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Author Topic: SMiLE Mystery  (Read 47363 times)
DonnyL
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« Reply #150 on: April 08, 2011, 06:51:26 AM »

I mean, what's next to Pet Sounds ? "Tracks" ?  Come ONGrin

stack o tracks

Then why not write that ? Almost all the other boxes have the album name in full.

Again, people here are so wound up in wanting it to be real they're missing the many elephants in the room. Worse, inventing newer, and increasingly outlandish theories. Once more: Steve Desper says it's faked, as does Steve Moffitt. These guys were engineers who were there at the time.

I am quite familiar with the work of Mr Desper and Mr Moffitt, and have nothing but the utmost respect for them.  I do not believe Desper was associated with the Beach Boys during the period in which the photo was taken, and it is quite possible that Moffitt would not have been involved in a transfer project.
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« Reply #151 on: April 08, 2011, 06:57:16 AM »

I do not see how his is a hoax -- it was not created by a fan; the tapes on the top shelf are safety copies, I assume authorized by the Beach Boys and part of their tape library at some point in time, namely circa 1973.  As to why this collection included Capitol-era tapes: perhaps Capitol rented them to the group for the purpose of copying them for their archives (this is perfectly feasible – the group could not legally release them).  Come to think of it, 1972-73 was the period in time in which Brother/Warner would have acquired 2-track masters for SMILEY SMILE, WILD HONEY, FRIENDS and 20/20 (and SMILE material).  Maybe they let them copy the whole deal.  Keep in mind, the engineers that worked on it are not lawyers.  They had access to the Capitol’s archives.   Maybe the group wanted the entire output in their possession.

"I assume...perhaps... Maybe... Maybe..."

The contract with Reprise included all the post-Pet Sounds Capitol albums, granted, but that was signed in early 1970.

If the band couldn't "legally release them", then why bother having copies anyway - they knew where the masters were.

As for the quad mixes assumption... you're basing this on looking at a single photo, the authenticity of which is universally dismissed by those involved with the band and the provenance of which is largely unknown ?  I'll bet you believe the moon landings were faked too, right ?  Grin

i understand the warner contract was signed in 1970 and included pet sounds-20/20/  i am talking about when the time came to actually provide tape copies to the group.  does anyone have any info on which engineers handled this, when it took place, etc?   it is absolutely feasible that the group would wish to have copies of their catalog in their possesion, particularly in light of
their recent dealings with capitol. why would these supposed hoaxter's label extra boxes for the warner albums, the only ones the group would have access to?  why would the hoaxters have access to a temperature controlled tape storage facility with a huge lot of brand new early 70s scotch reels?  this was obviously some kind of specicic project.
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« Reply #152 on: April 08, 2011, 06:59:26 AM »

I fear that meanwhile, on the Hoffman Boards, they're wetting themselves over the 'photo wars' going on here at the moment... Smokin
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« Reply #153 on: April 08, 2011, 07:06:43 AM »

Quote
Ed's original post was looking for real info; but as happens here, consistently, everyone wants to jump in with what couldashouldawoulda, instead of just agreeing they don't know anything useful. 

How can people learn anything if they can't ask questions? Why is it so wrong for someone to say, "Could this be..." and have Mr. Doe explain why it isn't? I like learning and being able to cross possibilities off the list.

If the only people allowed to speak are those who have definitive information the thread would have ended after the first post. I don't see what's so wrong about shooting the sh*t and seeing if any fresh ideas come to light. Forget it.

When I finally make contact with Bob Rolle and he tells me the truth I'll keep it to myself out of spite. I'll file it right next to the real reason why Andy Paley doesn't work with Brian anymore. Har har hardee har har.  Evil
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #154 on: April 08, 2011, 07:12:41 AM »

I mean, what's next to Pet Sounds ? "Tracks" ?  Come ONGrin

stack o tracks

Then why not write that ? Almost all the other boxes have the album name in full.

Again, people here are so wound up in wanting it to be real they're missing the many elephants in the room. Worse, inventing newer, and increasingly outlandish theories. Once more: Steve Desper says it's faked, as does Steve Moffitt. These guys were engineers who were there at the time.

I am quite familiar with the work of Mr Desper and Mr Moffitt, and have nothing but the utmost respect for them.  I do not believe Desper was associated with the Beach Boys during the period in which the photo was taken, and it is quite possible that Moffitt would not have been involved in a transfer project.

