Heroes & Villains parts 1 & 2 predictions/thoughts

[Dunderhead]

The descriptions of things from Brian's friends are always really bizarre.

Cabinessence with Dennis singing like some "funky cat up in the mountains"
Heroes as 5 minutes of different versions of You Are My Sunshine
Vosse even puts the Wind Chimes outro in the context of the Elements

[Aegir]

Maybe all those things were true at one point... and just never recorded!

[SMiLE Brian]

The descriptions of things from Brian's friends are always really bizarre.

Cabinessence with Dennis singing like some "funky cat up in the mountains"
Heroes as 5 minutes of different versions of You Are My Sunshine
Vosse even puts the Wind Chimes outro in the context of the Elements

Its hard to remember stuff correctly from then with the Vosse Posse always being high out of their minds.

[Dunderhead]

The descriptions of things from Brian's friends are always really bizarre.

Cabinessence with Dennis singing like some "funky cat up in the mountains"
Heroes as 5 minutes of different versions of You Are My Sunshine
Vosse even puts the Wind Chimes outro in the context of the Elements

Its hard to remember stuff correctly from then with the Vosse Posse always being high out of their minds.

That's too simple an excuse for me. It's a stereotype that weed just makes you have a bad memory, and it's looking more and more likely that that's simple a old wive's tale and not actually the case.

[Jeff]

Let's not get sidetracked on the pot discussion again.

The thing about Vosse is  that he was interviewed not all that long after the sessions, the interview was lengthy, and he was a lot more detailed in his descriptions of things than many others were.  So I think he has some credibility, or at least the article does.

[SMiLE Brian]

The descriptions of things from Brian's friends are always really bizarre.

Cabinessence with Dennis singing like some "funky cat up in the mountains"
Heroes as 5 minutes of different versions of You Are My Sunshine
Vosse even puts the Wind Chimes outro in the context of the Elements

Its hard to remember stuff correctly from then with the Vosse Posse always being high out of their minds.

That's too simple an excuse for me. It's a stereotype that weed just makes you have a bad memory, and it's looking more and more likely that that's simple a old wive's tale and not actually the case.

I agree on the weed part and don't need to go any further about drugs, i thought they mostly using LSD and Amphetamine pills. Maybe Brian was shifting around every musical element on the album in different orders.

[Chris Brown]

Let's not get sidetracked on the pot discussion again.

The thing about Vosse is  that he was interviewed not all that long after the sessions, the interview was lengthy, and he was a lot more detailed in his descriptions of things than many others were.  So I think he has some credibility, or at least the article does.

Absolutely - Vosse and Anderle are the best contemporary sources of Smile info that we'll ever have, aside from two guys named Brian and Van Dyke.  Drugs or no drugs, they spent the most time around Brian during this period, serving as his primary sounding board for new ideas and things he was recording.  That gives them a ton of credibility in my mind.

[ghost]

The opposite is true of what has been expressed here. It's more likely that their memories of the music is of greater precision than many other sober listeners. The Vosse Posse were Brian's lab animals. He got them high and studied their reactions to his new mind blowing music. The way he described the end of Wind Chimes in that interview mentioned here shows - this guy clearly knew exactly what it was he was hearing & could recall it in vivid detail [not to mention summarizing it beautifully for us].

[ghost]

Oh and the reason is that if they were all on good vibrations and hearing Brian playing back tapes of fragments or partial mixes over & over again as I imagine he did, in conjunction with their mutual interest/unsaid request.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeYi0RA2_7A

No one ever talks about how trippy the drums to Heroes & Villains are - in the mono mix you just hear that snare, it's foreshadowing Love You - Brian Wilson has a bizarre sense of percussion. He made it abstract - look at Cabinessence. Or A Thing Or Two - the drums drop to nothing but a few hi hats in the riff. On Heroes the snare has a spacey sound, like Syd Barrett played it. Then it just disappears. Was any group doing anything like this in 1967? I don't know, I don't listen to much from that time period. I know of a good amount but don't obsess on it. Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains are rock & roll but entirely transcend rock and roll. In fact Heroes has a sort of primordial rock chug to it in its own bizarre signature BW trippy piano style sense of ryhythm way. In the chorus it completely drops out. Then back into the weird acid barber shop rock & roll. The Four Freshmen, on speed. Crying, at the beauty of their sound. Tears fallign down their cheeks. Wiiiiiiiiiiiiind Chiiiiiiiiiiiimes. Now and then, a post falls off my mind.

[monicker]

Let's not get sidetracked on the pot discussion again.

The thing about Vosse is  that he was interviewed not all that long after the sessions, the interview was lengthy, and he was a lot more detailed in his descriptions of things than many others were.  So I think he has some credibility, or at least the article does.

Absolutely - Vosse and Anderle are the best contemporary sources of Smile info that we'll ever have, aside from two guys named Brian and Van Dyke.  Drugs or no drugs, they spent the most time around Brian during this period, serving as his primary sounding board for new ideas and things he was recording.  That gives them a ton of credibility in my mind.

