Anatomy of a recording session:Cutting WIBN at Gold Star

[Mark H.]

Kudos for a great thread!  Really enjoyed that.

[NimrodsSon]

Aeijtzsche, I've probably asked the question a million times in the past, but I don't think I quite understand how reverb from the chamber would be added to the instruments being recorded. I guess this is the impression I'm getting of how it works. Tell me if I'm correct or way off. Is the signal from the microphones outputted to a speaker in the echo chamber (which is miked somewhere in the room, depending on the amount of reverb you want), and the signal from the microphone in the echo chamber then inputted back into the console, and the proportions of wet/dry controlled at the console?

[audiodrome]

I attempted to capture this song in the studio with my Beach Boys tribute band, All Summer Long, a couple of years ago and I think we came pretty close.

On the REAL version, I think for the intro, they probably used some kind of "mando-guitar" (I know Fender made one back then) for the top part and a regular electric for the second lower part. On my version, I just used my Rickenbacker 360, finger-picked, for both parts. In the part after the bridge, although we did use real accordions (and saxophones), we didn't have anyone who could pull off the "bellow-shakes," so I faked it with mandolins! By the way, is the segment where Frank Marocco shows Brian this technique somewhere on the SOT Pet Sounds Sessions or the PS Sessions Box Set?

Feel free to check it out our version and see what you think:

http://www.audiodrome.net/ASL-WouldntItBeNice(Mono).mp3

[b.dfzo]

I attempted to capture this song in the studio with my Beach Boys tribute band, All Summer Long, a couple of years ago and I think we came pretty close.

On the REAL version, I think for the intro, they probably used some kind of "mando-guitar" (I know Fender made one back then) for the top part and a regular electric for the second lower part. On my version, I just used my Rickenbacker 360, finger-picked, for both parts. In the part after the bridge, although we did use real accordions (and saxophones), we didn't have anyone who could pull off the "bellow-shakes," so I faked it with mandolins! By the way, is the segment where Frank Marocco shows Brian this technique somewhere on the SOT Pet Sounds Sessions or the PS Sessions Box Set?

Feel free to check it out our version and see what you think:

http://www.audiodrome.net/ASL-WouldntItBeNice(Mono).mp3

  Amazing!  It makes me think of an old saying, from Jeff Tweedy - "Why...wouldn't you...wanna live...in this world?"  You've no reason to feel despondant about your music making abilities.  Amazing amazing amazing!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Is the signal from the microphones outputted to a speaker in the echo chamber (which is miked somewhere in the room, depending on the amount of reverb you want), and the signal from the microphone in the echo chamber then inputted back into the console, and the proportions of wet/dry controlled at the console?

Yeah, that's about right.  It's my understanding that at that point, the echo send knob would turn down the dry signal as you turned it up.  So if I turn up the echo send 20%, it would turn down the dry sound to 80% of it's original volume.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

By the way, is the segment where Frank Marocco shows Brian this technique somewhere on the SOT Pet Sounds Sessions or the PS Sessions Box Set?

No, it must have happned before the tape was rolling.

Your cover is very, very good.

[JRauch]

  audiodrome, that is one of the best BB-covers I have ever heard!!! Respect. Honestly, RESPECT!!!

[c-man]

This week in music history...from the Musicians' Friend mailing list...

1984, Gold Star Recording Studios where Phil Spector cut most of his monster hits is demolished to make way for a mini-mall that features a Del Taco stand...

C-Man

[c-man]

Regarding the intro to "WIBN"...funny that so many people over the years (including, I think, Tom Petty in an interview) have concluded that a harp was used, while others (such as whoever charted the songs in the "Stack o' Tracks" booklet) deduced that it was an electric piano.  If you just sit down with an electric guitar and play the parts, you can produce somethng really close to the recorded sound (as I did some years back just for research purposes, and as Audiodrome obviously did on his cover version).  The second guitar, the one playing the support role, sounds REALLY "plucky".  Just from playing up high on the neck, you can get that sound.  As for the main part, yes Audiodrome, I think it probably is an electric Mando-guitar, or something very similar.

Good job BTW Audiodrome.  If ever I was to make a biopic movie on The Boys, I would want to lease your version for the soundtrack! 

