Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)

[drbeachboy]

I wonder if Capitol would have went along with a double album? 

[Peter Reum]

The Smile back slick that I own is marked up for revision...that is, it was not a final print. It is dated a few days to a week or so after the list of tracks sent to Capitol. Clearly this album was in a state of flux. This is not the only time Brian did this. 15 Big Ones was originally a double album as conceived...one album of oldies and one album of new material. As we all know it morphed into a single album of both oldied and new material. The point is that albums are organic...they have a life and they evolve during their creation. Smile is certainly not unique in this respect.

[Jim V.]

The Smile back slick that I own is marked up for revision...that is, it was not a final print. It is dated a few days to a week or so after the list of tracks sent to Capitol. Clearly this album was in a state of flux. This is not the only time Brian did this. 15 Big Ones was originally a double album as conceived...one album of oldies and one album of new material. As we all know it morphed into a single album of both oldied and new material. The point is that albums are organic...they have a life and they evolve during their creation. Smile is certainly not unique in this respect.

Was 15 Big Ones really ever supposed to be a double album? According to whom? It seems Dennis and Carl didn't really want the oldies released, and it seems that Brian only wanted to record the oldies at first, but was convinced to add stuff like "Had to Phone Ya" and "It's OK". And it seems like Mike and Alan just wanted something released so they could make some more money.

The thought of 15 Big Ones as a double album does sound quite nice though.....we'd probably have "Good Timin'", "California Feelin'", "River Song", "Ding Dang", "Angel Come Home".....could've been a final classic Beach Boys album. Actually....the oldies side probably would've stunk. But whatever. I guess I'd rather pine for an all original album of the best 1974-1977 material.

[juggler]

The Smile back slick that I own is marked up for revision...that is, it was not a final print.

Peter, what sort of revisions do the markings suggest?  I've often wondered whether the misspelled "Villians" was to be corrected.

[vintagemusic]

The Smile back slick that I own is marked up for revision...that is, it was not a final print. It is dated a few days to a week or so after the list of tracks sent to Capitol. Clearly this album was in a state of flux. This is not the only time Brian did this. 15 Big Ones was originally a double album as conceived...one album of oldies and one album of new material. As we all know it morphed into a single album of both oldied and new material. The point is that albums are organic...they have a life and they evolve during their creation. Smile is certainly not unique in this respect.


That is very well said. It can never be over estimated, Albums are organic and take on a life
of their own during the process.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Was 15 Big Ones really ever supposed to be a double album? According to whom?

It's well documented in the US rock press of the period. The game plan was originally a "warm-up" album of oldies to get Brian comfortable, then an album of originals. That morphed into a double album (according to Dennis) then into what we have when it became evident that 1976 Brian didn't have the focus of 1966 Brian (notably when he announced "that's it, I'm done, the album's finished").

[Peter Reum]

Hey Juggler, you will get to see to see it yourself soon...patience....

[Bicyclerider]

The Smile back slick that I own is marked up for revision...that is, it was not a final print. It is dated a few days to a week or so after the list of tracks sent to Capitol. Clearly this album was in a state of flux. This is not the only time Brian did this. 15 Big Ones was originally a double album as conceived...one album of oldies and one album of new material. As we all know it morphed into a single album of both oldied and new material. The point is that albums are organic...they have a life and they evolve during their creation. Smile is certainly not unique in this respect.

The back cover slick being produced at all means that the Smile track list was much more defined than say the double album version of 15 Big Ones which never got to a track list or a cover/booklet/back slick being produced, even in mock up form.

[Bicyclerider]

@Peter

People see that unofficial back album cover with the out of sequence tracklisting and are convinced that this is the only way that it could ever be, or that no other songs could be added or subtracted. Had Brian finished the album and released it later in the Summer of 67, there is no telling with that extra time what changes he might of made.

We sort of know what changes he made, don't we?  Smiley Smile, anyone?  But I get your point - to me the album was in flux, but it's not clear what changes were being considered - it was still a 12 track album in March/April and presumably the titles were the same as the track list, as nothing else had been worked on.  Except maybe With Me Tonight (and Carl's Tones).

[The Song Of The Grange]

The Smile back slick that I own is marked up for revision...that is, it was not a final print. It is dated a few days to a week or so after the list of tracks sent to Capitol. Clearly this album was in a state of flux. This is not the only time Brian did this. 15 Big Ones was originally a double album as conceived...one album of oldies and one album of new material. As we all know it morphed into a single album of both oldied and new material. The point is that albums are organic...they have a life and they evolve during their creation. Smile is certainly not unique in this respect.

Peter Reum, you actually own a Smile back-cover slick!? You are one cool dude!

