When did Brian stop using the Baldwin?

[Loaf]

On the subject of When a Man Needs a Woman--apologies for steering this thing in a completely different direction--putting aside the dubious ideas of complementarianism that are conveyed in the lyrics, is anyone else bothered by Brian having designated the sex of the baby a boy before knowing that he would, in fact, have two daughters? This has always bothered me. I imagine Brian probably didn't even consider the possibility that they might not even have a boy. Musically, the song is so great, but lyrically, in my opinion, it is actually one the most cringe worthy, embarrassing, and juvenile in their catalog. Wait, is that saying a lot or not saying much at all, considering the lyrical quality of their output? Granted, i'm not familiar with anything past 1977. I don't know, i kind of wish the song was about apples or a toothbrush or something. But then it wouldn't really be the Beach Boys, would it. Or maybe it would, who knows. I'm curious, actually, about the different ways that you folks around here justify to yourselves, in general, the egregious lyrics that are set to earth shattering, mind blowing music. I can't figure out how i myself do it, which is why i ask.

Why does the song have to be about Brian Wilson's exact personal life? A songwriter or singer can create a song that is separate from the creator. Sure there are plenty of overlaps, but if it bothers you so much just take the song as about a character Brian Wilson is singing about.

[guitarfool2002]

What kind of guitar is Al playing in that group picture? The body looks like a Gibson, but the neck sure doesn't. Maybe it's just the odd angle of the picture.

That is a Fender Coronado Electric XII, 12-string electric guitar. The giveaway is the headstock,  which looks like a hockey stick - that's a trademark of 60's Fender 12-string electrics. It looks like a Gibson or Epiphone because Fender was looking for a design to compete with Gibson's 335 thin semi-hollowbody design which was popular, as was Epiphone's. Notice the headstock color matches the body, that was a custom-color option too which not many of them got.  It's not a really valuable guitar model to collectors and not really a good playing guitar either by their reputation, but I think collectors like the look and the colors of them.

I wonder what happened to that guitar, has anyone ever seen Al playing it since Hawaii 1967?

Thanks for that info.   I think Elvis played one of these guitars on his 1968 Comeback special. I could never figure out why he was playing a Gibson with a Fender neck.  

Not to derail the discussion too far, but I love talking about this kind of thing! The guitar you're talking about from the '68 Comeback show was a Hagstrom Viking. It's a neat Elvis story for guitar fans, on how he came to play that in the TV special. The guitar belonged to session guitarist Al Casey, the same guy that's on handfuls of Beach Boys songs. He showed up to do a session with his crate full of instruments, and Hagstrom had given that Viking to Casey, so it was in his case but he didn't use it too much if at all for sessions. Elvis spotted the guitar and loved the look, much like Al Jardine's red Coronado it does have a striking design and color which is probably better than the guitar actually sounded and played! They thought it would look great on camera, so Elvis borrowed it from Al Casey for that show.

It's easy to mistake that Hagstrom for a Fender, especially with the Fender headstock and Coronado-style body. Here is a link to more info on that particular guitar:

http://www.scottymoore.net/ep68hagstrom.html

What I'm thinking after yesterday about Al Jardine's Fender Coronado XII is that it was a brand new model and design in 66-67, and at that same time the Beach Boys were prominent endorsers of Fender equipment, appearing in both print ads and radio-TV spots. Part of those endorsements included Fender offering the newest models to the artists to play and be seen and photographed with, so I'm guessing Jardine's custom-color 12-string may have been a result of that endorsement.

Thanks very much for that info! I always thought that guitar did look cool on the '68 Comeback Special. Do you happen to know of a good example of a song that has a Hangstrom Viking or Fender Coronado XII being played? Before a read about it in this thread, I hadn't heard of either guitar. I'm kind of curios about some of the more obscure guitars, like the Fender Jaguar, Mustang, Du Sonic, etc.