Steve D compiled a Smile reel with Carl - if he says the "Dumb Angel" box isn't that reel, I believe him. As for Steve M, he's stated that this isn't the Brother vault, which eliminates one of the main reasons for believing it to be genuine.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #155 on: April 08, 2011, 07:23:49 AM »

I do not see how his is a hoax -- it was not created by a fan; the tapes on the top shelf are safety copies, I assume authorized by the Beach Boys and part of their tape library at some point in time, namely circa 1973.  As to why this collection included Capitol-era tapes: perhaps Capitol rented them to the group for the purpose of copying them for their archives (this is perfectly feasible – the group could not legally release them).  Come to think of it, 1972-73 was the period in time in which Brother/Warner would have acquired 2-track masters for SMILEY SMILE, WILD HONEY, FRIENDS and 20/20 (and SMILE material).  Maybe they let them copy the whole deal.  Keep in mind, the engineers that worked on it are not lawyers.  They had access to the Capitol’s archives.   Maybe the group wanted the entire output in their possession.

"I assume...perhaps... Maybe... Maybe..."

The contract with Reprise included all the post-Pet Sounds Capitol albums, granted, but that was signed in early 1970.

If the band couldn't "legally release them", then why bother having copies anyway - they knew where the masters were.

As for the quad mixes assumption... you're basing this on looking at a single photo, the authenticity of which is universally dismissed by those involved with the band and the provenance of which is largely unknown ?  I'll bet you believe the moon landings were faked too, right ?  Grin

i understand the warner contract was signed in 1970 and included pet sounds-20/20/  i am talking about when the time came to actually provide tape copies to the group.  does anyone have any info on which engineers handled this, when it took place, etc?   it is absolutely feasible that the group would wish to have copies of their catalog in their possesion, particularly in light of
their recent dealings with capitol. why would these supposed hoaxter's label extra boxes for the warner albums, the only ones the group would have access to?  why would the hoaxters have access to a temperature controlled tape storage facility with a huge lot of brand new early 70s scotch reels?  this was obviously some kind of specicic project.

To address the "temperature controlled" aspect - the only evidence for this is a $5 greenhouse max/min thermometer lying on a table behind the racks, when it should be mounted on the wall on insulating blocks in plain sight. A truly temperature-controlled vault would have thermostatically controlled AC, not someone looking at an instrument of questionable accuracy (my father used to grow orchids, so I speak with some authority on this point) and either opening or closing a door.

And again, you're assuming there's anything in those boxes. They were easy enough to buy empty, and cheap.

As for Capitol providing copies of the post 1966 album to Reprise, why not just give them the actual masters ? That's always been my reading of the contract.  As for the 1962-65 albums... why would they want copies anyway ? They had no use for them: Capitol held - and still holds - the rights to those masters. All the band could legally do was look at them, maybe play them now and then. That's all.
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« Reply #156 on: April 08, 2011, 07:26:49 AM »

I mean, what's next to Pet Sounds ? "Tracks" ?  Come ONGrin

stack o tracks

Then why not write that ? Almost all the other boxes have the album name in full.

Andrew, how does that prove anything?  If they were going to fake a setup like this... wouldn't they write the full name of a RELEASED album?  The only person who would half-ass it would be someone who WASNT an obsessive fan!  Look how worked up you are over it.  If you (a huge fan) made this mock up, you never would have done that. 
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« Reply #157 on: April 08, 2011, 07:33:00 AM »

I mean, what's next to Pet Sounds ? "Tracks" ?  Come ONGrin

stack o tracks

Then why not write that ? Almost all the other boxes have the album name in full.

Andrew, how does that prove anything?  If they were going to fake a setup like this... wouldn't they write the full name of a RELEASED album?  The only person who would half-ass it would be someone who WASNT an obsessive fan!  Look how worked up you are over it.  If you (a huge fan) made this mock up, you never would have done that. 

