Upcoming BW interview in Village Voice (June 8)

[Jeff]

How about this for an outrageous, far fetched theory? Smile is just a pop/rock album. A great one from one of the top composers and producers of the era. No hidden key to the mysteries of the cosmos, just a fantastic, creative piece of work that fell at the final hurdle due to it's creator's lack of confidence and self inflicted impossibly high standards.

If your post had sound and that sound could be translated as an image of Jean Luc Picard, it would look like this:

What is it with some of you people?  You’re just SO eager to discredit people with theories that suggest any deviation from what you’ve come up with yourself.  Why not consider that everyone here is a big Smile fan?  We’re all on the same side.  Yet you post a smarmy picture in an attempt to rub Bill’s nose in the fact that some random poster agrees with you … really, that’s just mean and uncalled for.

I don’t know which, if any, of Bill’s or Fishmonk’s theories are correct, but at least they get us talking and thinking.  On the other hand, the notion that Smile is nothing more than a well-done, straight-forward pop album basically banishes all such thought, with the implication that anyone who dares to post something interesting should be consigned to the loony bin.  And then you post your juvenile, self-congratulatory picture to emphasize the point.

How ‘bout this—If Smile is so straight-forward, explain to me the lyrics of He Gives Speeches (the specific words, not the overall), and point me to lyrics in any other pop song that remotely compare.

[pixletwin]

I thought Mike's Beard posted a simple, effective and succinct response to Bill's theory. I posted the picture to lighten the mood. Clearly mission accomplished. 

Lighten up Jeff.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I can't speak for anyone else here, but my own personal beef is the fact that they act like their theories are 100% fact and everyone who doesn't agree with them is a fool. More to the point, they continue to argue their point even when presented with evidence that contradicts their viewpoint . That's my issue with it.

[Mike's Beard]

It's more to do with the way they speak about him, you'd think that Brian was the only guy in the mid 60's pop scene to have dropped acid. Everyone and their mother was turning on at the time and as a result music took some very exciting new twists and turns and yes often the lyrics also reflected this. But why this need to insist that Smile is a coded labyrinth of deeply hidden spiritual and philosophical subtext? I could pull any number of drug induced records from the same era out of my asshole and claim the same thing but it is no more or less valid a statement.

P.S.
How could Captain Picard be wrong? 

[drbeachboy]

I can't speak for anyone else here, but my own personal beef is the fact that they act like their theories are 100% fact and everyone who doesn't agree with them is a fool. More to the point, they continue to argue their point even when presented with evidence that contradicts their viewpoint . That's my issue with it.

Actually, I haven't read where Bill was mean spirited in his respones. If someone calls him out on his beliefs, the only thing he has done is put more theories forward to help prove his point. Also, Bill hasn't presented anything as fact. It's just you reacting to it as though it was fact. I don't buy into all of Bill's theories, yet there is something more to Smile then just good pop/rock. It seems all of Brian's & Van Dyke's experiences and partakings of "stuff" did have an effect on the compsitions and suject matters on most of the Smile material.

[Jeff]

I thought Mike's Beard posted a simple, effective and succinct response to Bill's theory. I posted the picture to lighten the mood. Clearly mission accomplished. 

Lighten up Jeff.

Sorry, but I don't think you were trying to lighten the mood.  You were taking a piss on Bill because you don't like his theories.  Basically, you're trying to shame him into falling in line with what YOU think the acceptable view of Smile is.

[pixletwin]

I thought Mike's Beard posted a simple, effective and succinct response to Bill's theory. I posted the picture to lighten the mood. Clearly mission accomplished. 

Lighten up Jeff.

Sorry, but I don't think you were trying to lighten the mood.  You were taking a piss on Bill because you don't like his theories.  Basically, you're trying to shame him into falling in line with what YOU think the acceptable view of Smile is.

lol Well someone is sure seems to be bringing a lot of personal baggage to the discussion and it isn't me. I don't think it's Bill either. So that leaves - who?

Anyhoo, if you cared to investigate my posting history on the subject you'd find that although I don't agree with Bill or Fishmonk I have also stated several time that I enjoyed reading their posts. So I am not sure why you chose to single me out, and in truth I don't really care.  Perhaps you don't like Star Trek? Maybe your life just sucks right now and my post struck a nerve? Whatever it is, as I have already said, you just need to lighten up and accept that this is a discussion board with all sorts of personalities, styles of humor, and Bill I am sure hasn't asked you to be his bodyguard.

