Aeijtzsche's Annual Assortment of potentially unsolvable BB mysteries.

[OBLiO]

On the contrary, the bass players in LA studios at least felt that heavy strings recorded best.  Carol has said that she played with as heavy strings as she could handle.

That's true, but if a 6-string bass was used, the extra two strings would have a lighter gauge, anyway. I think these bass parts we are talking about are more like cello or baritone parts.

Brian almost always wanted a heavy pick sound on his records.  Carol Kaye played exclusively with a pick and Ray et. al usually adapted to Brian's wants.  In those days, what they considered to be a bass amp is now considered a guitar amp:  the Fender Bassman.  Special bass amps, though, were still a thing of the future in some ways.  Ray used a Bassman, Carol a Fender Super Reverb, both 4x10 guitar amps.  And while they certainly could have added reverb at the amp, most everything went through the studio's echo chamber and a lot got sent through tape slap.

That explains it. Intregal to the sound.

Flats.

Intregal, as well.

Yeah, but as guitarfool mentioned, the Jazz just didn't have the cachet in that particular studio culture.  Osborn is really the only guy who played one that I can think of.

Yes, but the Wrecking Crew were jazz musicians, but don't tell anybody.  

Basically any song ever recorded with a P-bass?  It's not some occult thing, to the people in the recording business circa the 1960s, "Fender Bass" is just a synonym for an electric bass guitar.  In the 60s, it just so happened that this most often happened to be a P-bass because of that model's domination, but Carol talks about how even after she switched brands, some older producers would still call it "Fender Bass."

They didn't serve punch on the Fender showroom floor?   Understood regarding the synonym. I don't remember ever hearing that before. It's funny to me... it's like saying "can you pour me some of that Lipton Ice Tea... boy that Lipton Ice Tea sure is good..." sounds like a commercial.

Don't give up. We're figuring stuff out.

Edit: Success!

[monicker]

Why is it so hard for whoever is playing the lick to get it just right?  If this is Barney Kessel playing a guitar, you would think he could: a) get it in tune.  b) get the notes to ring properly.  Even up that high on the neck.  And you know what--it still just sounds weird.  It really does sound like some weird ukelele from space sometimes.  But when whoever it is is just noodling, it doesn't sound quite as odd.

I used to be so intrigued, fascinated, and perplexed by the sound of the intro and wonder what could have been responsible for creating that sound, until i realized that i was even more intrigued, fascinated, and perplexed by the melodic line itself. One of the weirdest melodies in pop music.

[OBLiO]

To guitarfool: I found a couple of links:
http://theband.hiof.no/articles/fender_bass_vi.html
http://zeus.lunarpages.com/~jimshi2/service/

second link is a 1967 Fender service manual and there is other stuff on the site to look at, as well.

But I was thinking about that Bass VI and it is known as a Baritone instrument. Also, how the music on Pet Sounds is orchestrated and knowing that Brian was interested in raising the bar for popular music. Also, if we go by what the standards were for 1966, then we aren't thinking the way Brian produced. He was inventive and looking for new sounds and new ways to do things. So for now I am going with the Bass VI used as a cello or baritone instrument and the double-bass is the bass in the instrumentation. If I am wrong, I'm wrong, but makes more sense to me as to why there are two basses and still makes sense even with a Fender-P, but we don't have definite info, yet.

Listen to the bass work on Here Today. The double picking. Easier on lighter gauge strings, especially if you don't usually play with a pick. But! I did notice the highest note played is on the 1st string/19th fret on the 4-string.

[Jay]

I did an internet search for Pet Sounds studio session pictures. I didn't find much, but perhaps there might be something in this link I found. I didn't read it to closely, as I'm not nearly as educated in this topic as most people in this thread are.  http://classicstudiosessions.blogspot.com/

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

To guitarfool: I found a couple of links:
http://theband.hiof.no/articles/fender_bass_vi.html
http://zeus.lunarpages.com/~jimshi2/service/

second link is a 1967 Fender service manual and there is other stuff on the site to look at, as well.

But I was thinking about that Bass VI and it is known as a Baritone instrument. Also, how the music on Pet Sounds is orchestrated and knowing that Brian was interested in raising the bar for popular music. Also, if we go by what the standards were for 1966, then we aren't thinking the way Brian produced. He was inventive and looking for new sounds and new ways to do things. So for now I am going with the Bass VI used as a cello or baritone instrument and the double-bass is the bass in the instrumentation. If I am wrong, I'm wrong, but makes more sense to me as to why there are two basses and still makes sense even with a Fender-P, but we don't have definite info, yet.

