SPOILER!!- Heroes and Villains and Good Vibrations from TSS

[The Heartical Don]

Well... Nov 1 it will be "Zahlzeit" for me...

Without the umlaut that translates as "paytime".

...which is exactly what I meant - my retailer will have the box by then...

[desmondo]

Sorry but on the TSS GV - I counted 32 bars from start of organ to when the boys fall off the edge of the cliff - they actually stop on the first beat of bar 32 - does that help?

Umm... I didn't count the bars on the TSS GV, so you may be right. I only counted the bars on SOT, 1966 single and 1990 "Good Vibrations (Various Sessions)". But the fact that the TSS GV has more bars than the original backing track heard on SOT makes clear that TSS GV has put more bars in there by editing. They just didn't do the "hiccup note" like on the 1990 edit.

What did help: I know now that I should have used the word "beat" instead of "mark". I just didn't find that word. The German word would be "Zählzeit". Sorry about that.

Cool - I missed your original post but I think its a good "muso" way to compare various mixes and edits - I love the "new" version of GV and its never been my favourite in the past

BTW the BWPS version has 40 bars of the organ hum de dum part

[Micha]

Anyway, I think it just *could* be that the 1990 edit which made that section longer led to the sequence we have now: The "Gotta keep those lovin' good..." part (those vocals being absent on the 1990 mix) followed by the Humbeedum part. A hypothetical 1966 mix that featured both vocal parts rather would have those vocal parts run simultaneously, because they were recorded over the same part of the backing track. I suspect though that the "Gotta keep those lovin' good..." replaced the Humbeedums. The latter start 4 bars later.

[David Kennedy]

yes, i'm sure it will turn up somewhere on the box... possibly as part of My Only Sunshine.

still, i think the "tape explosion" and the fade were essential parts of H&V, at least at one time.

I always thought the "tape explosion" was the best spot to put in "I'm In Great Shape" and "Barnyard."  I put it on one of my mixes and it seems to fit pretty well.

And as for "Barnshine" I like it after "Old Master Painter"  I hope there is a better version with Mike singing the "You make happy when skies are grey" parts on that early version. I have only heard it on one booted session track and it has a lot of  static.

[pixletwin]

I always assumed the HummBeeeDummms were removed because it made the single too longer for radio play than they wanted.

[The Heartical Don]

I always assumed the HummBeeeDummms were removed because it made the single too longer for radio play than they wanted.

Might be. I fell in love with the Humbeedums when I heard them first in 1981, on that U.S. rarities LP, with the bikini girl on the cover.

[guitarfool2002]

It was 32 bars on the "new" version just released this week, I mentioned that comparing it to the 24 bars of the session tapes which is where it all came from.

It would seem that the "long version" on that Smiley CD is a more modern edit. Unless something or someone can confirm or deny it, there is really no other way to explain the difference in times and lengths of that section other than to say they took part of what was originally a 24 bar section of music as recorded live in the studio then overdubbed with harmonica and "hum be dum" vocals, and grafted that onto the existing 24 bar section in order to create the newer mixes and include the "lost" vocal section.

I'm hoping within the liner notes of the box set we get information on where the various sections came from on this and other songs where similar work was done. It's been suggested that will be part of the package, because it gets pretty confusing and time-consuming trying to piece it all together going on pure speculation.

[WaxOn]

I always assumed the HummBeeeDummms were removed because it made the single too longer for radio play than they wanted.

I think that and it also ties in with the theme of SMiLE, which makes no sense out of the SMiLE context.

[Micha]

It would seem that the "long version" on that Smiley CD is a more modern edit. Unless something or someone can confirm or deny it, there is really no other way to explain the difference in times and lengths of that section other than to say they took part of what was originally a 24 bar section of music as recorded live in the studio then overdubbed with harmonica and "hum be dum" vocals, and grafted that onto the existing 24 bar section in order to create the newer mixes and include the "lost" vocal section.

So we do agree. Nice!

I always assumed the HummBeeeDummms were removed because it made the single too longer for radio play than they wanted.

So did I, and now I know we were wrong. The original backing track of that section has, as has been pointed out, the exact length as on the released single. Longer versions are due to modern day editing. That goes for the 1990 sessions edit and for the new TSS version.

For those who missed my post and like reading boring explanations, this is how they edited it in 1990:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10946.msg208203.html#msg208203

[ghost]

Listened again. The edits in Heroes despite what others have said are poor. Vintage BW edits are short, abrupt, jarring, unnerving even. Especially for Heroes & Villains as it saw release originally. Now...  