Just chill and everything will be alright, mmm-kay?

[Jason]

[Jeff]

I thought Mike's Beard posted a simple, effective and succinct response to Bill's theory. I posted the picture to lighten the mood. Clearly mission accomplished. 

Lighten up Jeff.

Sorry, but I don't think you were trying to lighten the mood.  You were taking a piss on Bill because you don't like his theories.  Basically, you're trying to shame him into falling in line with what YOU think the acceptable view of Smile is.

lol Well someone is sure seems to be bringing a lot of personal baggage to the discussion and it isn't me. I don't think it's Bill either. So that leaves - who?

Anyhoo, if you cared to investigate my posting history on the subject you'd find that although I don't agree with Bill or Fishmonk I have also stated several time that I enjoyed reading their posts. So I am not sure why you chose to single me out, and in truth I don't really care.  Perhaps you don't like Star Trek? Maybe your life just sucks right now and my post struck a nerve? Whatever it is, as I have already said, you just need to lighten up and accept that this is a discussion board with all sorts of personalities, styles of humor, and Bill I am sure hasn't asked you to be his bodyguard.

Just chill and everything will be alright, mmm-kay?

Whatever bud, make it about me if you think that makes for a good excuse.  My point is the same: you and a few others don't like what Bill is saying, and you're trying to beat him into submission.  To me, that's rude, and certainly doesn't do the discussion any good.  More to the point, I like reading what Bill has to say (even if I don't necessrily agree), and I hope he continues.

[pixletwin]

Jeff just report my post to the mods if it bugs you that much, but you are derailing the thread with your lame attempts at vigilante moderation.

oh and...

[Peter Reum]

Smile as released in 2004 is a concept album, and both Brian and Van Dyke have been quoted as saying so several times, most recently in Brian`s Canadian interview series. What can be debated is what was intended in 1967. I think every person brings his own subjective opinion to what Smile was back then.Minimally, it is a brilliant collection of songs. Many people, myself included, based on conversations with Brian and the people who love him, have spoken of his conversations with loved ones at the time where he said he wanted to create music people could pray to. Bill`s ideas about psychedelic experience and Zen Buddhist ideas are as valid as anyone else`s. Some folks don`t like spirituality much, or the idea that an album might be based on that idea. But there are numerous quotes from Brian from the period.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Not saying Bill's ideas don't have a validity, and should be considered, but the way he presents them as the only possible answer, with the attendant implication that any dissenters from this stance are simply too dumb to grasp this notion, isn't making him too many friends. The continued reliance on a completely discredited book doesn't help either, nor does his assertion that there's no point in asking anyone about it directly because they won't let you in on the Big Secret (the standard fallback of the committed conspiracy theorist). It's one small step away from saying "because I say so".

It's also interesting to note that while he's giving us grief for not acceding to his view, he won't brook anyone else's notions.

[Loaf]

Not saying Bill's ideas don't have a validity, and should be considered, but the way he presents them as the only possible answer, with the attendant implication that any dissenters from this stance are simply too dumb to grasp this notion

I think the implication you are drawing is unfair.

As for the Zen idea being the only possible answer, that is unfair too. Bill's website "The Zen Interpretation..." says that "This webpage is based upon the idea that the SMiLE album is in essence a Zen koan, or riddle, an expression of spiritual enlightenment." The words 'interpretation' and 'idea' seem to suggest that it is a personal opinion.

my own personal beef is the fact that they act like their theories are 100% fact and everyone who doesn't agree with them is a fool. More to the point, they continue to argue their point even when presented with evidence that contradicts their viewpoint .

Again, not presented as fact, but as a personal interpretation. And there's nothing wrong with disagreeing with it. No one is a fool for disagreeing with it. Your determination to denigrate not just the idea but the people who agree with it is unhelpful and pointless.

You don't agree with his interpretation, fine. I like it, and that's fine too.

[Loaf]

It's more to do with the way they speak about him, you'd think that Brian was the only guy in the mid 60's pop scene to have dropped acid.

Hmm...strange that an emphasis should be placed on Brian Wilson...on a Beach Boys message board.