I'm inclined to think that Al's guitar is actually a Baldwin 712.
http://www.terrym.co.uk/1website/page17.htm

What makes you so inclined to think that?

Seriously, that could be it, that's a great observation. Going from the photo on page one it looked like the "hockey stick" headstock from a Fender, but that could have been the angle of that shot. I'm looking for more shots of it but it would make sense if Baldwin gave Brian an organ, a guitar could have been added to the gifts...

Maybe Baldwin was trying to woo the band into a sponsorship away from Fender. Baldwin tried to buy Fender in '65 but failed and was outbid by CBS. Maybe they were trying to win over Fender endorsees by giving them free stuff...

[guitarfool2002]

My credit and thanks to Harvey - that's definitely a Baldwin. Cheers!    I looked at some of the Hawaii film and the other angles of the film show that headstock as a Baldwin, without a doubt. I'm curious how you did the detective work on that guitar. I went from that one photo I found, it looked like a Fender headstock from that angle and would have bet the farm on it. Turns out it wasn't that way at all, and the Baldwin is the correct answer. Very, very good stuff.

It's curious that - so far at least - I haven't seen a photo or film of Al actually *performing* with that guitar. He's only shown with it in the rehearsals.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

On the subject of When a Man Needs a Woman--apologies for steering this thing in a completely different direction--putting aside the dubious ideas of complementarianism that are conveyed in the lyrics, is anyone else bothered by Brian having designated the sex of the baby a boy before knowing that he would, in fact, have two daughters? This has always bothered me. I imagine Brian probably didn't even consider the possibility that they might not even have a boy.

"You know it makes you nervous whilst you wait for your daughter
You wait nine months for your wife to break water"

or

"You know it makes you nervous whilst you wait for your girl
You wait nine months for that afterbirth smell"

I think it was poetic license. Boy rhymes with joy

Also known as a creative decision.

[Mr. Cohen]

Poppycock!

You know it makes you nervous
When you wait for your girl
You wait nine months for her to enter the world

[Ebb and Flow]

Regarding the info about Murry giving the Baldwin to Brian as a birthday gift...Brian specifically refers to the gift as a "pipe organ" in this melody maker piece from October, 1966.

[monicker]

Why does the song have to be about Brian Wilson's exact personal life? A songwriter or singer can create a song that is separate from the creator. Sure there are plenty of overlaps, but if it bothers you so much just take the song as about a character Brian Wilson is singing about.

Excellent point. Though that still leaves the rest of the lyrics.

Regarding the info about Murry giving the Baldwin to Brian as a birthday gift...Brian specifically refers to the gift as a "pipe organ" in this melody maker piece from October, 1966.

Wait, so he had a PIPE ORGAN in his home?

[Ebb and Flow]

Regarding the info about Murry giving the Baldwin to Brian as a birthday gift...Brian specifically refers to the gift as a "pipe organ" in this melody maker piece from October, 1966.

Wait, so he had a PIPE ORGAN in his home?

I doubt he meant a full-sized pipe organ, but "pipe organ" is not what I'd use to describe the sound of the Baldwin, even as a casual descriptor.

[Jonas]

lei'd in hawaii? more like lei'd in

[Dunderhead]

On the subject of When a Man Needs a Woman--apologies for steering this thing in a completely different direction--putting aside the dubious ideas of complementarianism that are conveyed in the lyrics, is anyone else bothered by Brian having designated the sex of the baby a boy before knowing that he would, in fact, have two daughters? This has always bothered me. I imagine Brian probably didn't even consider the possibility that they might not even have a boy. Musically, the song is so great, but lyrically, in my opinion, it is actually one the most cringe worthy, embarrassing, and juvenile in their catalog. Wait, is that saying a lot or not saying much at all, considering the lyrical quality of their output? Granted, i'm not familiar with anything past 1977. I don't know, i kind of wish the song was about apples or a toothbrush or something. But then it wouldn't really be the Beach Boys, would it. Or maybe it would, who knows. I'm curious, actually, about the different ways that you folks around here justify to yourselves, in general, the egregious lyrics that are set to earth shattering, mind blowing music. I can't figure out how i myself do it, which is why i ask.