[Peter Reum]

No, we don't know whether it was still a 12 track album. My point is that it may have not stayed the way a lot of people think it was going....I think to draw conclusions, there would have to be much more detail from back then that was from Brian and was first hand data, an interview perhaps, which we don't have. Perhaps what Alan and Mark uncover might add some light to what was done as of December, and what was going on in January through April, which might have been a 12 track album, but after the obsessive/compulsive cycle of record and erase, record and tinker began, the end was over the horizon, and I personally see things slowly but surely unraveling.

[Cam Mott]

It will be interesting to see the track list if we get to. If it is from December and there are a lot of scratch outs and write ins of the 12 titles on the tracklist then it would seem to have been in flux after December. If it is just changes to position of text or mono bar or text other than the titles it wouldn't.

In the more concrete evidence of the recordings, I don't see any real flux in the album especially after December. Brian tried a lot of ideas on the H&V single, just as he had with the GV single, but I don't see any flux in the album. But, maybe we're about to be shown that flux in the docu of the sessions box set.

Well, except I guess he did flux the hell out of it into Smiley Smile but to me that is after the fact...or something....?....

[Bicyclerider]

There are press reports interviewing Brian in March/April (LLVS) that mention "a 12 track album" - that  stays remarkably consistent from December until the "Smile has been junked" announcement.  Of course, each article doesn't list WHAT 12 tracks, but if he's not working on anything new other than the single Heroes and then the single Vegetables, it doesn't seem as if there needs to be (or would have been) any revision to the list . . . again, other than the possible inclusion of Tones and With Me Tonight, tho only With Me Tonight was recorded in a releasable form.

It seems Brian knew he had those 12 tracks to finish to finish the album, and when he couldn't do it in a reasonable amount of time, that's what prompted the "junking" and change to Smiley Smile with a different list of tracks along with some remakes.  

[Peter Reum]

I happen to agree with you "12 trackers" that at one time during the Smile period, a 12 track album was considered. I don`t know if Brian was the source of the December list or not. It is clear that he had never seen it, because when asked about it by Jeff Foskett, he said he never had seen it. That caused a radical shift in my thinking. I think Jeff showed him the list from Dom`s book. That he couldn`t sequence it was due to technical limitations, and in my opinion disorientation from overuse of amphetamine. The source tapes tend to reflect this disorientation and restacking of fragmentary bits of music. Brian told Dom and me about 15 years apart that he was thinking in terms of movements...I don`t know when this thinking entered his mind, but that is consistent years apart. I don`t pretend to have the answers, but anecdotal and recorded evidence point to an album in flux....as Smiley Smile and later, Smile in 2004 indicate that it was.

[Bill Tobelman]

Another possibility that I have never run across is that assembling SMiLE would yield a work akin to a dream. This would be one of the strongest clues as to what SMiLE was to reveal itself to be for consumers ripe enough for the "eureka" moment.

Keeping this dynamic from consumers was of importance to create the proper effect. The 12 track facade served this purpose.

Also, after Brian had doubts about the project he never tried to assemble it because to do so was to enable the proper effect.

[Bicyclerider]

I happen to agree with you "12 trackers" that at one time during the Smile period, a 12 track album was considered. I don`t know if Brian was the source of the December list or not. It is clear that he had never seen it, because when asked about it by Jeff Foskett, he said he never had seen it. That caused a radical shift in my thinking. I think Jeff showed him the list from Dom`s book. That he couldn`t sequence it was due to technical limitations, and in my opinion disorientation from overuse of amphetamine. The source tapes tend to reflect this disorientation and restacking of fragmentary bits of music. Brian told Dom and me about 15 years apart that he was thinking in terms of movements...I don`t know when this thinking entered his mind, but that is consistent years apart. I don`t pretend to have the answers, but anecdotal and recorded evidence point to an album in flux....as Smiley Smile and later, Smile in 2004 indicate that it was.

He doesn't remember seeing it, at the time he was asked, but it's not credible that he wasn't the source of the list originally, no matter if Carl or Diane put the pen to paper - especially if it was Diane which is what the current thinking is. They wouldn't mock up a back cover slick without the approval of the producer, Cam investigated this years ago.

[Peter Reum]

There is a problem with the idea it is Diane`s writing inthat I have fairly extensive samples in both or their hands in my collection. The writing closely resembles Carl`s writing NOT DIane`s. So what we have is a mystery, it is not as cut and dried as one might believe. Not that it isn`t possible that Brian dictated the list to Carl...but it is curious that he doesn`t remember doing it.

[Chris Brown]

There is a problem with the idea it is Diane`s writing inthat I have fairly extensive samples in both or their hands in my collection. The writing closely resembles Carl`s writing NOT DIane`s. So what we have is a mystery, it is not as cut and dried as one might believe. Not that it isn`t possible that Brian dictated the list to Carl...but it is curious that he doesn`t remember doing it.

