Musical relationship of Brian and Dennis

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I find it odd that Dennis collaborated more with Mike then he did with Brian! I wish that this duo would have worked together more often (when cocaine was not involved). They would've made a killer team!

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Who knows why?

I do know that the relationship between siblings is complex in any family. Maybe Dennis was reluctant to ask. When it came to music he was the only one in the band who seemed genuinely in awe of Brian. Maybe he didn't feel he measured up. He was always quite modest and shy of his musical accomplishments, is that not the case?

A shame, because they could have done some great stuff together.

[Jon Stebbins]

I find it odd that Dennis collaborated more with Mike then he did with Brian! I wish that this duo would have worked together more often (when cocaine was not involved). They would've made a killer team!

Not really that odd because nearly all of Dennis' collaborators were primarily lyricists. The only one I can think of that wasn't was Daryl Dragon...and i guess Carl. But Kalinich, Jakobson, Love, Burchman, Cushing-Murray, Lamm etc... All of them were giving Dennis his lyrics or helping him with them. He pretty much had the music covered himself. I think he and Brian's composing, arranging and producing skills would create overlap and redundancy making it hard to collaborate. Like Dennis, Brian's favorite collaborators were lyricists. But that said, Like you I do wish more of the things Brian and Dennis worked on together had surfaced as demos or finished songs.

[monicker]

Is there anyone else here who just doesn’t “get” the Dennis fixation? I don’t get it at all. But i would like to. I find 95% of what he wrote to be maudlin, dull, pedestrian, and overwhelmingly cheesy, which i think only worsened over his years writing. By the time of POB and Bambu, i find the music abysmal and intolerable. He’s also my least favorite voice/singer of the group, including Bruce. I get the feeling that there are Dennis apologists whose high praise of him are more so about the man than the music, and they just really, really want to validate him because a) he was Brian’s biggest supporter and defender, b) he was the “underdog,” the one who was sort of shoehorned into the group early on, and consequently received the most criticism in regards to instrumental abilities (subsequently people now like to say that Dennis was a GREAT drummer. Great? Really now?), c) he fit the charming, good looking rebel archetype; women adored him, and men looked up to him.

Thoughts? Bricks thrown at my head? What is the Dennis allure all about?!

[Andrew G. Doe]

Is there anyone else here who just doesn’t “get” the Dennis fixation? I don’t get it at all. But i would like to. I find 95% of what he wrote to be maudlin, dull, pedestrian, and overwhelmingly cheesy, which i think only worsened over his years writing. By the time of POB and Bambu, i find the music abysmal and intolerable. He’s also my least favorite voice/singer of the group, including Bruce. I get the feeling that there are Dennis apologists whose high praise of him are more so about the man than the music, and they just really, really want to validate him because a) he was Brian’s biggest supporter and defender, b) he was the “underdog,” the one who was sort of shoehorned into the group early on, and consequently received the most criticism in regards to instrumental abilities (subsequently people now like to say that Dennis was a GREAT drummer. Great? Really now?), c) he fit the charming, good looking rebel archetype; women adored him, and men looked up to him.

Thoughts? Bricks thrown at my head? What is the Dennis allure all about?!

Dennis' music is like Marmite - you either like it, or you don't.

[rogerlancelot]

Is there anyone else here who just doesn’t “get” the Dennis fixation? I don’t get it at all. But i would like to. I find 95% of what he wrote to be maudlin, dull, pedestrian, and overwhelmingly cheesy, which i think only worsened over his years writing. By the time of POB and Bambu, i find the music abysmal and intolerable. He’s also my least favorite voice/singer of the group, including Bruce. I get the feeling that there are Dennis apologists whose high praise of him are more so about the man than the music, and they just really, really want to validate him because a) he was Brian’s biggest supporter and defender, b) he was the “underdog,” the one who was sort of shoehorned into the group early on, and consequently received the most criticism in regards to instrumental abilities (subsequently people now like to say that Dennis was a GREAT drummer. Great? Really now?), c) he fit the charming, good looking rebel archetype; women adored him, and men looked up to him.

Thoughts? Bricks thrown at my head? What is the Dennis allure all about?!

We closed our wedding last week with "Cuddle Up". I suppose if you don't get it you might never will. But the first time I heard POB....