C-Man

[c-man]

Great thread! I look forward to reading more. I never kknew Carol used a Super Reverb. I have a super and a precision, but it doesn't sound that great through it (I guess it's my settings). It sounds much better through my Twin Reverb. Any tips on what settings to use?

And to get close to Carol's sound...make sure you use a pick, like she did.

C-Man

[c-man]

I have a question about the drum mic'ing. If it were one overheard, and one a few feet off of the kick, did they ever experience any problems with the volume surges of either tom or cymbal? Often when I've recorded our drums in a similar mic'ing technique we've encountered problems with the cymbals. Could this be why cymbals are rarely used heavily in Brian's sessions?

Yes, there's an online interview with Mark L. somewhere...I think discussing "SMiLE" 2004...and he says that's why they used so little hi-hat in those days, and piled on tambourine instead for the 4-to-the-bar beats...the cymbals in general, including but not limited to hi-hat, would just wash over everything due to leakage.

-Man

[Alex M]

This week in music history...from the Musicians' Friend mailing list...

1984, Gold Star Recording Studios where Phil Spector cut most of his monster hits is demolished to make way for a mini-mall that features a Del Taco stand...

C-Man

Seconded. Amazing!

Cheers,
Alex

[c-man]

<< The Percussion, played by Frankie Capp, would have consisted of what sounds like a tamborine, and a set of Timpani. >>

In addition to tambourine and tympani, Frankie also played the little orchestra bells in the bridge.

C-Man

[yrplace]

Is the signal from the microphones outputted to a speaker in the echo chamber (which is miked somewhere in the room, depending on the amount of reverb you want), and the signal from the microphone in the echo chamber then inputted back into the console, and the proportions of wet/dry controlled at the console?

Yeah, that's about right.  It's my understanding that at that point, the echo send knob would turn down the dry signal as you turned it up.  So if I turn up the echo send 20%, it would turn down the dry sound to 80% of it's original volume.

 

 Not quite. The echo send is just another mix buss(es)  that feeds  the chamber (at Goldstar). The mic. in the chamber is amplified and returned to the console and added to the particular tape buss (output) that is feeding a track on the (3 track) tape machine. As you increase the echo send on a given mic the level sent to the chamber increases and more reverb is added to the combination of that mic and others going to the same buss (output). The echo sends are almost always post (after) the main chl fader (certainly that way at Goldstar) so that if you increase the volume of the input, the amont of echo on that input also increases. So when you increase the echo send knob you are only adding echo (reverb) not reducing the direct signal. This btw is how it is still done, although on many later consoles (and on DAWs) you can put the echo sends into pre-fader mode which makes the send level entirely independant of the "dry" fader.

Regarding the intro of WIBN, whatever the instrument it was fed direct into the Goldstar console and the only musician in the tracking room that could hear it was Hal Blaine who needed it to being in the rest of the band. You can hear a discussion about this on the DVD-A and the sessions box where someone is suggesting that Hal do a count off and Larry Levine says he can't because it would be heard over the guitar intro. A bazouki is unlikely on the intro since it is an acoustic instrument, and nothing else plays on the intro but the direct guitar.

Lastly unlike Western Goldstar didn't have any compressors in their recording studio, just in the mastreing room... so no compression would have been used on the session.


Mark

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Thanks for your comments, Mark.

Not quite.

I was just basing my understanding of the echo send system based on what I've read from interviews of Larry.  He discussed how when it started, the chamber reverb was "designed" to create a "distant" effect, so the send know was designed to roll off the dry signal proportionately to the wet sound being added.  But he might have been talking about the 50s for all I know.

Lastly unlike Western Goldstar didn't have any compressors in their recording studio, just in the mastreing room... so no compression would have been used on the session.

Neat info.  Do you have any idea how a compressor would have been used on a backing track session at Western, then?  I'd just really like to know if it was ever used for big instrumental sessions at all, and if it was, if they used it for individual instruments or if it was strapped across an output buss.

Any other corrections or wrong info I need to change that you can see, Mark?

[Rerun]

I could care less about the boards splitting up as long as we get gold like this thread.

[audiodrome]

Yeah Aeijtzche - great thread - lots of great info! This is the perfect BB song to dissect - there's so many interesting sounds.