Compare the last chorus on the single version of Heroes, how it appears with such PRESENCE due to the edit.

[guitarfool2002]

It would seem that the "long version" on that Smiley CD is a more modern edit. Unless something or someone can confirm or deny it, there is really no other way to explain the difference in times and lengths of that section other than to say they took part of what was originally a 24 bar section of music as recorded live in the studio then overdubbed with harmonica and "hum be dum" vocals, and grafted that onto the existing 24 bar section in order to create the newer mixes and include the "lost" vocal section.

So we do agree. Nice!

I always assumed the HummBeeeDummms were removed because it made the single too longer for radio play than they wanted.

So did I, and now I know we were wrong. The original backing track of that section has, as has been pointed out, the exact length as on the released single. Longer versions are due to modern day editing. That goes for the 1990 sessions edit and for the new TSS version.

It is good to reach a consensus on this, I'm sorry if I was misunderstanding some of the details, but it would seem we are in agreement that the longer versions are more modern and not from 1966.

It is also fascinating to consider some firsthand reports from people who remember hearing Good Vibrations as a new single on the radio in Fall 1966 and hearing a shortened, edited version of it which radio stations may have done to fit into their formats and time limits. Someone here on this board remembered that specifically in Los Angeles, if I recall...maybe they can add to that part of the story if they're reading this thread. I'd like to hear a tape if one exists of exactly what editing was done by those stations.

[ghost]

It would seem that the "long version" on that Smiley CD is a more modern edit. Unless something or someone can confirm or deny it, there is really no other way to explain the difference in times and lengths of that section other than to say they took part of what was originally a 24 bar section of music as recorded live in the studio then overdubbed with harmonica and "hum be dum" vocals, and grafted that onto the existing 24 bar section in order to create the newer mixes and include the "lost" vocal section.

So we do agree. Nice!

I always assumed the HummBeeeDummms were removed because it made the single too longer for radio play than they wanted.

So did I, and now I know we were wrong. The original backing track of that section has, as has been pointed out, the exact length as on the released single. Longer versions are due to modern day editing. That goes for the 1990 sessions edit and for the new TSS version.

It is good to reach a consensus on this, I'm sorry if I was misunderstanding some of the details, but it would seem we are in agreement that the longer versions are more modern and not from 1966.

It is also fascinating to consider some firsthand reports from people who remember hearing Good Vibrations as a new single on the radio in Fall 1966 and hearing a shortened, edited version of it which radio stations may have done to fit into their formats and time limits. Someone here on this board remembered that specifically in Los Angeles, if I recall...maybe they can add to that part of the story if they're reading this thread. I'd like to hear a tape if one exists of exactly what editing was done by those stations.

it was a mix Mike Love circulated featuring a loop of him singing "i'm pickin up good vibrations , she's givin me excitations" over and over.

[Micha]

I always assumed the HummBeeeDummms were removed because it made the single too longer for radio play than they wanted.

Might be. I fell in love with the Humbeedums when I heard them first in 1981, on that U.S. rarities LP, with the bikini girl on the cover.

Oh, good that you point out that version. I wasn't aware of it anymore. That is a completely different backing track for this section, thus different vocal takes too. And the "Gotta keep.." vocals and the Humbeedums are both on it, simultaneously. But it is, like the final version, 24 bars long.

[ghost]

The humdrums make Good Vibes too churchy. It loses the beat to a mediocre wash of baptist hymnal chant. It's a cool piece for a concert context near the end of the show if it's been a good night and the crowd would dig melting into that sound for 40 bars or whatever it is, but it does not make a good single AT ALL.

[monicker]

Listened again. The edits in Heroes despite what others have said are poor. Vintage BW edits are short, abrupt, jarring, unnerving even. Especially for Heroes & Villains as it saw release originally. Now...  

Compare the last chorus on the single version of Heroes, how it appears with such PRESENCE due to the edit.

I agree with this and not simply because i am used to the old edits and am biased toward them, but because that is just how i listen to and prefer music, all music.

In the Smiley single version, right before the “I’ve been in this town so long,” the organ chord (which is mixed a lot louder in the single version, and sounds better) just cuts off abruptly leaving a void, whereas in this version, the organ trails off because of the reverb. That spot in the single version sounds amazing and revolutionary. Now it sounds a little common. 

But you know, i am a big fan of alternate versions/mixes/arrangements, etc. so i am always happy with yet another version of a recording. This is still the best composer/arranger/producer recording his best music at his peak.