I've said this before: Diane Rovell

[Chris Brown]

Let's not get sidetracked on the pot discussion again.

The thing about Vosse is  that he was interviewed not all that long after the sessions, the interview was lengthy, and he was a lot more detailed in his descriptions of things than many others were.  So I think he has some credibility, or at least the article does.

Absolutely - Vosse and Anderle are the best contemporary sources of Smile info that we'll ever have, aside from two guys named Brian and Van Dyke.  Drugs or no drugs, they spent the most time around Brian during this period, serving as his primary sounding board for new ideas and things he was recording.  That gives them a ton of credibility in my mind.

I've said this before: Diane Rovell

Slipped my mind, but you're absolutely right, she belongs on the list too, although I still rank the other two a little higher since their contemporary thoughts on the subject are available for all to read.  Still, I'm sure Diane knows things about Smile that nobody else does, and one can hope that the box set interviews might expose some of them.

[UK_Surf]

Great contribution Catbridman - Vosse's interviews are an endless source of insight. And it reminds us that despite the insights that TSS will shed on Smile, it will raise as many, or more questions. Much of Smile will remain, as it always has, unrecoverable.

In artistic processes transitional versions of great work gets lost, often for frustratingly arbitrary reasons. But I'm hoping that H&V A-B will be based on a new or previously unknown (or partially known) archival find. The revelations of recent years (Humble Harv demo, IIGS instrumental, 66 comp reel, etc) prove that it's possible!

[ghost]

I've not said this before: Banana & Louie.

Those two dogs were shitting all over the sandbox during Smile. They probably heard tons of fragments that never even made it to recording but were in BW's head at the time. Those dogs have a lot they could tell us. But will they? People around Brian are eerily silent on many issues, preferring the official story even when it covers an entire range of years under one petty excuse/story that explains it all away. Dogs are different - dogs are honest. A dog's intentions are always clear - man is split double sided in his brain, he is devious and cunning. A dog is just a dog. It walks around and barks and sniffs things and poops.

[guitarfool2002]

Great contribution Catbridman - Vosse's interviews are an endless source of insight. And it reminds us that despite the insights that TSS will shed on Smile, it will raise as many, or more questions. Much of Smile will remain, as it always has, unrecoverable.

In artistic processes transitional versions of great work gets lost, often for frustratingly arbitrary reasons. But I'm hoping that H&V A-B will be based on a new or previously unknown (or partially known) archival find. The revelations of recent years (Humble Harv demo, IIGS instrumental, 66 comp reel, etc) prove that it's possible!

I was actually the one who posted that Vosse excerpt thinking the Vosse comments on Heroes all but confirmed a Part 1/Part 2, A-side/B-side structure at least at one point in time when Vosse remembered it being that way. And he also confirms Van Dyke was still active in the project whenever that was being done. But I also read between the lines to think it may have been planned that way as a two-sided two-part structure but perhaps never materialized beyond a test mix or even a plan.

However, remember the often-cited quote from Chuck Britz where he all but confirms the same thing, a part 1/part 2 idea. Together with Vosse, they were first-person witnesses to what was being recorded and planned, it's hard to debate what they've said about it.

[Cam Mott]

Great contribution Catbridman - Vosse's interviews are an endless source of insight. And it reminds us that despite the insights that TSS will shed on Smile, it will raise as many, or more questions. Much of Smile will remain, as it always has, unrecoverable.

In artistic processes transitional versions of great work gets lost, often for frustratingly arbitrary reasons. But I'm hoping that H&V A-B will be based on a new or previously unknown (or partially known) archival find. The revelations of recent years (Humble Harv demo, IIGS instrumental, 66 comp reel, etc) prove that it's possible!

I was actually the one who posted that Vosse excerpt thinking the Vosse comments on Heroes all but confirmed a Part 1/Part 2, A-side/B-side structure at least at one point in time when Vosse remembered it being that way. And he also confirms Van Dyke was still active in the project whenever that was being done. But I also read between the lines to think it may have been planned that way as a two-sided two-part structure but perhaps never materialized beyond a test mix or even a plan.

However, remember the often-cited quote from Chuck Britz where he all but confirms the same thing, a part 1/part 2 idea. Together with Vosse, they were first-person witnesses to what was being recorded and planned, it's hard to debate what they've said about it.

Which is also consistent with VDP's comments which tend to put the supposed lyric "confrontation" in March '67 instead of December '66.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Let's not get sidetracked on the pot discussion again.

The thing about Vosse is  that he was interviewed not all that long after the sessions, the interview was lengthy, and he was a lot more detailed in his descriptions of things than many others were.  So I think he has some credibility, or at least the article does.

He was interviewed post 20/20, so that's at least 20 months after Smile was canned, more likely some two years, and his claim that "Cabin Essence" had been totally re-recorded because Brian could now hear in stereo after his recent operation blows a huge hole in his credibility as far as I'm concerned.

[Jeff]

Let's not get sidetracked on the pot discussion again.

