SPOILER!!- Heroes and Villains and Good Vibrations from TSS

[monicker]

They didn't change the key of the reprise on BWPS though.

[joshferrell]

I just took both tracks,the milliscond jusst beforre H&V and the millisecond before GV and reversed them and slowed them down by a trillion and bi-golly the sound before H&V is the complete works of william shakespare and the sound before GV is the completee bible with all the commentaries and gnostic/apocraphal books,,,,I also notice what sounded like like a slight millisecond blip on my BWPS-Beautiful Dreamer movie right as Brian is saying that he saw "playBoy" that day and decided to anylize it and low and behold there is a hidden easter egg that contained all the playboy issues up to that point..

[tansen]

They didn't change the key of the reprise on BWPS though.

I know, which kind of proves my point. Because the key that the the snippet of sound has before GV is in a different key to the Beach Boys version of 'Our Prayer'.

[monicker]

I don't have my copy of BWPS handy. The BWPS Prayer and the original '66 Prayer are in different keys? I don't remember them being in different keys. I don't remember anything on BWPS being in a different key than its '66/'67 counterpart, except that new modulation at the end of Song For Children.

[tansen]

I don't have my copy of BWPS handy. The BWPS Prayer and the original '66 Prayer are in different keys? I don't remember them being in different keys. I don't remember anything on BWPS being in a different key than its '66/'67 counterpart, except that new modulation at the end of Song For Children.

Actually, you are right! They are in the same key, but the key of the tone heard before GV sounds somewhat slightly higher in pitch.
lol, what a conversation!

[monicker]

Haha, i don't think so. It's the same pitch. Also, i just heard the millisecond before H&V again, and i am positive that's the trombone. I will happily jump off of a cliff if it's not. With whatever comes before GV, i'm about 98.7% sure that's Our Prayer. These little games are totally pointless and fun. If anything, it's good ear training.

[runnersdialzero]

I really hope they didn't go as far as the "Our Prayer" reprisal before "Good Vibration". Those sorts of attempts to mirror BWPS on fan mixes strike me as, erm, ridiculous.

[Chris Brown]

I really hope they didn't go as far as the "Our Prayer" reprisal before "Good Vibration". Those sorts of attempts to mirror BWPS on fan mixes strike me as, erm, ridiculous.

I'm inclined to agree, although perhaps they're working under the assumption that Brian would have done something similar based on the comp reel they found with that particular section of "Our Prayer" spliced out. 

[Micha]

I really hope they didn't go as far as the "Our Prayer" reprisal before "Good Vibration". Those sorts of attempts to mirror BWPS on fan mixes strike me as, erm, ridiculous.

I'm inclined to agree, although perhaps they're working under the assumption that Brian would have done something similar based on the comp reel they found with that particular section of "Our Prayer" spliced out. 

I don't have the time to check it now, but I think it was not the spliced out section that was reprised on BWPS. And it wasn't spliced out on BWPS anyway.

And adding that reprise doesn't strike me ridiculous at all. (Actually on my old fan mixes I had the whole Prayer before Good Vibrations at the ending of the album. One of the few cases where I had songs at the same spot as on BWPS.)

[tansen]

If they do it, I hope they do it because that would have been what Brian intended originally. I don't really care for fanmixes, there need to be some kind of authority behind the mixes in my opinion. It's like random unknown artists covering famous songs - it hardly ever works well (in my book anyway).

[puni puni]

unknown to who?

[tansen]

unknown to who?

Unknown to more than a small amount of people.

[Micha]

If they do it, I hope they do it because that would have been what Brian intended originally. I don't really care for fanmixes, there need to be some kind of authority behind the mixes in my opinion. It's like random unknown artists covering famous songs - it hardly ever works well (in my book anyway).

I'm sure that was a 2004 decision. As Brian took the decisions how to finish SMiLE in 2004, this is all right with me. Even the 60+ Brian Wilson has enough authority to me to finish SMiLE, and he is more Brian Wilson than any of us ever will be.

[monicker]

If they do it, I hope they do it because that would have been what Brian intended originally. I don't really care for fanmixes, there need to be some kind of authority behind the mixes in my opinion. It's like random unknown artists covering famous songs - it hardly ever works well (in my book anyway).

I'm sure that was a 2004 decision. As Brian took the decisions how to finish SMiLE in 2004, this is all right with me. Even the 60+ Brian Wilson has enough authority to me to finish SMiLE, and he is more Brian Wilson than any of us ever will be.

