SPOILER!!- Heroes and Villains and Good Vibrations from TSS

[ghost]

No calls from Kartoffeln
Parks or Grillo

[Shady]

It's been said the H&V, GV versions we have are low quality mps..

The one Brian's people accidentally posted on his facebook page sound far superior

I'd hold off on hanging Mark from the gallows till at least October 31st

[monicker]

Is it really possible that Linnet unintentionally clipped the start of the la la la part? I'm an absolute novice, and use audacity to do Smile edits. It's pretty easy to see where a section begins and ends from the waveforms, right? Surely it would be a colossal gaff for Linett to accidentally chop the start of a section out? He'd have to be editing blindfolded, or drunk or both.

Exactly. Editing, in general, is pretty easy. You just need to rely mostly on good ears.

And this wouldn't be the first colossal f*ck up. Beginning of BWPS Our Prayer anyone?  

What's wrong with our prayer?! Damn I vowed to stay out of this thread!

HUGE UGLY PROTOOLS GLITCH RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING UGHHHHH

Pro Tools is not the culprit. It has nothing to do with PT.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

And if you've ever been in this situation, you may recall that sometimes it takes fresh ears, an outside opinion, a friend, etc. to help point out something to you that you no longer can hear, that you've overlooked, because you are so inside of the thing. 

He did! He got Brian round to listen and Brian said yeah great. Then they invited a complete stranger off the street in, and this time even he liked H&V.

Say what? Mark Linett in 2011, 2010, or whenever it was at some recent point, got a stranger to come in to listen to H&V? Uhhh? Who? And where did you get this from? And, sorry, but i don't think that Brian in his late 60s is going to catch little details like this. I mean, you really think that when he was called in to approve of the final mix that he was sitting their intently with dog ears scrutinizing every second? 

Er.....it was a joke

[Micha]

Never heard about this. Could you be more specific? Water/Vater, German potato pun?

I just meant that "vater" is German for father, but it obviously sounds like "water."  It's something Van Dyke was probably aware of, considering the musical similarities between "Child" and "Dada," not to mention "Child" showing up in "Surf's Up" (water, again).  Water is the source, or father, of life.

The "Vega-Tables" line is the one I was referring to.  I'd seen someone point that out and they said that "kartoffen" was the word, so maybe it's a stretch since it should be "kartoffel" (though the other issue is that a potato isn't even a vegatable).  Still, a weird coincidence.  I guess we'd have to ask Van Dyke.  "Kartoffensell" could be a phonetic portmanteau of the German words "kartoffel" (potato) and "insel" (island).  Perhaps a subtle reference to America's German and Irish ("potato island") immigrants.

I think that is stretching things a bit. "water" always resembles "Vater", not just on SMiLE. It cannot be an intentional pun. "Vater" is BTW pronounced  "fater" in German.

And the Kartoffel and Insel bit seems really Da-Vinci-Codeish to me. "Music hall a cost..." at least sounds like "music holocaust", but the German words bit is really reading things into it. Try that with French words, you'll go insane.

[?]

Is it really possible that Linnet unintentionally clipped the start of the la la la part? I'm an absolute novice, and use audacity to do Smile edits. It's pretty easy to see where a section begins and ends from the waveforms, right? Surely it would be a colossal gaff for Linett to accidentally chop the start of a section out? He'd have to be editing blindfolded, or drunk or both.

Exactly. Editing, in general, is pretty easy. You just need to rely mostly on good ears.

And this wouldn't be the first colossal f*ck up. Beginning of BWPS Our Prayer anyone?  

What's wrong with our prayer?! Damn I vowed to stay out of this thread!

HUGE UGLY PROTOOLS GLITCH RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING UGHHHHH

Pro Tools is not the culprit. It has nothing to do with PT.

Re: Our Prayer, are you guys talking about the click about 41 seconds in or is there something else?

[theCOD]

It's a very noticeable click in the first second or two.

[buddhahat]

Go to 1:26 into the track...what's with that edit? You can still hear the fluttertone horn from another section

That's always been there, you can hear it on the Smiley version.

and it sounds like one of the "La's" got snipped.