[Jon Stebbins]

Is there anyone else here who just doesn’t “get” the Dennis fixation? I don’t get it at all. But i would like to. I find 95% of what he wrote to be maudlin, dull, pedestrian, and overwhelmingly cheesy, which i think only worsened over his years writing. By the time of POB and Bambu, i find the music abysmal and intolerable. He’s also my least favorite voice/singer of the group, including Bruce. I get the feeling that there are Dennis apologists whose high praise of him are more so about the man than the music, and they just really, really want to validate him because a) he was Brian’s biggest supporter and defender, b) he was the “underdog,” the one who was sort of shoehorned into the group early on, and consequently received the most criticism in regards to instrumental abilities (subsequently people now like to say that Dennis was a GREAT drummer. Great? Really now?), c) he fit the charming, good looking rebel archetype; women adored him, and men looked up to him.

Thoughts? Bricks thrown at my head? What is the Dennis allure all about?!

So you figure the popularity of his music, the fact that his solo LP sold well, the fact that it reviewed great in the rock press (pretty much did better than any BB's solo effort and many many BB's LP's), and the fact the cult of those who love Dennis' music has grown exponentially since the 2008 reissue of POB which was  a giant success - has nothing to do with the fact that his music is good...its just because people are so completely enamored with his "rebel archetype" that they are ashamed to admit they don't like his music. Oh, and all of the drummers and musicians and fans, who love his drumming, also say that not because they REALLY like it...but because he was "good looking". Of all the Beach Boys related things that could be labeled "cheesy" I'd say Dennis is safely near the bottom of that list. But maybe I'm just saying that because I'm mesmerized by his hair or something.

[Matt H]

There are a lot of artists that sell well and are liked by critics but in my opinion are not very good.  I love Dennis mostly because of the emotion that I hear in his delivery.

[monicker]

So you figure the popularity of his music, the fact that his solo LP sold well, the fact that it reviewed great in the rock press (pretty much did better than any BB's solo effort and many many BB's LP's), and the fact the cult of those who love Dennis' music has grown exponentially since the 2008 reissue of POB which was  a giant success - has nothing to do with the fact that his music is good...its just because people are so completely enamored with his "rebel archetype" that they are ashamed to admit they don't like his music. Oh, and all of the drummers and musicians and fans, who love his drumming, also say that not because they REALLY like it...but because he was "good looking". Of all the Beach Boys related things that could be labeled "cheesy" I'd say Dennis is safely near the bottom of that list. But maybe I'm just saying that because I'm mesmerized by his hair or something.

Yes. Well, wait, no. Not entirely. You left stuff out and focussed solely on his looks––funny that. But as i said, i wish i understood because it really baffles me. And, personally, on a list that includes “The Beach Boys” and “cheesy,” Dennis would surely be at the top. He came to embody cheesiness––the wounded, womanizing, alcoholic tough guy with a soft, brooding, sensitive side that came out through mawkish, and, frankly, formulaic ballads, the type of songs that are just trying so hard to pull at the heart strings. Even his singing style is that somewhat forced, overly emotive, breathy crooner thing. [Please note that i love Bruce’s Sunflower and Surf’s Up contributions. Also note that Mike Love is corny, not cheesy.] Anyway, Denny was ahead of his time, though, because his style would soon blow up and dominate the rest of the 70s and 80s mainstream. I see him, musically, as the least typical of the Beach Boys. It seems that from pretty early on he was going in a sort of MoR direction (though not as obvious as where Bruce would eventually go), which is confusing and a bit strange considering how much he endorsed Brian musically. My ears tell me that Brian and Dennis were musical opposites. I see not a shred of similarity between the two musically.

[Jon Stebbins]

My ears tell me that Brian and Dennis were musical opposites. I see not a shred of similarity between the two musically.

Maybe that's the problem. You can't see with your ears. But...if you listen to the way they recorded instruments, and painstakingly melded them in their productions, no one is more similar to Brian than Dennis. However, yes, Dennis is very much not typical Beach Boys in his sound, although he evokes the bliss of Brian, but in a darker format. Anyway, you have your opinion, and it is one.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

The one Beach Boy I am mesmerized by their looks was Mike Love. To me, he always had the coolest look. I am a straight man, so I don't get the appeal of Dennis myself. But musically, I would say that Dennis' music continued logically passed Holland with Pacific Ocean Blue. But the rest of the band took a different direction. Love You was also good and went forward in the vein of Funky Pretty. PoB in the vein of Sail on Sailor.

[Amy B.]