I'm not insinuating that this is indeed what took place, but i want to ask a question to you and those of you who feel similarly about all this. How would you feel, that is, would you feel differently, if what actually took place was Darian making a suggestion, showing Brian a transition, and Brian saying yay or nay, rather than the genesis of an idea springing directly from Brian? And if we pretend for a moment that that was what indeed happened, hypothetically, would that be any different at all from Brian accepting or vetoing a fan mix? In a case like this, he'd be serving the role of producer more so than composer/arranger. Though it's a weird gray area considering that he did compose and arrange the blocks of music that were being fiddled around with to make sense of the puzzle. At any rate, fast forward to 2011, and IF Mark and Alan are indeed just taking cues from 2004, is it not essentially a fan mix of a fan mix, albeit with "official" approval from the man himself? That is, of course, assuming everything i've mentioned in hypothetical terms here were actually true. We don't really know and probably won't ever.

[lance]

But if he had finished it in 67, might not Carl or somebody played the Darian role? I mean, did Brian not have uncredited input from the others on a variety of issues? I got no problem with it. He made the puzzle pieces, someone helped him put them together. But I can see both sides.

[ThunderRyan]

Am I alone in wishing that for H&V they would've used the 'alternate version' lead vocal, at least in the first verse, instead of the normal single/SS lead? I always enjoyed the alternate version lead more, I feel it has a lot more gusto.

[Roger Ryan]

Am I alone in wishing that for H&V they would've used the 'alternate version' lead vocal, at least in the first verse, instead of the normal single/SS lead? I always enjoyed the alternate version lead more, I feel it has a lot more gusto.

It's likely that those vocals don't exist apart from the one tape that is a copy of the mixdown of the "alternate" version. They could have used it for the new mono version, but the sound quality would not be as good as the new mix and it would probably differ dramatically from how the other sections sounded.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

If they do it, I hope they do it because that would have been what Brian intended originally. I don't really care for fanmixes, there need to be some kind of authority behind the mixes in my opinion. It's like random unknown artists covering famous songs - it hardly ever works well (in my book anyway).

I'm sure that was a 2004 decision. As Brian took the decisions how to finish SMiLE in 2004, this is all right with me. Even the 60+ Brian Wilson has enough authority to me to finish SMiLE, and he is more Brian Wilson than any of us ever will be.

I'm not insinuating that this is indeed what took place, but i want to ask a question to you and those of you who feel similarly about all this. How would you feel, that is, would you feel differently, if what actually took place was Darian making a suggestion, showing Brian a transition, and Brian saying yay or nay, rather than the genesis of an idea springing directly from Brian? And if we pretend for a moment that that was what indeed happened, hypothetically, would that be any different at all from Brian accepting or vetoing a fan mix? In a case like this, he'd be serving the role of producer more so than composer/arranger. Though it's a weird gray area considering that he did compose and arrange the blocks of music that were being fiddled around with to make sense of the puzzle. At any rate, fast forward to 2011, and IF Mark and Alan are indeed just taking cues from 2004, is it not essentially a fan mix of a fan mix, albeit with "official" approval from the man himself? That is, of course, assuming everything i've mentioned in hypothetical terms here were actually true. We don't really know and probably won't ever.

Darian has consistently said that the order of the second movement was all Brian, and it happened almost instantaneously, basically Brian said, "that bit goes there, that bit goes there" That would suggest this was vintage sequencing

Also look at the original recording dates. Wonderful and Look were recorded within 2 weeks of each other. I've never thought Brian just randomly recorded songs and sections. Both were recorded near each other because he was working on them as part of a whole. I've always thought a lot of the sequencing clues can be found in the proximity of the recording dates. Brian was a pragmatic worker, in the early SMiLE period anyway. He worked on something, on a piano, in his head, then booked studio time.

The first movement though I can see being realized in the way you hypothesise, and I suspect the third movement was mainly Darian.

I'm happy with a lot of the sequence. There's enough vintage ideas and input from Brian to validate it as a worthy part of the SMiLE story in my eyes, and it is the only finished SMiLE we're ever going to have.

I think if we were to suddenly find ourselves in a parralel dimension where SMiLE had been finished in '67, we would be disappointed. Nothing can live up to the myth. As I said on another post recently though, that myth is more inspirational than any real album could be.

[FatherOfTheMan Sr101]

Am I alone in wishing that for H&V they would've used the 'alternate version' lead vocal, at least in the first verse, instead of the normal single/SS lead? I always enjoyed the alternate version lead more, I feel it has a lot more gusto.

It's likely that those vocals don't exist apart from the one tape that is a copy of the mixdown of the "alternate" version. They could have used it for the new mono version, but the sound quality would not be as good as the new mix and it would probably differ dramatically from how the other sections sounded.