I wouldn't say sniped, but the Smiley edit sounds cleaner to me than this one. Also, on a side note, the equivalent sections of the Smiley version have more energy than this one. Do an A/B. Also, i really miss the "circus" organ phrases at the end of the verses. They're so damn good.

That beautiful string coda is and always will be one of my favorite Smile sections or pieces of music in general. Best quality yet...awesome.

Yeah. It gives me the chills in this version.

But the hum de dum part of GV is my favorite piece of music in existence. Needless to say, i am happy about its inclusion.

 

Aargh I hate myself for getting involved in this. I don't think any of the las are snipped. If there is any problem (and this is wholly subjective) it's that on this new mix the las are coming in like 0.1 second earlier than the equivalent section on the Smiley version, so imo you lose a bit of that suspenseful delay (albeit  a minute bit) before the las drop in. There may well be a good reason for Mark doing it this way as others have suggested and I do not have the editing skills to pass judgement. FWIW I love this new mix but if I was to be uber nitpicky that's what I'd change. Presumably if one is inclined to do so it will be easy to make our own edits anyway, once the box is out.

[desmondo]

Go to 1:26 into the track...what's with that edit? You can still hear the fluttertone horn from another section

That's always been there, you can hear it on the Smiley version.

and it sounds like one of the "La's" got snipped.

I wouldn't say sniped, but the Smiley edit sounds cleaner to me than this one. Also, on a side note, the equivalent sections of the Smiley version have more energy than this one. Do an A/B. Also, i really miss the "circus" organ phrases at the end of the verses. They're so damn good.

That beautiful string coda is and always will be one of my favorite Smile sections or pieces of music in general. Best quality yet...awesome.

Yeah. It gives me the chills in this version.

But the hum de dum part of GV is my favorite piece of music in existence. Needless to say, i am happy about its inclusion.

 

Aargh I hate myself for getting involved in this. I don't think any of the las are snipped. If there is any problem (and this is wholly subjective) it's that on this new mix the las are coming in like 0.1 second earlier than the equivalent section on the Smiley version, so imo you lose a bit of that suspenseful delay (albeit  a minute bit) before the las drop in. There may well be a good reason for Mark doing it this way as others have suggested and I do not have the editing skills to pass judgement. FWIW I love this new mix but if I was to be uber nitpicky that's what I'd change. Presumably if one is inclined to do so it will be easy to make our own edits anyway, once the box is out.

The reason Mark has done it this way is because that's how it is on a 1966/67 BW mix or acetate - I don't know but it could be

[ghost]

There is absolutely no way any of the new Heroes is based with any degree of respectable accuracy on vintage BW edits. The man was a mad genius of edits - just listen to Smiley Smile. Mark Linnet's mix is unfortunately all Linnet.

[buddhahat]

There is absolutely no way any of the new Heroes is based with any degree of respectable accuracy on vintage BW edits. The man was a mad genius of edits - just listen to Smiley Smile. Mark Linnet's mix is unfortunately all Linnet.

i think Linnet's done some pretty tasty edits in the past, my favourite being Western theme coming straight out of Bicyle rider on the GV box Heroes Sections track. If I didn't know better I'd think it was based on a vintage Brian edit. Conversely vintage BW has done some clunkers - the fade in at the end of the Redwood Time To Get Alone springs to mind! I'm all for quirky old school editing but what's that all about?!

Mark obviously has a tough job with Smile as the amount he can innovate is pretty limited - it's really all about replicating and second guessing how Brian might have handled certain edits, taking cues from BWPS. As Shady pointed out we should probably wait until 1/11/11 before we start tearing the edits apart!

[chris.metcalfe]

I think he's got a tough job too, but I don't think it's to do with second guessing, replicating or anything else. I think it's about taking a mass of semi-listenable material and assembling it into the most commercial, publicly acceptable form possible for a major release on a major record label.
Forum members here forget that they are a tiny proportion of the number of people who will hear this album in November.
Kudos to Linett, Boyd et al for staying with Smile for 25 years.

