As for the comments about his character, I mostly agree. Lennon was a complex individual and the reason most people know that is because he freely talked about it, both in his art and in interviews. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that "John Lennon was not the person people think he was." If you mean that he was not always a loving, peaceful hippie, then I'd say that's true but I would find it hard to believe that anyone who has listened to his music or heard the things he has had to say, would be under such a misapprehension. The fact is that while he did do some problematic things, he was nevertheless a person who was uncontroversially capable of being loving, helpful, honest, and peaceful. There are a lot of people he engaged with over the years, and not too many have a lot of bad things to say about him.

And finally, it is important to note what is at heart with the song. He is not saying, "Accept the world that I'm going to give you." Rather, he is asking the listener to imagine that such a world is possible.  And to be perfectly honest, if a man that had so many personal demons as Lennon could imagine that such a world is possible than that gives a tremendous amount of hope for the rest of us. And that's really the legacy of that song, no matter what anyone can dig up about Lennon's character.

I also have a lot of issues with the connection of socialism with the term utopia, but that's not your fault. "Imagine" sometimes works to cement that connection which, in my opinion, is unfavorable. Anyhow, the song isn't just about a socialist world.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 12:26:18 PM by rockandroll » Logged
Iron Horse-Apples
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« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2011, 12:34:32 PM »

I can't argue with you, as you're obviously a lot more knowledgeable and articulate than I.

But nothing can make me like the song.

I like You Can't Do That though, as unacceptable as Spector's He Hit Me. Great stuff.
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Chocolate Shake Man
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« Reply #52 on: September 17, 2011, 12:37:48 PM »

I can't argue with you, as you're obviously a lot more knowledgeable and articulate than I.

But nothing can make me like the song.

Haha. Fair enough - my girlfriend also despises it. I think it has less to do with the message than it has to do with the fact that it is played so much and it is not a song that always holds up well to repeated listening for everyone

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I like You Can't Do That though, as unacceptable as Spector's He Hit Me. Great stuff.

What I always found strange about the latter is Carol King's role in writing the music for it!
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