My point was in replying to the poster who countered my incredulity at labelling a box "tracks" by claiming it was an abbreviation of SO'T, not the original intent. More, you'd have to be a reasonably clued in fan to even know about that album.  Grin

The only thing I'm even mildly worked up over is the people wandering about whispering to each other "don't mention the elephant...".
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« Reply #158 on: April 08, 2011, 07:44:15 AM »

The writing style looks to be the same on the spines for the two Party tape reel boxes shown piled up on the Stack-o-Tracks cover - check out the T, A and M capitals in particular. Anyone able to read the others? Like Andrew has said this could just have been used as a template for an elaborate hoax, but this does rather beg the question - why? Clearly these are not the same (mix-down or album master) tape boxes shown in Ed's photo but they could be straight copies of said masters supplied to BRI, Brian on a-n-other as an artist back-up? Would be interesting to compare labels and handwriting for authentic tape boxes and listings from the Capitol vaults to compare. The capitalization used is pretty distinctive. Do we have known writing samples from Chuck Britz or studio personnel, for example?

More questions, I know .....
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« Reply #159 on: April 08, 2011, 08:09:57 AM »

The one thing I haven't heard anyone state - another elephant apparently - if this is a hoax, what was the motive?  Why would anyone do this in 73-74, if that is when it was done based on what albums are on the tape boxes?  And if they did fake a tape vault photo, how did it end up in Ed's collection?

Assuming it is a fake, just because the tape boxes only go up to 73-74 doesn't mean that's when the photo was taken.  I mean, the guy is perpetrating a hoax, he doesn't have to include tape box album titles right up to when he faked the photo.  He may have wanted the photo to appear to be from 73-74, figuring no one would remember what the Brother tape vault looked like back then.
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« Reply #160 on: April 08, 2011, 08:12:37 AM »

Another point about Stephen saying the Dumb Angel box was not the Smile comp tape he put together - he can't see inside the box, so how does he know?  Obviously someone has reboxed all these tapes (uniform writing etc.) or if these are copies they wouldn't be in the original box.  Would the eight track comp tape not fit in this box (which is the only way Stephen could be sure his tape wasn't in the box, titled differently).
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« Reply #161 on: April 08, 2011, 08:31:05 AM »

Another point about Stephen saying the Dumb Angel box was not the Smile comp tape he put together - he can't see inside the box, so how does he know?  Obviously someone has reboxed all these tapes (uniform writing etc.) or if these are copies they wouldn't be in the original box.  Would the eight track comp tape not fit in this box (which is the only way Stephen could be sure his tape wasn't in the box, titled differently).

Maybe because the actual box for the tape he compiled didn't say "Dumb Angel" ?

I'm trying to wrap my brain around the following scenario:

"OK, so that's the 1972 Desper Smile comp reel copied... now, let's label it... yeah, I know - "Dumb Angel" !"

"Obviously someone has reboxed all these tapes"

See, there you go again - with no proof whatsoever, you're assuming 1) there are tapes in the box and 2) they're what the labels say they are.  That's what I mean when I say I'm looking at this from the basis of what I can see, while you're working from the standpoint of what you want it to be. One of us is being objective (probably overly so, toppling into skeptical if not actually cynical), one isn't.  Grin
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #162 on: April 08, 2011, 08:35:04 AM »

The one thing I haven't heard anyone state - another elephant apparently - if this is a hoax, what was the motive?  Why would anyone do this in 73-74, if that is when it was done based on what albums are on the tape boxes?  And if they did fake a tape vault photo, how did it end up in Ed's collection?

Going back to the Bellagio/Smile Shop model I referred to earlier, what was the motive there ? I've seen precisely two photos of it (in The Rainbow Files, a rareish BB reference book from the mid-90s). They just did it for the yucks. Because they wanted to.

As for how Ed got hold of it, didn't he say he thought someone gave it to Dennis ?
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« Reply #163 on: April 08, 2011, 08:53:18 AM »

Another observation: I took a closer look and believe these could be 14” reels.  If you look at the size of the consumer 7” inch tapes to the left and compare, the Beach Boys-labeled tapes appear to be twice the length – but it is too hard to tell based on the angles.  This would make sense if they were dubbed at 15 ips, since a 10.5” reel only holds 30 minutes; a 14” reel holds 60 minutes.  If they are 10.5”reels, then some of the albums (namely the warner era) could not fit on the reels.  Typically, “SIDE ONE” and “SIDE TWO” masters would be on separate tapes.  They COULD be at 7.5 ips copies, but then they would only be a reference copy in that case.
 