Music is obviously a very personal experience, and since Dennis's music was more emotive than cerebral, I think you either "feel" it or you don't. There are people who think listening to Mariah Carey is an incredibly emotional experience. Not me. I get very little out of her music. When I hear Dennis's music, I hear pain, heartache, and beauty. And even though I most definitely think he was good looking, it has nothing to do with what he looked like. I'm certain that if I heard Dennis's music (especially the POB/Bamboo stuff) without knowing what he looked like, I'd probably think he was pretty worn and ugly looking, based on his voice. But that doesn't matter. I think there's validity in your point about people getting caught up in the romantic aspect of his pretty tragic life (and possibly romanticizing his personality, which is easy to do when someone dies young), but again, I believe that even if I knew nothing about his life, I'd be touched by his music. It's not for everyone, though. And I know plenty of people who don't get the BRIAN love, either.

[Mike's Beard]

I find listening to Mariah Carey an incredibly emotional experience but not in a good way.

P.S. 3 years on and I still can't get into Bambu...

[Jay]

I think that Dennis and Brian were quite alike in certain ways, musically speaking. I listen to Dennis's more "ambitious" works like "Love Remember Me", "Tug of Love", "Are You Real?", and "Album Tag Song" were kind of like Dennis's 1970's version of SMiLE. Dennis was creating music that seemed quite complex, and had multiple layers in the instrumentation. I can listen to the same songs over and over again, and get something new from it every time.

[Andrew G. Doe]

So you figure the popularity of his music, the fact that his solo LP sold well, the fact that it reviewed great in the rock press (pretty much did better than any BB's solo effort and many many BB's LP's), and the fact the cult of those who love Dennis' music has grown exponentially since the 2008 reissue of POB which was  a giant success - has nothing to do with the fact that his music is good...its just because people are so completely enamored with his "rebel archetype" that they are ashamed to admit they don't like his music. Oh, and all of the drummers and musicians and fans, who love his drumming, also say that not because they REALLY like it...but because he was "good looking". Of all the Beach Boys related things that could be labeled "cheesy" I'd say Dennis is safely near the bottom of that list. But maybe I'm just saying that because I'm mesmerized by his hair or something.

Yes. Well, wait, no. Not entirely. You left stuff out and focussed solely on his looks––funny that. But as i said, i wish i understood because it really baffles me. And, personally, on a list that includes “The Beach Boys” and “cheesy,” Dennis would surely be at the top. He came to embody cheesiness––the wounded, womanizing, alcoholic tough guy with a soft, brooding, sensitive side that came out through mawkish, and, frankly, formulaic ballads, the type of songs that are just trying so hard to pull at the heart strings. Even his singing style is that somewhat forced, overly emotive, breathy crooner thing. [Please note that i love Bruce’s Sunflower and Surf’s Up contributions. Also note that Mike Love is corny, not cheesy.] Anyway, Denny was ahead of his time, though, because his style would soon blow up and dominate the rest of the 70s and 80s mainstream. I see him, musically, as the least typical of the Beach Boys. It seems that from pretty early on he was going in a sort of MoR direction (though not as obvious as where Bruce would eventually go), which is confusing and a bit strange considering how much he endorsed Brian musically. My ears tell me that Brian and Dennis were musical opposites. I see not a shred of similarity between the two musically.

Cheesy:

"Cheap, unpleasant, or blatantly inauthentic."

"Of poor quality; shoddy."

You, sir, are a fool, and possibly a troll. Your opinion, which I respect your right to express, is, in this instance, questionable in the extreme.

[D409]

How anybody could dub Dennis "cheesy" is way beyond me . His songs are emotional masterpieces !

[c-man]

All I can say is that in 1977, when POB came out, I was duly (then and forever more) impressed with the originality, emotion, and scope of the piece, and this was before I knew anything of Dennis' underdog status or his singular support of Brian's music.  From then on, I always considered Dennis to be a "special" talent and a "special" individual...I think the fact that you could "know" him through his music, in a similar way to how you could "know" Brian, John Lennon, and some select others, is what did it.  When I saw the Boys' appearance on the Midnight Special in 1979, I really dug Dennis' drumming, particularly the way he "felt" the song, and hit all the right (if sometimes unconvential) grooves..."in the pocket" as some say, and similar to Ringo's "untechnical" but nonetheless great approach.  When I played the video of their 1980 July 4th performance for a drummer friend some years later (who knew not much of The Beach Boys other than their radio hits), his comment was "Yeah, he was a great drummer".  

Your opinion of Dennis' music is as valid as anyone else's, but your idea of why so many people love & respect Dennis & his music is obviously incorrect.  And I think "cheesy" is probably not the best choice of words for what you're trying to get across.  Some of Bruce Springsteen's more grandiose music tends to leave me flat (but I know many people are REALLY moved by it), and perhaps that's what you're trying to say in regards to Dennis' music.  But "cheesy" it ain't.