Brian has said more than a few "curious" things in recent years, things that are either hard to believe or demonstrably false.

In this particular instance, I find it difficult to believe that Brian had never seen the list or that, in 1966, Carl (or anyone, for that matter) would have gone behind Brian's back and submitted a song list to Capitol without significant input from Brian.

[Roger Ryan]

If that twelve-track song list consisted of material that was way out of left-field, I could understand the importance of Brian (or somebody who was there in '66) confirming it. But it seems pretty obvious that the twelve songs listed are the ones that had been worked on for the previous three or four months. The ones where sessions had been held for that aren't listed appear to be ones Parks did not write lyrics for or were productions handled by Carl or Dennis.

The list seems to have been handed in at the last moment when SMiLE the album seemed to have a direction. Within a couple of weeks, Brian doesn't even appear to be working on the album as a whole, but attempting to focus on getting a single together.

[Cam Mott]

I don't doubt Brian does not remember it or means it in some unexpected way. I wonder if he remembers it since then?

There is also a typewritten copy but who typed or wrote the tracklist wouldn't matter. I was told it would not be accepted except from/by the Producer or acted on without review and approval of the Producer [and legal and the art director and another ? department], which was Brian. Is it any different today?  

[Cam Mott]

I'm in a tiny minority who sees Brian working at a very high and organized fashion during SMiLE. He is not excessively or obsessively recording. His thinking is organized and focused and discreet and he knows what every piece is for and where it goes within each song which he identifies on the recordings and in the documentation. He is not lost in his recording of even H&V or obsessive but progressive just as he was with GV. He has an idea, he gets a better idea and he recorded those bits which he has thought out in advance and is identifying where and what is their purpose as they are recorded.

If Brian thought he planned SMiLE to have movements like Rhapsody In Blue and he thought RIB had movements, I wonder what his definition of "movement" was? Does RIB have movements? To me, each song has movements I guess; could that be what he meant? From the very beginning the recordings for songs have fades, how would that work with album movements? With PS he thought of that album as a collection of songs that went to together, could that be what he meant? Like some sort of grouping of discreet songs he thought of as a movement?

[guitarfool2002]

All I want to add to this most fascinating discussion is this: Of all the hours of session tapes and studio material I've listened to through the years, I cannot really think of a single one where Brian sounds disorganized, unfocused, or in some way disconnected with what is going on. In fact on nearly every session out there from 1966 into 1967, he is in command of what's happening. It seems to be the same on the Smiley Smile sessions as well, although there are not nearly as many pieces of "chat" audible on those tapes which have come out.

[Micha]

The back cover slick being produced at all means that the Smile track list was much more defined than say the double album version of 15 Big Ones which never got to a track list or a cover/booklet/back slick being produced, even in mock up form.

I don't think so. I may be wrong, but this only indicates that Capitol wanted SMiLE in the shops as quickly as possible, so they tried to get as much preparation work to be already done when Brian would hand them the finished master. So they made a layout sample for the back cover, and should some song names have been changed in the meantime, that would've been corrected before production. Had the tracklist on that slick really been the final one, they would very likely have produced the back covers to be pasted onto the thousands of front covers. But if I'm not mistaken, the back cover never went into production.

If I understand Peter Reum's hint right, we will get to see the back cover slick with those fabled handwritten notes in the box.

[Micha]

From the very beginning the recordings for songs have fades, how would that work with album movements? ... Like some sort of grouping of discreet songs he thought of as a movement?

This is something I've been thinking about too for a few days now. There's no reason you couldn't say "these four songs form movement one, those four are movement two, and those four movement three". If I did something like this, I would make damn sure it says so on the back cover before it is being produced. This would actually make it easy to split up a movement between the two sides of the LP, however that would be a little bit insatisfactory.
Anyway, I think 12 tracks do not contradict three movements, although it is much more satisfactory when it is done like on BWPS.

Another thing about that whole 12 tracks issue: Why is it it anyway that nearly all those 60s LPs have exactly 12 tracks on them, no more, no less? Does anyone have information about this? Was that some kind of legal obligation in the contracts? Only Pet Sounds and the "live" album have 13, the past-disaster SS and WH have only eleven. "Party" has actually 13 songs, but "I Get Around" and "Little Deuce Coupe" are declared to be a medley, which they aren't, so that one too has 12 tracks.

Could it be possible there was a "12 track" obligation which had its part in the downfall of the ambitious SMiLE project?

[Bill Tobelman]

Just for fun folks....was "Fire" the 13th song recorded?

David Anderle definitely points to "Fire" as the point at which he realized there would be problems with SMiLE. I think Brian's problem with the track had more to do with content than count but it's fun to kick around the idea.