This is a really good point that I too noticed a while back. I believe in the Jack Rieley comments he says that Brian didn't want girls. That Murry was a real man because he had sired three boys, while anyone who couldn't produce a male heir was not a "real" man. So he recorded that song and just over a month later he had a girl. There's something kind of depressing about that.

[Roger Ryan]

Not as depressing as taking an additional three times to get a son with his second marriage...and he was adopting! Poor guy didn't have any luck.

[ghost]

Brian is Cosmos - why should he have a son? His lucky sperm made daughters - procreative wombs. It would offset the balance of the existential energies for Wilson to beget males. A pretty girl is worth a thousand boys, anyway.

Brian's genius is complete & reached its highest attainments years ago. Where is the need of a male heir? His real children are his songs and the children know the way.

[guitarfool2002]

Regarding the info about Murry giving the Baldwin to Brian as a birthday gift...Brian specifically refers to the gift as a "pipe organ" in this melody maker piece from October, 1966.

With this information, combined with Al Jardine's comments about Baldwin giving Brian the "Theater Organ", is it possible to rule out the theory that the Baldwin was a gift from Murry? I think that's a safe bet to rule it out. And it's more interesting since some excellent research showed that Al was playing a Baldwin guitar in Hawaii - not exactly a first choice for a guitar in America, especially from a group of Fender endorsers. It all seems to line up somehow with a Baldwin connection, whether they were trying to sign the Beach Boys as an endorsement deal like Fender had done, or whether they were just a very generous company. I doubt the latter...

[monicker]

Whoa, what if the Baldwin is all over Smiley, not because of a personal/creative/artistic decision, but because of a possible Baldwin endorsement deal?!

 

[guitarfool2002]

Whoa, what if the Baldwin is all over Smiley, not because of a personal/creative/artistic decision, but because of a possible Baldwin endorsement deal?!

 

Just as pure speculation, it opens up an interesting possibility. Why else would a company like Baldwin just give Brian Wilson an organ out of the blue like that if there were not an ulterior motive? Today it's celebrities getting gift bags and having "gift tents" at big media events where they're lavished with stuff from sponsors, but in 1967 why would a company with *no association* to the band decide to give him an instrument costing thousands?

One consideration is Baldwin's failure to buy Fender two years prior (1965), with CBS buying out Fender instead. Baldwin was trying to break into the same market as Fender and Gibson, so they bought the "Burns" company instead. And Burns made neat guitars and basses but were relatively unknown in the US. If Baldwin knew the Beach Boys were one of Fender's big-name endorsements, and Baldwin was trying to compete with Fender, they might try the age-old sales practice of "poaching" Fender's acts from them for similar endorsements.

The comparison I'm going with here is how Fender in late 68, after trying since 1964 along with other instrument makers, put an all-out push on The Beatles with their new instrument lines. They shipped cases full of gear, including George's custom-made Rosewood Telecaster, to the Beatles in an effort to gain an endorsement. And that's how you see all kinds of new Fender gear on the stage and on the rooftop during the Let It Be film.

Since Al also has that Baldwin guitar, I wouldn't rule the endorsement angle out completely until more info turns up.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

They shipped cases full of gear, including George's custom-made Rosewood Telecaster, to the Beatles in an effort to gain an endorsement. And that's how you see all kinds of new Fender gear on the stage and on the rooftop during the Let It Be film.

Can you imagine what a different mental image we'd have of the Beatles if from day one, they had been Fender people?  Imaging them up on stage in '64, John strumming a Strat, George playing XII, Paul playing a P-bass, with a backline of Fender amps behind them...weird.