But why this need to insist that Smile is a coded labyrinth of deeply hidden spiritual and philosophical subtext?

You used the words 'coded', 'labyrinth' 'deeply hidden' and 'subtext', i presume to make fun and emphasize your point. But really it's no secret that VDP wrote/writes dense, pun-filled, allegorical lyrics with multiple interpretations intended. And the sprituality and philosophy in the music and lyrics seems not so much 'subtext' as 'text'. It's hard to claim that a title like 'Our Prayer', or the attempt to write a 'teenage symphony to God' is a coded labyrinth of deeply hidden spirituality.

I could pull any number of drug induced records from the same era out of my butthole and claim the same thing but it is no more or less valid a statement.

And I'm being serious here, please do! I'm a fan of this kind of music. I realise you were again trying to be humorous, but I'd love to know what other records you think might fall into this category.

And, they don't have to be drug-induced. John Coltrane made a number of incredible, deep, spiritual albums after giving up drugs.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Your determination to denigrate not just the idea but the people who agree with it is unhelpful and pointless.

That's not my intention; my issue with Bill on this topic lies with the continued belief in things that have been proven false, (like Andrew pointed out);the other issue has to do with the fact that some of us were initially denigrated because we didn't share the same views about the music...not the one I'm pointing out here. Some of it is also poking fun (the Alamo/Smart Girls comment, for instance).

  'sides, at least we're talking about Smile and not the f*cking Beatles

[Loaf]

  'sides, at least we're talking about Smile and not the friggin' Beatles

Hey, Paul McCartney said there are seven levels! How many do you think there are? And if you disagree with me, i'll denigrate you!

[The Shift]

When these posts first erupted in another thread I found them wearisome but Bill's taken a lot of care, in my view, to explain his theories, put forward evidence, and to make his posts less ethereal. Heck, even I can understand them now! And I find more and more validity in what he says. That said, I'm a believer in the fact that the BBs, at that stage in their lives (and for the next 45 years, actually) were primarily a pop/rock band making material for a pop/rock market. I don't doubt Bill's theories havea good degree of truth to them – and I believe the truth lies somewhere between the two extremes. Smile was going to be a high-brow rock/pop album which alluded to deeper spiritualities.  There is  no single over-arking theme to the album – there's the Americana/conquest of the west stuff, there's the loss innocence stuff (Wonderful -  which I thought for a long time was about a woman masturbating, though I could be mistaken… and back in the 60s that was unheard of…), there's the elemental stuff…




zzttttssstttstztttz … need to reboot ……zzttttssstttstztttz … need to reboot ……zzttttssstttstztttz … need to reboot ……

[guitarfool2002]

It takes a pretty thick skin to wade into some of the discussions and debates.

[Cam Mott]

It takes a pretty thick skin to wade into some of the discussions and debates.

Boy howdy, right!

[Mike's Beard]

It's more to do with the way they speak about him, you'd think that Brian was the only guy in the mid 60's pop scene to have dropped acid.

Hmm...strange that an emphasis should be placed on Brian Wilson...on a Beach Boys message board.

But why this need to insist that Smile is a coded labyrinth of deeply hidden spiritual and philosophical subtext?

You used the words 'coded', 'labyrinth' 'deeply hidden' and 'subtext', i presume to make fun and emphasize your point. But really it's no secret that VDP wrote/writes dense, pun-filled, allegorical lyrics with multiple interpretations intended. And the sprituality and philosophy in the music and lyrics seems not so much 'subtext' as 'text'. It's hard to claim that a title like 'Our Prayer', or the attempt to write a 'teenage symphony to God' is a coded labyrinth of deeply hidden spirituality.

I could pull any number of drug induced records from the same era out of my butthole and claim the same thing but it is no more or less valid a statement.

And I'm being serious here, please do! I'm a fan of this kind of music. I realise you were again trying to be humorous, but I'd love to know what other records you think might fall into this category.

And, they don't have to be drug-induced. John Coltrane made a number of incredible, deep, spiritual albums after giving up drugs.

Congratulations, you seem to have missed the point of pretty much every statement I made in my post.

[SMiLEY]

Hey hey!

Ol' SMiLEY is back to talk about that Village Voice article!

You guys ARE talking about the Village Voice, right?