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Author Topic: Heroes & Villains parts 1 & 2 predictions/thoughts  (Read 12563 times)
Chris Brown
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« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2011, 12:02:50 PM »

I think the evidence is pretty stacked in favour of there being a 2 parted Heroes, and its representation on TSS speaks volumes imo.

I want to agree, but if what they are calling "Heroes And Villains, Part 1" and "Part 2" was really an historically-accurate "canon" version (even if reconstructed from an acetate), wouldn't it be somewhere on the box set CDs? To kind of hide it on the 2-CD version (and the vinyl single) makes it seem like they're deliberately downplaying its significance.

It depends on what kind of experience they're trying to create.  If you get the free digital download with the box, then it ends up in with all the other material anyway.  The packaging/formatting is just for fun.  And placing the material on a 45 might seem insignificant to some of us, but it could be their intention to show a lot of significance by doing so.  Perhaps it's their way of letting you get some kind of Smile experience as if the album and any related singles had come out in the 60s.  I see those 45s as a role playing exercise to give you that experience, as is replicating the original LP sleeve and booklet.  In packaging they're treating this like any box set for a popular, released LP (like Dark Side of the Moon, for instance).  It's the actual tracks that show you this was unfinished.  The whole thing is for fans who know what the deal is, and they want us to get a Smile experience instead of feeling like we're just looking at cataloged bits of sound.

I completely agree, I give a lot of significance to the fact that they decided to package Heroes as they have. They could have just had an "alternate" version on the box, and obviously there is already a lot of session material on there, so in my mind the choice to do it as a two-part single tells us that they have uncovered solid contemporary evidence that it was supposed to be that way at some point. Even with only the evidence we're privvy to now, it seems clear that this was Brian's intention in February/March '67, and they're going to give us the best approximation possible of what that may have sounded like.
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The Demon
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« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2011, 12:16:26 PM »

(as opposed to the analog download???) I hope if there is a download that it's available in a lossless format...

Why not?  There's a new buzz phrase.  When some niche label puts out a Smile Sessions cassette box in the future you can say you downloaded it from the shelf of your local "brick and mortar."
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Micha
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« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2011, 10:37:47 PM »

The best evidence has just sort of been overlooked through the years: there are coincidental recordings for a record master for H&V and a record master for H&V Part/Side 2/II.

Which had led me to believe that "H&V part 2" was just slightly more connected to "H&V" proper than "Shut Down Part 2" was to "Shut Down": not really two halves of one long song, but instead one song proper and one throwaway just to fill up an LP or the second side of a single in a fun way. Hopefully the box will either refute or confirm that.
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runnersdialzero
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« Reply #78 on: September 15, 2011, 11:57:34 PM »

I hope if there is a download that it's available in a lossless format...

You're gonna be waiting a long time. Sad
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monicker
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« Reply #79 on: September 16, 2011, 12:26:24 AM »

I have changed my mind on this. Initially, i thought the fact that a Parts 1 & 2 were "relegated" to a 45 rather than being on any of the CDs suggested that it wasn't an important find/a true Parts 1 & 2 because why would they do that, make such a strange decision like that in this era of digital media? But now i think the opposite. I get the impression that this is Mark and Alan giving a little wink to the fans by framing the mythical two part/two sided single in a historically accurate context--the 45 single. Like someone above said, attempting to give us a more authentic Smile experience as it might/should have happened. I mean, if this really is a true Heroes and Villains 1 & 2, think about how amazing and appropriate it would be to have it on a legit two sided 45. It's perfect. And really cool at that. And so then there's no need to put it on the box set CDs (especially if there's a download code for the vinyl stuff, which i have a feeling there will be), which frees up room on the CDs for other, unique content. And both Part 1 & 2 tracks are there on the 2 disc set, so everyone gets to hear them (well, except the people who only buy the vinyl set, i suppose). And if there ends up being no download code, well then it's a rather effective ploy by Capitol to make more money off of the same customers, even though i suspect a good amount of hardcore fans were going to purchase the 2 disc set in addition to the box anyway regardless of this H&V 1&2 issue. It all makes sense to me in this new light. Maybe i'm just letting wishful thinking get the best of me though. We'll see in a short while.
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rattfink
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« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2011, 05:24:37 AM »

I think that the 7" singles are a real make or break (for me) for the project as a whole. A lot was riding on the "singles" HV and Vega-Tables. With Surf's Up as the flipside to Vega, all of the the heaviest hitters are represented here. If they simply take the "album" version of HV and call it "Part 1" and some "sections HV" and call it "Part 2", who wouldn't be infuriated? How could this not be seen as "raking it in"? There (hopefully) has to be something very significant here. It also will be really interesting to see what qualifies as the Vega single. It can't be the sparse SS version, and hopefully it isn't the ML GV arranged version. Surf's Up is a huge wildcard too. If they take the ML GV sections plus connected solo BW version, they would never hear the end of it (from folks like us). So what will we get with these singles will really set the tone for this release (for me). This should separate the new set from the Unsurpassed Masters and Vigotone boots and Good Vibrations boxes, one would hope. ML and AB seem really sensible to me, so my money is banking on a great new set of material.
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Bicyclerider
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« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2011, 06:43:55 AM »

I think you're reading too much into the singles, although I would love what you suggest to be the case.  Surf's Up is likely  the Brian Wilson vocal over Part 1 and then the piano "demo," as Mark suggested they would do.  I would be very surprised if they used the Wild Honey Surf's Up as that obviously would not have come out as a single during the Smile era.  Vegetables will be a new mix/edit of the sections likely identical to what is on CD 1.

As I don't think any "new" sections of H & V have come to light, the two parted single will be some combination of parts familiar to us all - "sections," prelude to fade, cantina, fade rerecord, etc.  Alan has always expressed an interest in what Brian had planned for the two sided single or the different versions and has analyzed tape box info with various combinations of sections - hopefully that detective work has resulted in a possibly historically accurate H & V Parts 1 and 2.
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rattfink
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« Reply #82 on: September 16, 2011, 07:19:22 AM »

I think you're reading too much into the singles
LOL I think that you are right! I guess it would be livable for "historically accurate" versions of HV and Vega singles. I think that Surf's Up can only be a "historically intended" depiction at most since it probably never was "fully baked".
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