Listen to the bass work on Here Today. The double picking. Easier on lighter gauge strings, especially if you don't usually play with a pick. But! I did notice the highest note played is on the 1st string/19th fret on the 4-string.

I say this friendlily; you're probably wrong about the Fender Bass VI.  The evidence is overwhelmingly against it; we have good documentary and anecdotal evidence that the Danelectro 6-string bass was the six string bass of choice for all the bass players on Pet Sounds, and most of the guitar players too.  If we're talking about six string basses, were talking about Danelectros.

Now, on some of these cuts, are there 6-string basses instead of Fender basses?  I suppose it's possible--we weren't there.  However I think in terms of Occam's Razor here, and to me, there's no compelling reason to think that the bass on Here Today was anything other than Ray Pohman's trusty P-bass.

[guitarfool2002]

The last posts raise a topic I wanted to bring up here, related to the Danelectro and Fender Bass VI.

First, this is my own Danelectro "Baritone":



This model was called the "Hodad", and I got it new just over 10 years ago, looking for that classic "6 string bass" sound we're talking about. This was a modernized take on the classic Danelectro as we see in the Wrecking Crew photos, only this model had upgrades like a bridge with string saddles for good intonation and setups, and other little tweaks like that, pickup combinations and wiring options and whatnot. It was indeed shipped from the factory as a "baritone" setup, with the string gauges set up best for tuning A-to-A or B-to-B, either a 4th or 5th lower than standard guitar E-to-E tuning.

What we think of and assume was the classic Danelectro 6-string bass tuning, E-to-E one octave below standard guitar, was an option you could have by purchasing that particular set of custom-gauge strings. That's what I thought I wanted, but...

The guitar sounds and plays *incredible* set up as a baritone, as it came from the factory. It is simply a beautiful range to play in, and open chords especially have a deep resonance falling in between guitar and bass; it's really unique and adds a lot of texture to recordings.

I'm thinking about the guys using the original model in the 60's: Were they playing the baritone setup, which is how these were set up at Fender and Danelectro as "standard", or did they take those strings off and replace them with the 6-string bass strings? Essentially what you have with the 6-string bass option is a bass with two higher strings...is it worth it for two high strings? The baritone would be more flexible and versatile, but the only drawback is you need to transpose the chords and music by sight when reading the parts. I've done that in the past with chord charts playing my baritone, and it's tough!

Adding Barney Kessel into the mix, that auction Josh cited a few pages ago was for a 4-string Danelectro bass, which Barney apparently used to "double" parts in the studio...I found that odd since we always assume that role was played by a Danelectro *six string* and not at standard 4.

Hmmm....

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Everything I've ever looked at indicates an E-E tuning on the Danos, as used by the Crew.  It is an interesting question though--what's the point?

I think there is probably some baritone guitar on Beach Boys records, one thing that comes to mind is the low chords on Salt Lake City.  But it is tricky to conceptualize the Danelectro 6-string bass' role.  Is it a bass?  Is it a guitar?  The standard use was to get the tic-tac sound, of course, which I suspect was just a natural byproduct of how the bass was made.  I mean, when it was designed, it probably wasn't envisioned what it would become.  It was just some novelty idea, I suppose.  But given the short-scale and the body composition, it had a sound that producers discovered was good for some applications.  

To me, the sound of a Dano really is the short scale neck with lighter strings tuned to the lower pitch.  That opening slide-down on I Get Around...you can't get that almost saxophone-like honk any other way.

About Barney's bass, either he retired that one when he got his hands on a 6-string, or used both, because he eventually did have a 6-string:

[guitarfool2002]

Everything I've ever looked at indicates an E-E tuning on the Danos, as used by the Crew.  It is an interesting question though--what's the point?

I think there is probably some baritone guitar on Beach Boys records, one thing that comes to mind is the low chords on Salt Lake City.  But it is tricky to conceptualize the Danelectro 6-string bass' role.  Is it a bass?  Is it a guitar?  The standard use was to get the tic-tac sound, of course, which I suspect was just a natural byproduct of how the bass was made.  I mean, when it was designed, it probably wasn't envisioned what it would become.  It was just some novelty idea, I suppose.  But given the short-scale and the body composition, it had a sound that producers discovered was good for some applications.  

To me, the sound of a Dano really is the short scale neck with lighter strings tuned to the lower pitch.  That opening slide-down on I Get Around...you can't get that almost saxophone-like honk any other way.