[guitarfool2002]

They shipped cases full of gear, including George's custom-made Rosewood Telecaster, to the Beatles in an effort to gain an endorsement. And that's how you see all kinds of new Fender gear on the stage and on the rooftop during the Let It Be film.

Can you imagine what a different mental image we'd have of the Beatles if from day one, they had been Fender people?  Imaging them up on stage in '64, John strumming a Strat, George playing XII, Paul playing a P-bass, with a backline of Fender amps behind them...weird.

Absolutely, yes, that is a great point and it would have been different, perhaps not as unique despite the music. Part of the Beatles mystique was the fact that they played really odd guitars which no other major pop acts were using in that prominent a way, and their instruments and the sounds from them became as much a part of their image and mystique as their hair and suits, especially that first impression in 63-64. George loved Gretsch because he was a rockabilly fan to the core, John bought the Rickenbacker because no one else had one, and Paul got the Hofner because he could flip it over and play left handed comfortably, after deciding Fender basses were too expensive. Very "practical" reasons, but look what happened!

As a result, I understand musical instrument companies were literally battling each other to score a Beatles endorsement. That first Sullivan show in '64 created a *massive* sales spike for the companies whose guitars they were seen playing. It was like hitting the lottery for Rickenbacker, Gretsch, Hofner, etc. The demand was almost instant. It's ironic that Fender finally broke through and landed such a deal just as the Beatles were falling apart!

[runnersdialzero]

On the subject of When a Man Needs a Woman--apologies for steering this thing in a completely different direction--putting aside the dubious ideas of complementarianism that are conveyed in the lyrics, is anyone else bothered by Brian having designated the sex of the baby a boy before knowing that he would, in fact, have two daughters? This has always bothered me. I imagine Brian probably didn't even consider the possibility that they might not even have a boy. Musically, the song is so great, but lyrically, in my opinion, it is actually one the most cringe worthy, embarrassing, and juvenile in their catalog. Wait, is that saying a lot or not saying much at all, considering the lyrical quality of their output? Granted, i'm not familiar with anything past 1977. I don't know, i kind of wish the song was about apples or a toothbrush or something. But then it wouldn't really be the Beach Boys, would it. Or maybe it would, who knows. I'm curious, actually, about the different ways that you folks around here justify to yourselves, in general, the egregious lyrics that are set to earth shattering, mind blowing music. I can't figure out how i myself do it, which is why i ask.

Hi, are you aware of how ridiculous this is? Are you high? I don't evenasDjfvasihfasdughnaj

[ghost]

On the subject of When a Man Needs a Woman--apologies for steering this thing in a completely different direction--putting aside the dubious ideas of complementarianism that are conveyed in the lyrics, is anyone else bothered by Brian having designated the sex of the baby a boy before knowing that he would, in fact, have two daughters? This has always bothered me. I imagine Brian probably didn't even consider the possibility that they might not even have a boy. Musically, the song is so great, but lyrically, in my opinion, it is actually one the most cringe worthy, embarrassing, and juvenile in their catalog. Wait, is that saying a lot or not saying much at all, considering the lyrical quality of their output? Granted, i'm not familiar with anything past 1977. I don't know, i kind of wish the song was about apples or a toothbrush or something. But then it wouldn't really be the Beach Boys, would it. Or maybe it would, who knows. I'm curious, actually, about the different ways that you folks around here justify to yourselves, in general, the egregious lyrics that are set to earth shattering, mind blowing music. I can't figure out how i myself do it, which is why i ask.

Hi, are you aware of how ridiculous this is? Are you high? I don't evenasDjfvasihfasdughnaj

Dude, this whole board is ridiculous and so are all of us. Brian would freak out if he knew how obsessed we all are with him.