Ghost, you should gingerly remove the cap of your skull, take your brain out, put it on a table, take a fine, sharp, clean blade, slice down the middle of your brain and open it up to the humdedums, they transcend everything. 

[Mr. Cohen]

Let's face it, the people mixing Smile presently are very talented. But they aren't Brian Wilson circa 1966. If they're going to piece together their own versions, it probably won't be as amazing as what Brian would've thought up. It's like we're getting the ultimate fan mix, which is still very cool.

Maybe they should've hired Purple Chick to help out?

[Iron Horse-Apples]

It's the leads in and out of  the choruses I'm having trouble getting used to, and I have problems with the Hawthorne mix for the same reason.

When the acapella vocal comes in with that key change into the chorus, that backing track should cut out when the vocal slows down, not fade out. Without the organ this doesn't work, but it could have of they'd muted the track here rather than faded it.

Then in the lead out of the chorus back into the verse, those backing vocals should fade out and the cello should come up here, to do the job of the missing Baldwin.

That's what I'd have done anyway.

But then, I don't think Disk 1 is really aimed at us. A mix of the album as an albumwas necessary to sell this box to Joe Pubic. The sessions are for us

So Mark, if you're reading this, great work, but you knew the old adage would be true

You can please most people some of the time, but you can't please SMiLE fans, none of the time

[monicker]

It's the leads in and out of  the choruses I'm having trouble getting used to, and I have problems with the Hawthorne mix for the same reason.

When the acapella vocal comes in with that key change into the chorus, that backing track should cut out when the vocal slows down, not fade out. Without the organ this doesn't work, but it could have of they'd muted the track here rather than faded it.

Then in the lead out of the chorus back into the verse, those backing vocals should fade out and the cello should come up here, to do the job of the missing Baldwin.

That's what I'd have done anyway.

But then, I don't think Disk 1 is really aimed at us. A mix of the album as an albumwas necessary to sell this box to Joe Pubic. The sessions are for us

So Mark, if you're reading this, great work, but you knew the old adage would be true

You can please most people some of the time, but you can't please SMiLE fans, none of the time

Fades = safe. Hard cuts = not safe. Disc 1 is most probably playing it safe. Fukk Joe Public. I'm tired of Joe Public. And of Helvetica. Monoculture is suffocating.

[changeng]

I think 5/11/66 was the first recording session of H&V?

If so, does anyone know if that session can be found on anything out there?

[monicker]

So i just noticed that the little organ fills during the trombone line at the end of the verses that were Smiley overdubs ARE to be found in this new version. Once--only at the end of the peace in the valley verse. It’s there. But it’s not in the first verse of the song. I wonder what the reason for this is.

[Micha]

So i just noticed that the little organ fills during the trombone line at the end of the verses that were Smiley overdubs ARE to be found in this new version. Once--only at the end of the peace in the valley verse. It’s there. But it’s not in the first verse of the song. I wonder what the reason for this is.

Easy: it seems it was dubbed onto the verses during mixdown. That's why it's not on the multitracks which they used for the first verses. They didn't have the multitracks for the peace in the valley verse. So they had to use the single mix for that section, and that has the organ.

[monicker]

So i just noticed that the little organ fills during the trombone line at the end of the verses that were Smiley overdubs ARE to be found in this new version. Once--only at the end of the peace in the valley verse. It’s there. But it’s not in the first verse of the song. I wonder what the reason for this is.

Easy: it seems it was dubbed onto the verses during mixdown. That's why it's not on the multitracks which they used for the first verses. They didn't have the multitracks for the peace in the valley verse. So they had to use the single mix for that section, and that has the organ.

Doh! Good call. I wasn't thinking hard.

[pobbard]

It's been suggested that will be part of the package, because it gets pretty confusing and time-consuming trying to piece it all together going on pure speculation.

Yes, but don't we all really enjoy that part of it? 

[monicker]

Bridge to indians is rushed in this new version. There needs to be that tiny gap of silence between the end of the chorus and that a cappella part. Here we hear bridge to indians start over the trailing off the cello tremolo. BWPS got this transition "right."

[GeorgeFellInHisHorn]

Bridge to indians is rushed in this new version. There needs to be that tiny gap of silence between the end of the chorus and that a cappella part. Here we hear bridge to indians start over the trailing off the cello tremolo. BWPS got this transition "right."

I have to respectfully disagree. I personally enjoyed the smoothness of the transition