About Barney's bass, either he retired that one when he got his hands on a 6-string, or used both, because he eventually did have a 6-string:

What puzzles me is that the characteristic "tic tac" sound actually projects *better* on a baritone tuning than the E-to-E. If you're tuned A-to-A on a baritone, you are losing all of 5 low pitches or notes. Is it worth those 5 notes? The lowest string on a baritone is considerably lighter, and the different tension gives it a punchier sound that in my own opinion records better if you want the tic-tac effect. One could, in theory, play a Danelectro 4-string like the one in Barney's auction with a pick, through a Fender guitar amp heavier on the treble, and get that same sound.

It's a shame a lot of the musicians who played tic-tac bass in the 60's are no longer with us, I'd love to talk shop with them about this and ask them these details. I think the true tone of those guitars like the Fender Bass VI and the Danelectro baritone comes out when they're played like a baritone rather than 6-string bass. 

[Mikie]

I don't recall seeing this photo before. Would somebody do a quick I.D. please?

I see Kessel third from the left and then is that Tedesco and then next to him Blaine?

[guitarfool2002]

I don't recall seeing this photo before. Would somebody do a quick I.D. please?

I see Kessel third from the left and then is that Tedesco and then next to him Blaine?

Do you have a link for the photo? Nothing came up in your post.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/74158791.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAssetk=2&d=77BFBA49EF878921CC759DF4EBAC47D069D270604F7421F50F3C680B692416C1F4CFCD939224E6EC

Getty seems to work for some people and not for others, wonder why.  If that doesn't work just go to getty images and do a search for wrecking crew with a date range of 1960-1969 and it along with some others will come up.

As for the photo itself, from the left, I believe it is Henry Diltz and Jerry Yester from the Modern Folk Quartet (This was a Spector session of some sort, unknown exactly which cut), then indeed Barney and Tommy Tedesco.  I don't think it is Hal over there, he wasn't really a tympanist anyway.  Looking again, it's Frank Capp.  Don't know who is standing behind him.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Yeah, I think just do the search yourself, linking to Getty is difficult...

[Mikie]

Thanks, Josh.

[guitarfool2002]

The best way is to use the image link icon to place the photo into the post - just copy the URL of the photo, paste it in between the [img] icons, and everyone can see it unless the website doesn't allow linking.

Unless that's what was done and my browser isn't letting me see it. I feel like it's just me who can't see the photos, I don't understand.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

The best way is to use the image link icon to place the photo into the post - just copy the URL of the photo, paste it in between the [img] icons, and everyone can see it unless the website doesn't allow linking.

Unless that's what was done and my browser isn't letting me see it. I feel like it's just me who can't see the photos, I don't understand.

Yeah, that's how I do it...  Just do the search--it's worth it.

[OBLiO]

To Aeijtzsche.... I think you are right that I am wrong. And it's cool. I was thinking of a 6 string bass where you have the Low B and high C but that isn't what's happening here. But I do think the electric bass parts were treated as baritone or cello parts to expand the tonal palette, at least that's where my thinking took me.

I found this vid of Glen Campbell playing the Fender Bass VI... Wichita Lineman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qoymGCDYzU

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

To Aeijtzsche.... I think you are right that I am wrong. And it's cool. I was thinking of a 6 string bass where you have the Low B and high C but that isn't what's happening here. But I do think the electric bass parts were treated as baritone or cello parts to expand the tonal palette, at least that's where my thinking took me.

I found this vid of Glen Campbell playing the Fender Bass VI... Wichita Lineman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qoymGCDYzU

Nice clip--and interesting you should mention Wichita Lineman, because Campbell actually borrowed Carol Kaye's Danelectro 6-string bass to play the solo on the record, while Carol herself played Electric Bass.

[DonnyL]

I don't think anyone tuned the danelectro A-A in the '60s; the "baritone" tuning concept is a more modern approach.

[DonnyL]

And yeh, Carol told me a long time back that she doesn't remember ever seeing a Fender VI bass at any session, and that the Dano was the model.

Re: "tremelo" bridge: honestly, i don't think it was the tuning concern.  The Bass VI was an expensive instrument, something like 4 times more expensive than the cheap Dano.  Ditto a Tele vs. Jaguar, etc.  I think cost and straighforward approach were primary factors for the session guys. Keep in mind, these "youth/rock n roll" sounds were still considered a passing trend; they had their Gibsons for serious work, and their Teles and Danos for the kid stuff.

Re: 12-string standards: I believe most studio guys in the '60s and '70s used either a Fender Electric XII (as used on "sloop john b" for sure; and incidentally a completely different instrument than the strat XII reissues) or a Gibson 335 12 model).

[guitarfool2002]

I don't think anyone tuned the danelectro A-A in the '60s; the "baritone" tuning concept is a more modern approach.