[Andrew G. Doe]

On the subject of When a Man Needs a Woman--apologies for steering this thing in a completely different direction--putting aside the dubious ideas of complementarianism that are conveyed in the lyrics, is anyone else bothered by Brian having designated the sex of the baby a boy before knowing that he would, in fact, have two daughters? This has always bothered me. I imagine Brian probably didn't even consider the possibility that they might not even have a boy. Musically, the song is so great, but lyrically, in my opinion, it is actually one the most cringe worthy, embarrassing, and juvenile in their catalog. Wait, is that saying a lot or not saying much at all, considering the lyrical quality of their output? Granted, i'm not familiar with anything past 1977. I don't know, i kind of wish the song was about apples or a toothbrush or something. But then it wouldn't really be the Beach Boys, would it. Or maybe it would, who knows. I'm curious, actually, about the different ways that you folks around here justify to yourselves, in general, the egregious lyrics that are set to earth shattering, mind blowing music. I can't figure out how i myself do it, which is why i ask.

Hi, are you aware of how ridiculous this is? Are you high? I don't evenasDjfvasihfasdughnaj

Dude, this whole board is ridiculous and so are all of us. Brian would freak out if he knew how obsessed we all are with him.

He knows. He finds it all highly amusing.

[ghost]

So if Brian knows about us pathological cases, is it not possible that his mysterious interview answers are just him messing with us? Yes, No, Maybe.

[harveyw]

My credit and thanks to Harvey - that's definitely a Baldwin. Cheers!    I looked at some of the Hawaii film and the other angles of the film show that headstock as a Baldwin, without a doubt. I'm curious how you did the detective work on that guitar. I went from that one photo I found, it looked like a Fender headstock from that angle and would have bet the farm on it. Turns out it wasn't that way at all, and the Baldwin is the correct answer. Very, very good stuff.

It's curious that - so far at least - I haven't seen a photo or film of Al actually *performing* with that guitar. He's only shown with it in the rehearsals.

Thanks! I'm very familiar with this model as I used to look longingly at it in shops on Denmark Street and go "ah...someday". It ticked all my guitar-requirement boxes at the time: 12-string, semi-acoustic, obscure-ish brand, cherry red. Then, when I could have easily afforded one (they were only £300 or so in the early 90s), went off and bought a Ricky 330-12 instead. Idiot; one of these (or a Baldwin/Burns Double-Six) would have been a much wiser investment. Might have stayed in tune a bit more reliably too.
I don't have the Hawaii footage to hand, but I don't remember Al playing one during the show either. Maybe he only played a 12-string on a couple of numbers in the set?
And yes, I'd been wondering about a BB/Baldwin sponsorship/endorsement deal too, though I've recently looked through hundreds of back issues of Billboard (pretty much a complete run from 65-70) for a book project I've been involved with, and didn't see a single "The Beach Boys play Baldwin!" (or similar) ad.

[Dunderhead]

On the subject of When a Man Needs a Woman--apologies for steering this thing in a completely different direction--putting aside the dubious ideas of complementarianism that are conveyed in the lyrics, is anyone else bothered by Brian having designated the sex of the baby a boy before knowing that he would, in fact, have two daughters? This has always bothered me. I imagine Brian probably didn't even consider the possibility that they might not even have a boy. Musically, the song is so great, but lyrically, in my opinion, it is actually one the most cringe worthy, embarrassing, and juvenile in their catalog. Wait, is that saying a lot or not saying much at all, considering the lyrical quality of their output? Granted, i'm not familiar with anything past 1977. I don't know, i kind of wish the song was about apples or a toothbrush or something. But then it wouldn't really be the Beach Boys, would it. Or maybe it would, who knows. I'm curious, actually, about the different ways that you folks around here justify to yourselves, in general, the egregious lyrics that are set to earth shattering, mind blowing music. I can't figure out how i myself do it, which is why i ask.

Hi, are you aware of how ridiculous this is? Are you high? I don't evenasDjfvasihfasdughnaj

Read:
Herzensergießungen eines kunstliebenden Klosterbruders - Wilhelm Heinrich Wackenroder & Ludwig Tieck, 1797