I wish too, it has a rougher sound... thats what I use in my mixes...

[Ron]

I would just like to say, why would there be any doubt about what's before H&V, and before Good Vibrations?  We have the tracklist, plus we have the 2004 album, of course you can hear a trombone in front of H&V and the end of Prayer before Good Vibrations.  They're like that because Mark Linnett made them like that about 3 or 4 months ago. 

[runnersdialzero]

It's like random unknown artists covering famous songs - it hardly ever works well (in my book anyway).

Kind of a shitty attitude to have.

imo.

[Micha]

Am I alone in wishing that for H&V they would've used the 'alternate version' lead vocal, at least in the first verse, instead of the normal single/SS lead? I always enjoyed the alternate version lead more, I feel it has a lot more gusto.

You're not alone. It is certainly more edgy and I think it fits the lyric better.

It's likely that those vocals don't exist apart from the one tape that is a copy of the mixdown of the "alternate" version.

You're right, that's very likely.

They could have used it for the new mono version, but the sound quality would not be as good as the new mix and it would probably differ dramatically from how the other sections sounded.

The lalala verse for which they had to use the single mix does differ dramatically, so it would have been ok with me if the first verses did too!

[Micha]

If they do it, I hope they do it because that would have been what Brian intended originally. I don't really care for fanmixes, there need to be some kind of authority behind the mixes in my opinion. It's like random unknown artists covering famous songs - it hardly ever works well (in my book anyway).

I'm sure that was a 2004 decision. As Brian took the decisions how to finish SMiLE in 2004, this is all right with me. Even the 60+ Brian Wilson has enough authority to me to finish SMiLE, and he is more Brian Wilson than any of us ever will be.

I'm not insinuating that this is indeed what took place, but i want to ask a question to you and those of you who feel similarly about all this. How would you feel, that is, would you feel differently, if what actually took place was Darian making a suggestion, showing Brian a transition, and Brian saying yay or nay, rather than the genesis of an idea springing directly from Brian? And if we pretend for a moment that that was what indeed happened, hypothetically, would that be any different at all from Brian accepting or vetoing a fan mix?

No, I would not feel differently. If I remember correctly, the staccato bridge of God Only Knows was an idea from one of the musicians. That's roughly the same situation. If Brian had felt uncomfortable with any of the track order suggestions, he would have vetoed it. I remember reading that he vetoed He Gives Speeches right away.

[Matt Bielewicz]

Great point Micha, and I can make a similar one from the very core of the 1966 SMiLE recording sessions, too. If you listen to the verse tracking session for 'Heroes and Villians' (sic) from various SMiLE boots, you can hear Brian experimenting with the rhythmic pattern the cello is playing in the verse. Brian eventually tells him to go with the simplest pattern, but only after some back and forth with the cello player, who suggests various unsuccessful approaches before the final decision is made.

So yeah, the cello on the finished, 1967 single version of H&V, and all subsequent recorded versions and bootlegs, was actually the work of a session musician, and accepted by Brian. Does this diminish our love of H&V? Not one bit.

This sort of thing happens all the time when creative teams of people are working together on something that they're into and when they're firing on all cylinders. Songwriting partnerships through the ages have said that the best stuff they wrote often came about when one of them kick-started something, but it was then taken to another level by the creative back and forth between the partners. Often, the people involved in such work find it hard to say who exactly did which parts of whatever after the event. That's the very nature of creative collaboration.

I find it weird that people can give a flying pass to the creative collaborations Brian enjoyed with the Wrecking Crew from 1964-67 (to say nothing of the earlier work with Roger Christian, Gary Usher, Tony Asher et all), but baulk at work he carried out with Van Dyke and Darian Sahanaja in 2003. Even if you think that later collaboration features a diminished Brian, they were using as source material the work that an earlier, *prime-time Wilson* wrote. What's not to like, people...?

MattB

[Camus]

It's a bowed double bass on the track, rather than a cello.  I've always preferred the original Cantina version of H&V, the whole feel of the track works better for me and I prefer the version of the verses where Brian and Mike trade the lines.  That whole 'often wise' bit with the piano, the tape explosion and false barnyard - sublime.

I've never understood how the intro (now used for Fire) would ever work for H&V.  It just doesn't seem to fit musically.  Like how Prayer musically doesn't work, whereas Your Welcome work's perfectly, both being in the key of Db and YW seems like a perfect opener to the album bearing in mind the album cover is a shop front.

Just my 2c worth.