The tapes on the top are ¼”.  There are two ¼” “PET SOUNDS” tapes, the one on top is presumably duophonic, as the one on the middle shelf says “MONO”.  The tapes on the middle shelf are 1/4” tapes from “ADD SOME MUSIC TO YOUR DAY” through “SPRING”, then 1/2” from “BELLIAGO/HOLLAND” through “SUNFLOWER”.  I cannot tell what is going on with the ones after that; looks like ¼” again.
 
Another possibility for the naysayers: this could possibly something designed for some kind of audio event to show off different tape machines, speaker systems, etc … but the inexplicable inclusion of “DUMB ANGEL” etc does not make sense.  Someone would have to be an OBSESSIVE beach boys fan (with some inside information) or the group would have to have been involved in this event somehow.
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« Reply #164 on: April 08, 2011, 08:54:44 AM »

The tape boxes in the photo are Scotch brand with the design of the late-‘60s-early ‘70s (you can see most of the Scotch boxes on the Stack O Tracks cover are of a different design, circa early-mid ‘60s).  Scotch changed the design from those white boxed sometime in the mid-‘70s.  If the photo is a hoax that was created later than ’73-’74, it would have to have been done by someone who knows a lot about vintage tapes AND the beach boys, and I am probably the only one in the world who meets that criteria!
 
And Mr. Doe, i believe there are most certainly tapes in the boxes.  I don’t know how or why someone would bulk order 3M tape boxes; I doubt 3M even sold JUST BOXES!  That is completely absurd.  The boxes are not generic; they are of a very specific design, particularly the ½” tapes with the distinct “box within a box” foldout design – trust me on this.
 
I am not saying I know what is on the tapes.  It could very well be just some audio enthusiast who had a lot of spare income to play with tape machines and was an obsessed beach boys fan.  But there are other theories to be explored.
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« Reply #165 on: April 08, 2011, 08:56:14 AM »

See, there you go again - with no proof whatsoever, you're assuming 1) there are tapes in the box and 2) they're what the labels say they are.  That's what I mean when I say I'm looking at this from the basis of what I can see, while you're working from the standpoint of what you want it to be. One of us is being objective (probably overly so, toppling into skeptical if not actually cynical), one isn't.  Grin

See, there you go again - with no proof whatsoever, you're assuming 1) there are no tapes in the boxes and 2) they're not what the clearly visible labels say they are.  That's what I mean when I say I'm looking at this from the basis of common sense; that when someone goes through the trouble of compiling organized shelves filled with recording tape boxes that these boxes would also, most likely, be housing actual tapes and, logically, the tapes would contain the materials listed on the box spines.   Afro

I'm starting to think that a young fan named Doe took this picture a long time ago and is trying to steer us away from his secret stash!  Grin
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« Reply #166 on: April 08, 2011, 09:07:46 AM »

I'm starting to think that a young fan named Doe took this picture a long time ago and is trying to steer us away from his secret stash!  Grin

Secret stashes belong in the "SMiLE Sessions box set!" thread, suuurley!
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« Reply #167 on: April 08, 2011, 09:15:50 AM »

Great posts, DonnyL!  Thumbs Up

Still waiting for Mr. Doe to explain his theory with such arguments.
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« Reply #168 on: April 08, 2011, 09:31:33 AM »



so explain why this may be real....  Cheesy
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« Reply #169 on: April 08, 2011, 09:39:10 AM »

Great posts, DonnyL!  Thumbs Up

Still waiting for Mr. Doe to explain his theory with such arguments.

As you wish.

"The tape boxes in the photo are Scotch brand with the design of the late-‘60s-early ‘70s (you can see most of the Scotch boxes on the Stack O Tracks cover are of a different design, circa early-mid ‘60s)."

Only one of the boxes in question is showing a design, so I'll agree that it is a Scotch box: the others have either no design, or if there is one, it's covered by the label. Could be generic storage boxes, could be Scotch boxes: we have no way of knowing. But thanks, that's a very useful observation as it narrows the time frame for when these tapes (if they are genuine) were made.

"And Mr. Doe, i believe there are most certainly tapes in the boxes."

Good, I like that wording. Not assuming. I believe there may not be tapes in those boxes: again, no way to be certain from the photo.

"I don’t know how or why someone would bulk order 3M tape boxes; I doubt 3M even sold JUST BOXES!"

Refer to my first comment: only one box is unquestionably Scotch. "London".