The thing about Vosse is  that he was interviewed not all that long after the sessions, the interview was lengthy, and he was a lot more detailed in his descriptions of things than many others were.  So I think he has some credibility, or at least the article does.

He was interviewed post 20/20, so that's at least 20 months after Smile was canned, more likely some two years, and his claim that "Cabin Essence" had been totally re-recorded because Brian could now hear in stereo after his recent operation blows a huge hole in his credibility as far as I'm concerned.

I know nothing about that claim, but it seems to me that getting that wrong does not significantly damage his credibility on the Heroes quote.  With Cabin Essnece, he was probably repeating something that he was told or thought he was told.  With Heroes, he actually heard the song.  And he demonstrated in other places in the article that he was able to remember bits that we know were recorded.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Let's not get sidetracked on the pot discussion again.

The thing about Vosse is  that he was interviewed not all that long after the sessions, the interview was lengthy, and he was a lot more detailed in his descriptions of things than many others were.  So I think he has some credibility, or at least the article does.

He was interviewed post 20/20, so that's at least 20 months after Smile was canned, more likely some two years, and his claim that "Cabin Essence" had been totally re-recorded because Brian could now hear in stereo after his recent operation blows a huge hole in his credibility as far as I'm concerned.

I know nothing about that claim, but it seems to me that getting that wrong does not significantly damage his credibility on the Heroes quote.  With Cabin Essnece, he was probably repeating something that he was told or thought he was told.  With Heroes, he actually heard the song.  And he demonstrated in other places in the article that he was able to remember bits that we know were recorded.

He'd heard "Cabin Essence" as well, and thought the 20/20 track was a new recording. Stacking up the article with what we know to be true, his hit rate is about 50%. 

[Cam Mott]

It seems he probably muffed his recall/knowledge of CE but with H&V we have other confirming sources.

[buddhahat]

I think the evidence is pretty stacked in favour of there being a 2 parted Heroes, and its representation on TSS speaks volumes imo.

[Cam Mott]

The best evidence has just sort of been overlooked through the years: there are coincidental recordings for a record master for H&V and a record master for H&V Part/Side 2/II.

[seanmurd]

I think the evidence is pretty stacked in favour of there being a 2 parted Heroes, and its representation on TSS speaks volumes imo.

I want to agree, but if what they are calling "Heroes And Villains, Part 1" and "Part 2" was really an historically-accurate "canon" version (even if reconstructed from an acetate), wouldn't it be somewhere on the box set CDs? To kind of hide it on the 2-CD version (and the vinyl single) makes it seem like they're deliberately downplaying its significance.

[UK_Surf]

I was actually the one who posted that Vosse excerpt thinking the Vosse comments on Heroes all but confirmed a Part 1/Part 2, A-side/B-side structure at least at one point in time when Vosse remembered it being that way. And he also confirms Van Dyke was still active in the project whenever that was being done. But I also read between the lines to think it may have been planned that way as a two-sided two-part structure but perhaps never materialized beyond a test mix or even a plan.

However, remember the often-cited quote from Chuck Britz where he all but confirms the same thing, a part 1/part 2 idea. Together with Vosse, they were first-person witnesses to what was being recorded and planned, it's hard to debate what they've said about it.

Sorry GF, my bad.

I agree with your argument, but whether or not there is any audio record of the Part 1/2 idea beyond what has already been booted is not known as far as I'm aware.  There may have been in some form - but tape gets erased,  binned,  and stolen, so I'm really hoping that an acetate has emerged that will allow ML et al to reconstruct a version. I'm not holding my breath though....

It will be interesting to see how all of this is framed in the booklet. I think the approach will be fairly transparent and geek-centric, based on the interviews etc. so far.

[The Demon]

I think the evidence is pretty stacked in favour of there being a 2 parted Heroes, and its representation on TSS speaks volumes imo.

I want to agree, but if what they are calling "Heroes And Villains, Part 1" and "Part 2" was really an historically-accurate "canon" version (even if reconstructed from an acetate), wouldn't it be somewhere on the box set CDs? To kind of hide it on the 2-CD version (and the vinyl single) makes it seem like they're deliberately downplaying its significance.

It depends on what kind of experience they're trying to create.  If you get the free digital download with the box, then it ends up in with all the other material anyway.  The packaging/formatting is just for fun.  And placing the material on a 45 might seem insignificant to some of us, but it could be their intention to show a lot of significance by doing so.  Perhaps it's their way of letting you get some kind of Smile experience as if the album and any related singles had come out in the 60s.  I see those 45s as a role playing exercise to give you that experience, as is replicating the original LP sleeve and booklet.  In packaging they're treating this like any box set for a popular, released LP (like Dark Side of the Moon, for instance).  It's the actual tracks that show you this was unfinished.  The whole thing is for fans who know what the deal is, and they want us to get a Smile experience instead of feeling like we're just looking at cataloged bits of sound.

[37!ws]

(as opposed to the analog download???) I hope if there is a download that it's available in a lossless format...