The "mando-guitar thing" got me thinking about the trio of guitars that play those beautiful harmony/counterpoint lines throughout the verses of "You Still Believe In Me" - one or more of those have a very similar sound to the intro of WIBN. Could be the same instrument?

Also thank you very much for the nice response to my version, guys!

So I can't resist - here's another one for you:

http://www.audiodrome.net/ASL-ICanHearMusic.mp3

I apologize for going off from the thread a little here... 

[b.dfzo]

Yeah Aeijtzche - great thread - lots of great info! This is the perfect BB song to dissect - there's so many interesting sounds.

The "mando-guitar thing" got me thinking about the trio of guitars that play those beautiful harmony/counterpoint lines throughout the verses of "You Still Believe In Me" - one or more of those have a very similar sound to the intro of WIBN. Could be the same instrument?

Also thank you very much for the nice response to my version, guys!

So I can't resist - here's another one for you:

http://www.audiodrome.net/ASL-ICanHearMusic.mp3

I apologize for going off from the thread a little here... 

We'll have to start an anatomy thread for "ICHM" now!  This is great stuff.

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

I could care less about the boards splitting up as long as we get gold like this thread.

There is gold, and a multitude of rubies: but the lips of knowledge are a precious jewel.  Proverbs 20:15

[Octave Doctor]

Best topic ever. Thanks, aeijtzsche! Your posts in this thread should be turned into a webpage of their own.

[yrplace]

Thanks for your comments, Mark.

Not quite.

I was just basing my understanding of the echo send system based on what I've read from interviews of Larry.  He discussed how when it started, the chamber reverb was "designed" to create a "distant" effect, so the send know was designed to roll off the dry signal proportionately to the wet sound being added.  But he might have been talking about the 50s for all I know.

Lastly unlike Western Goldstar didn't have any compressors in their recording studio, just in the mastreing room... so no compression would have been used on the session.

Neat info.  Do you have any idea how a compressor would have been used on a backing track session at Western, then?  I'd just really like to know if it was ever used for big instrumental sessions at all, and if it was, if they used it for individual instruments or if it was strapped across an output buss.

Any other corrections or wrong info I need to change that you can see, Mark?

At Western they had a compressor across each buss which could be switched in as desired (and it often was) . The console in ST. 3 had  high impedance busses and direct outputs from single chls were not possible, so only the busses could have had compression added. The next generation of console in Studio 2 had a transformer on each chl which allowed a patch between the input module and the three track buss. This may explain why the Studio 3 console was modified to have a fourth buss at some point, but the Studio 2 console (which I've owned for 15 years) never needed the mod and was in fact used for 8 track sessions until 1969 when it was taken out of ST. 2 and retired.

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

Best topic ever. Thanks, aeijtzsche! Your posts in this thread should be turned into a webpage of their own.

With his permission, that could certainly happen.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

With his permission, that could certainly happen.

You have my permission.

At Western they had a compressor across each buss which could be switched in as desired (and it often was) .

Mark, if you're still following along, when they switched in a compressor across a buss, do you suppose it would be something fairly light?  I'm assuming the compressors were "prototype" 1167s or something similar, and as such only had the preset ratios, 4:1, 8:1, 12:1, and 20:1.  It's so hard to tell without being able to listen to the individual tracks, but I've thought that there might be some 4:1 or even 8:1 on many of the horn tracks?  Otherwise, maybe some 4:1 with fairly generous release values?

[mike thornton]

"I could care less about the boards splitting up as long as we get gold like this thread."

not to disparage the j's, but i went over to the new ss board a couple of times and didn't care for it.

this thread reminds me a lot of the old ss board circa 2000, where highly informative threads like this were the norm. only *now*, this board is even better. i'm extremely grateful to the principals for adding to the knowledge base and for members like josh who provide accessible distillations such as this thread.

audiodrome-great stuff!!!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Mark, one more question to help clarify my "article":  Do you have any information regarding the D.I. boxes of the time?  Proprietary in-house kind of things, or were there DI boxes on the market?

Edit:  Actually two more questions, the second is:  Do you know anything about the "sidecar" mixer Larry has mentioned that allowed more than the 12-inputs on the board, and how many inputs that added?