[seanmurd]

So, I guess we're in the "backlash" phase for the new "Heroes And Villains," eh? I found that transition to the "la-la-la" portion a bit abrupt myself when I first heard it, but after a half-dozen listens I was used to it and over it. Nit-picking about "clicks" and digital glitches -- listening to MP3s, mind you -- is getting a bit ahead of ourselves. I think we also need to remember that all the Disc One versions of these tracks are not necessarily meant to be 100% historically accurate -- this is the "best we can manage" version of an album that never existed, based on a 35-years-later reconstruction. I think what Mark is trying to achieve with Disc One is the most complete and listenable version possible of each track. Thus we get the yodels in "Wonderful," and Mike's "over and over" vocals on "Cabinessence" are boosted a little (lest anyone forget that he sang the hell out of those lyrics he hated). If "historical accuracy" coincides with this goal (like using the acetate of "Child"), terrific. But otherwise, Mark's overriding mission is to NOT disappoint the casual fans and rubber-neckers who buy the 2-CD set wondering, "What's the big deal about this SMiLE album?"

If historical accuracy was the most important rule for Disc One, the "album" would sound like a bootleg of acetates and unfinished backing tracks -- not acceptable. The rest of the box is all about historical accuracy -- dig in and make your own version of "H&V" if you don't like Mark's. I seriously think that's exactly what Mark and Alan expect -- maybe even HOPE -- the super-fans will do with the box set tracks.

And hey, if you're going to rip the guy, at least spell his name right -- it's LINETT.  

[ghost]

I was just copying someone elses spelling on the Linnet thing. Sorry, Linett.

Brian's old edits even when appearing confounding to us mere mortals have something so strikingly unique & daring about them. Linett's are just fan mixes playing with computer software. Sorry, but it's true.

[seanmurd]

I was just copying someone elses spelling on the Linnet thing. Sorry, Linett.

Brian's old edits even when appearing confounding to us mere mortals have something so strikingly unique & daring about them. Linett's are just fan mixes playing with computer software. Sorry, but it's true.

So we should have someone who's NOT a fan compiling The Smile Sessions on all-analog gear? Yeah, that would speed the project up... 

[theCOD]

Ghost is just upset that somebody is fooling with his God's creation.

[buddhahat]

I was just copying someone elses spelling on the Linnet thing. Sorry, Linett.

Brian's old edits even when appearing confounding to us mere mortals have something so strikingly unique & daring about them. Linett's are just fan mixes playing with computer software. Sorry, but it's true.

I can no longer stand back and let Ghost take the rap. I'm the one who can't spell Linett!

[GeorgeFellInHisHorn]

I was just copying someone elses spelling on the Linnet thing. Sorry, Linett.

Brian's old edits even when appearing confounding to us mere mortals have something so strikingly unique & daring about them. Linett's are just fan mixes playing with computer software. Sorry, but it's true.

Considering that Capitol Records hired and is paying Mark Linett, how could you call them fan mixes? What exactly would you consider a professional mix? Unfinished/unrealized 66/67 edits? Please tell me, because i'm quite pleased the new mixes and what ML has done with them. There's nothing historically inaccurate about them, because historically, the SMiLE version of H&V was never full realized and released.

[drbeachboy]

I was just copying someone elses spelling on the Linnet thing. Sorry, Linett.

Brian's old edits even when appearing confounding to us mere mortals have something so strikingly unique & daring about them. Linett's are just fan mixes playing with computer software. Sorry, but it's true.

Considering that Capitol Records hired and is paying Mark Linett, how could you call them fan mixes? What exactly would you consider a professional mix? Unfinished/unrealized 66/67 edits? Please tell me, because i'm quite pleased the new mixes and what ML has done with them. There's nothing historically inaccurate about them, because historically, the SMiLE version of H&V was never full realized and released.

Some members here seem to forget that little fact.

[SMiLE Brian]

I'm liking the new version of H&V compared to the disjointed and not fully realized Smiley Smile Version.

[The Demon]

I'm liking the new version of H&V compared to the disjointed and not fully realized Smiley Smile Version.