That's not true - there were players (by far not as many) using the baritone setup A-to-A or B-to-B in the 60's but I think the concept started by Danelectro in the 50's was the octave below E-to-E configuration.

What I need to do is play through all the classic Danelectro tracks like "The Lonely Surfer", "Wichita Lineman", and "La Bamba" to see if they *could* be played in A-to-A tuning. Not saying the original players like Pitman used that, but just to compare.

I think it says a lot that Danelectro with the baritone like my Hodad and Fender with their baritones like the "Bajo Sexto" Tele shipped those instruments with the thinner strings for baritone tuning. All in all, it's a better sound.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Re: 12-string standards: I believe most studio guys in the '60s and '70s used either a Fender Electric XII (as used on "sloop john b" for sure; and incidentally a completely different instrument than the strat XII reissues) or a Gibson 335 12 model).

I think you're probably right, but there's always an outlier or two, just like Joe Osborn and his Jazz Bass or perhaps the small handful of people that had A-A tuned guitars.  Check out Glen Campbell's 12-string Mosrite:  (And yes, there is supposed to be a photo now:)



Perhaps this was the 12-string heard of Glen's Pet Sounds tracks?  Who knows?

[guitarfool2002]

And yeh, Carol told me a long time back that she doesn't remember ever seeing a Fender VI bass at any session, and that the Dano was the model.

Re: "tremelo" bridge: honestly, i don't think it was the tuning concern.  The Bass VI was an expensive instrument, something like 4 times more expensive than the cheap Dano.  Ditto a Tele vs. Jaguar, etc.  I think cost and straighforward approach were primary factors for the session guys. Keep in mind, these "youth/rock n roll" sounds were still considered a passing trend; they had their Gibsons for serious work, and their Teles and Danos for the kid stuff.

Re: 12-string standards: I believe most studio guys in the '60s and '70s used either a Fender Electric XII (as used on "sloop john b" for sure; and incidentally a completely different instrument than the strat XII reissues) or a Gibson 335 12 model).

The Danelectro was the model because it came out in the mid 50's, and just like any trade where you get tips and suggestions from the more seasoned veterans of the trade, you'd most likely gravitate toward whatever tools those people were using.

Tommy Tedesco had said this is exactly what Barney Kessel did for him: Kessel suggested if Tommy wanted to work in the studio, that he get something like a dozen different instruments to have on-call for sessions, and the way Tommy seemed to say that, it was something he never thought of until Barney, who had been doing sessions, gave him the tip. It made Tommy a ton of money, more than if he had his jazz guitars only.

So if a guy like Barney had a Telecaster, a Danelectro 6-string, an archtop for rhythm, a jazz box for single notes, etc, you'd probably equip yourself with the same tools if you wanted to work in that scene.

By the time the Bass VI came out, the Danelectro was firmly established as the go-to instrument for that sound, and I don't think cost played an issue since these musicians could buy an instrument and as union musicians write the instrument off as a business expense on their taxes. I think the tremolo was an issue in not using the Bass VI, although not the main one. If they got years of calls to play a certain sound and the Danelectro was that sound, then why change it, especially to an instrument with a tremolo bar that would be more prone to slipping out of tune after 20 takes?

[guitarfool2002]

The Fender 12-string electrics are more stable, easier to intonate, and stay in tune more consistently than Rickenbackers, which have a brilliant sound but are notoriously difficult to keep in tune. The secret weapon for years was the Fender Electric 12, even where folks thought it had to be a Rickenbacker based on the sound.

Joe Osborn and his Jazz Bass...are there many bass tones in rock/pop history more identifiable than Joe's Jazz Bass? A perfect picked bass tone. And apparently Joe never changed his strings, which resulted in them being worn down to where they were smooth. Yet his tone was perfect. One of my favorites. In that case I think the Jazz Bass made him stand out, and for a long time he was never without work from producers and writers looking for *that* sound.

[guitarfool2002]

they had their Gibsons for serious work, and their Teles and Danos for the kid stuff.

I was trying to find a nice way to say how much I disagree with this statement.

I haven't found one yet so I'll just mention how much I disagree with this statement.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

they had their Gibsons for serious work, and their Teles and Danos for the kid stuff.

I was trying to find a nice way to say how much I disagree with this statement.

I haven't found one yet so I'll just mention how much I disagree with this statement.

Isn't that what a lot of them thought at the time though?  I don't think Donny thinks Teles and Danos are kid's stuff, but I don't see Bill Pitman doing a dano bass record, you know?  And Barney did sort of reserve his classic Gibson for his jazz records.