"The boxes are not generic; they are of a very specific design, particularly the ½” tapes with the distinct “box within a box” foldout design – trust me on this."

Not being sarcastic here, this is a genuine request: how can you tell from this photo ? Can you show me the signs, or point me to an image of the box that I can compare it with ? You have expertise in this area, I don't. If I may observe, though, the boxes on the upper shelf are manifestly thinner, so not of the same design (are they ?).
 
"I am not saying I know what is on the tapes.  It could very well be just some audio enthusiast who had a lot of spare income to play with tape machines and was an obsessed beach boys fan."

Again, good observation: I could write on a piece of paper "current balance in my account £10,000,000 credit", but that doesn't make it true. I've got some BB albums labelled stereo that are decidedly not.  Grin

"But there are other theories to be explored."

Always. It's what we do here.  Grin
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« Reply #170 on: April 08, 2011, 09:56:21 AM »

The one thing I haven't heard anyone state - another elephant apparently - if this is a hoax, what was the motive?  Why would anyone do this in 73-74, if that is when it was done based on what albums are on the tape boxes?  And if they did fake a tape vault photo, how did it end up in Ed's collection?

Going back to the Bellagio/Smile Shop model I referred to earlier, what was the motive there ? I've seen precisely two photos of it (in The Rainbow Files, a rareish BB reference book from the mid-90s). They just did it for the yucks. Because they wanted to.

As for how Ed got hold of it, didn't he say he thought someone gave it to Dennis ?

Strange lengths to go to for yucks, and that still doesn't explain it fully.  "Because they wanted to," well, why would somebody want to set this up?  If it's a "hoax" and somebody wanted to do it for yucks, it is an awfully small crowd to target.  And I feel like somebody would have admitted to it by now--otherwise what's the payoff?

If it is "fake" but not a "hoax" I could see it being some sort of loving monument to the Beach Boys recorded output.  A personal shrine of sorts.  That makes more sense than an intentional hoax.
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« Reply #171 on: April 08, 2011, 09:57:36 AM »

As for how Ed got hold of it, didn't he say he thought someone gave it to Dennis ?

There we go. It was all a hoax cooked up by Dennis in 1973 as a joke to screw up fans later on  LOL
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« Reply #172 on: April 08, 2011, 10:02:37 AM »

The one thing I haven't heard anyone state - another elephant apparently - if this is a hoax, what was the motive?  Why would anyone do this in 73-74, if that is when it was done based on what albums are on the tape boxes?  And if they did fake a tape vault photo, how did it end up in Ed's collection?

Going back to the Bellagio/Smile Shop model I referred to earlier, what was the motive there ? I've seen precisely two photos of it (in The Rainbow Files, a rareish BB reference book from the mid-90s). They just did it for the yucks. Because they wanted to.

As for how Ed got hold of it, didn't he say he thought someone gave it to Dennis ?

Strange lengths to go to for yucks, and that still doesn't explain it fully.  "Because they wanted to," well, why would somebody want to set this up?  If it's a "hoax" and somebody wanted to do it for yucks, it is an awfully small crowd to target.  And I feel like somebody would have admitted to it by now--otherwise what's the payoff?

If it is "fake" but not a "hoax" I could see it being some sort of loving monument to the Beach Boys recorded output.  A personal shrine of sorts.  That makes more sense than an intentional hoax.

Josh, you've been closer to real archives/vaults than any of us - what's your 1) gut feeling and 2) considered response ?

And, nice distinction between "hoax" and "fake". I think it's the latter. Like the board Chuck rigged for Murry.


As for how Ed got hold of it, didn't he say he thought someone gave it to Dennis ?

There we go. It was all a hoax cooked up by Dennis in 1973 as a joke to screw up fans later on  LOL

Aaahhhh, those wacky Wilsons, huh ?  Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 10:05:08 AM by Andrew G. Doe » Logged

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« Reply #173 on: April 08, 2011, 10:16:42 AM »

This is not like a UFO hoax where thousands and thousands of people get hung up on it.
If it were a hoax, that's an awful lot of work and energy spent on a elaborate joke that only 20 people actually give a sh*t about. Think about it.
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« Reply #174 on: April 08, 2011, 10:17:26 AM »

Imagine one Polaroid photo causing so much discussion! It's too bad we couldn't get Jim Garrison on the job. Grin
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