[the captain]

I knew that post was going to lead to this same old thing. It seems people always want others to respect their own preferences without question, and yet rarely fail to question the motives, intelligence, or taste of others before hitting "Post." Listen, as many of you know, I am not much of a fan of Dennis's music, either. I've probably used the word "cheesy" to describe it, but thanks to AGD pulling out the ol' dictionary, I won't again. (I do find a lot of it a bit over the top, sickly sweet in its sentimentality, grandiose in a not-good way.) But the key to the parenthetical is less the adjectives than the subject and verb. I find it to be. Really ... who fucking cares? I'm sure there are people who like Dennis's music for his looks. That's fine, sex is a huge part of pop and always has been. Others probably like it for his role in the back-story. Equally fine. Whatever entertains, entertains. But of course the suggestion that these are the reasons, as opposed to a few possibilities for some people, is silly. Why question the motivation just because the result isn't the same as one's own? Im sure most people who like Dennis's music like it because the sound of those instruments and voices together pleases them. It's not complicated stuff. I don't like Brian's music because he was fat, or Al's because he's an elf, and if a non-Brian fan suggested it, I guess I'd be offended. monicker doesn't have to like Dennis. Others can. Different music for different people at different times for different purposes.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

You, sir, are a fool, and possibly a troll. Your opinion, which I respect your right to express, is, in this instance, questionable in the extreme.

He's a fool because he doesn't like Dennis' music? If that's what he believes, who the phuck are you to tell him that he's a troll and a fool? Everybody has an opinion. That was his, and if you don't like, tough Sh!t.

[Jon Stebbins]

His opinion is his, and that's fine, but...There is certainly a foolish element to his rationale. The bit about Dennis being musically "opposite" of Brian proves this opinion is not even close to being well thought out. Any true Brian aficionado is aware of the intrinsic similarities to Brian's fingerprint in "Steamboat", "Moonshine", "Time", "End Of The Show", "Tug Of Love", "Love Remember Me", "Coc ktails", "Common", "Album Tag Song" and so many more. No other artist has come closer to finding the textural and emotional territory of Brian's most ambitious material like "Child Is Father To The Man", "Windchimes",  "Don't Talk", "Cabinessence", than Dennis. From my point of view the incredible and beautiful similarity is a gift. Thanks Audree for having another one.

[Jonas]

You, sir, are a fool, and possibly a troll. Your opinion, which I respect your right to express, is, in this instance, questionable in the extreme.

He's a fool because he doesn't like Dennis' music? If that's what he believes, who the phuck are you to tell him that he's a troll and a fool? Everybody has an opinion. That was his, and if you don't like, tough Sh!t.

Amen.

Funny how defensive people can get...

[Andrew G. Doe]

You, sir, are a fool, and possibly a troll. Your opinion, which I respect your right to express, is, in this instance, questionable in the extreme.

He's a fool because he doesn't like Dennis' music? If that's what he believes, who the phuck are you to tell him that he's a troll and a fool? Everybody has an opinion. That was his, and if you don't like, tough Sh!t.

No. He's a fool for not knowing the definition of cheesy or being ably to apply it correctly... no problem with his not liking it (plenty of music that's supposed to be great does nothign for me - e.g. The Smiths and Big Star), but the reasons stated were, frankly, ludicrous. The entire tone of the post was high-class trolling.

And thanks for the gracious way you expressed your thoughts on the subject. Much appreciated.

Amen.

Funny how defensive people can get...

Not half a funny as a mod who's anything but impartial. 

[Sam_BFC]

I love Dennis' music on the whole (although I am not sure I would have got into it without having been heavily into the Beach Boys and Brian first).  However I can kind of understand where people are coming from when they say this kind of thing

I do find a lot of it a bit over the top, sickly sweet in its sentimentality, grandiose in a not-good way.

when I listen to something like Make It Good...also, for me Cuddle Up is so great in parts (the middle piano string section up to and including the block harmony at the start of the last verse) but slightly let down by a slightly OTT chorus.  That's just for me.  But that's like two songs that I can think of.

Not really that odd because nearly all of Dennis' collaborators were primarily lyricists. The only one I can think of that wasn't was Daryl Dragon...and i guess Carl. But Kalinich, Jakobson, Love, Burchman, Cushing-Murray, Lamm etc... All of them were giving Dennis his lyrics or helping him with them.

What about Carli Munoz?

[Jon Stebbins]

What about Carli Munoz?

I think that was more a case of Dennis arranging and singing Carli's songs as opposed to them writing together.

[Mike's Beard]

Cuddle Up is great but that "Honey, Honey, I'm in LUUUUURRRVE!" bit does make my toes curl.