Me too.  It's probably the first version I've actually loved.  I always liked the song, but it was never my favorite Smile piece.  This new edit sound like a proper followup to "Good Vibrations."  It's unusual and catchy, long for a 45, but it never drags.  It's the musical rollercoaster I think Brian was trying to capture.

[ghost]

I'm liking the new version of H&V compared to the disjointed and not fully realized Smiley Smile Version.

You're not even worthy to hear the Smiley Smile version of Heroes, man, if you think it's not fully realized. It's a masterpiece. Brian distilled months of widely divergent musical themes into a palatable freaky weird psychedelic barbershop hit record. That baldwin bass gets me every time. You're just not high enough. On the Heroes 45 there was a small inscription reading: Smoke some cabinessence before playing this record please

[SMiLE Brian]

I'm liking the new version of H&V compared to the disjointed and not fully realized Smiley Smile Version.

You're not even worthy to hear the Smiley Smile version of Heroes, man, if you think it's not fully realized. It's a masterpiece. Brian distilled months of widely divergent musical themes into a palatable freaky weird psychedelic barbershop hit record. That baldwin bass gets me every time. You're just not high enough. On the Heroes 45 there was a small inscription reading: Smoke some cabinessence before playing this record please

I never said the Smiley Smile version was bad, I just said it wasn't as good as the versions worked on the SMiLE sessions, which the Linett mix is representing. The smiley smile version's problems just represents Brian going downhill  during 1967 after two nervous breakdowns.

[buddhahat]

I'm liking the new version of H&V compared to the disjointed and not fully realized Smiley Smile Version.

You're not even worthy to hear the Smiley Smile version of Heroes, man, if you think it's not fully realized. It's a masterpiece. Brian distilled months of widely divergent musical themes into a palatable freaky weird psychedelic barbershop hit record. That baldwin bass gets me every time. You're just not high enough. On the Heroes 45 there was a small inscription reading: Smoke some cabinessence before playing this record please

I have loved the Smiley version ever since I heard it as a kid on Made In The USA. It's in my top 5 favourite songs. However I think Brian did himself a disservice in excising the Cantina Section and also some of the more colourful sections like Western Theme. It's almost like, once VDP left he got distracted by trying to make a hit rather than an art record and he ended up with neither. He lost the grand scope of his original vision and ironed out too many of its beautiful creases.

I think this mix (my minor gripe about the La la section aside) with the more percussive Smile era choruses, the cantina section and western theme has more of a sense of narrative and feels more cinematic. I'm not saying it's better than the 45 because I'm under no illusions that this is a 'historically accurate' version, and obviously Brian was on fire in terms of his editing abilities and sense of pace, buy it is a great companion mix. I'm really curious to hear what they've done with the parts 1 & 2 mixes - that could be very exciting.

[Jim V.]

I'm liking the new version of H&V compared to the disjointed and not fully realized Smiley Smile Version.

Me too.  It's probably the first version I've actually loved.  I always liked the song, but it was never my favorite Smile piece.  This new edit sound like a proper followup to "Good Vibrations."  It's unusual and catchy, long for a 45, but it never drags.  It's the musical rollercoaster I think Brian was trying to capture.

I think I see things a bit differently. Here's my reasoning:

First, I'll say that the Smiley Smile version is my favorite, especially in it 2001 mix. It's just such a sharp well written blast of pop music with a bunch of cool sections, and I think it better captures the rollercoaster feel than the "cantina" mix (with the three score and five part), which to me, somewhat sounds unfinished to me. However I think the craziest version would have been one that included "I'm In Great Shape" and possibly "Barnyard." On the Humble Harv demo alone, it shows how crazy and startling it would be if they followed the flutter tone with "I'm In Great Shape".  Then maybe after a few more parts, end the song with "Barnyard" on that softer note, wow, that would be great. I gotta say, from seeing the tracklist, that's the only real disappointment I have, that there apparently is no fall 1966 mix, because I'd imagine what I just described might be like those versions.

But at the end of the day, Brian chose what he chose, and he's the artist, so....it's his choice and I respect that.