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Author Topic: SMiLE Mystery  (Read 47406 times)
guitarfool2002
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« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2011, 10:25:29 AM »



Just for size comparison, these are 2 standard Sony 1/4" reels in their boxes next to a CD. The boxes in the RoachClips photo look bigger, but as mentioned not big enough for 2" master reels. And why would a fan have anything larger than the standard tape format, which was the 1/4"? Or why would they use (waste) larger professional grade multitrack tape for dubs of Beach Boys albums? Mysterious...

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« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2011, 10:28:25 AM »

ah..in concert came out a little before then...  Smiley

Yes, the album was released in '73.  Alan had just mentioned that they played there in July '74.  My mistake.
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« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2011, 10:47:44 AM »

What is the "Remote/St. Paul" box?

Remote = live: in the famous shot of a shelf of Smile tapes from the 1993 box booklet, you can clearly see that legendary outtake "Sacramento Remote".  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2011, 10:51:55 AM »

If tapes were inside all the boxes, the dumb angel box could have held one of the 8 track assembly copies Carl and Desper put together in 1971-72 - maybe the title of the box was an inside joke, not indicating some pre-Smile title change tape.

Has Desper ever commented on this picture?

Desper is convinced that it is a fake!

I think the photo is genuine... but I seriously doubt there's anything in those boxes... or if there is, not a note of it was recorded by anyone called Wilson, Wilson, Wilson, Love, Marks, Jardine, Johnston, Fataar or Chaplin.  Grin
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« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2011, 11:00:57 AM »

What is the "Remote/St. Paul" box?

Remote = live: in the famous shot of a shelf of Smile tapes from the 1993 box booklet, you can clearly see that legendary outtake "Sacramento Remote".  Roll Eyes
Yeah, I done knowed that. I know what remote means, but I'd never heard of a St. Paul, MN live recording.
And if this is a fan collection pictured, why hasn't that concert been passed about?
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« Reply #30 on: April 06, 2011, 11:50:54 AM »

What is the "Remote/St. Paul" box?

Remote = live: in the famous shot of a shelf of Smile tapes from the 1993 box booklet, you can clearly see that legendary outtake "Sacramento Remote".  Roll Eyes
Yeah, I done knowed that. I know what remote means, but I'd never heard of a St. Paul, MN live recording.
And if this is a fan collection pictured, why hasn't that concert been passed about?

Maybe because it doesn't exist ?  Smiley

OK, known gigs in St. Paul:

8/2/63
5/14/68 (cancelled)
7/9/68 (2 shows)
7/22/74
11/3/75
7/2/78

So, if it is kosher, it'd have to be from 1963 (highly unlikely) or 1968.  Given what Ed's told us of what others feel, and the evidence of the photo I'd say that, for God only knows what reason, some fan has made a full-scale model of what they think the Brother tape racks looked like.
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Blake Alan
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« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2011, 11:52:26 AM »

No major revelations here (sorry!), but here are a couple of things I noticed:

  • As Bicyclerider said earlier, the boxes are a little too uniform. All of the lines below "The Beach Boys" pretty much line up all the way across the top row of tapes. Also, the album names are pretty well centered in the space below the aforementioned lines. Someone was fairly careful and meticulous (OCD?) about the labeling of the boxes, certainly not a sign of the Beach Boys handiwork. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure the words "careful" or "meticulous" have EVER been used to describe the Boys' handling of their recorded works. Given the uniformity of the boxes, I don't think it would be much of a stretch to say these were all made about the same time.


  • I'm having a hard time reading some of the boxes, but it looks like anything that's not an actual Beach Boys album is in a white box (except for the yellow 'Vegetables' box), while the full albums are all in yellow boxes. That said, if there were actual tapes in these, then it's probably safe to say the white "Brian - Dumb Angel" box doesn't contain a completed album (though we already know that, since one never existed), but rather a compilation of recordings or demos (like the white box next to it that says "Misc. Beach Boy Material").


  • I almost completely buy into the whole "this is a fan display with nothing actually in the boxes"... except for the whole St. Paul thing. That's really bugging me. I understand why a fan might make a "Dumb Angel" box for their display (heck, I  made up a Smile jewel case for my CD collection), but why would someone make a phony tape box for a show that was never released in any way? (BTW, anyone know if that '74 show would have been recorded?) It just seems too isolated, and too random an item for someone to make up. Maybe if there were lots of other remote recordings in this collection, but it seems that everything else corresponds to a known live album. I would also consider the possibility that the St. Paul box were a fan recording, but the "Remote" term leads me to believe it was done with a professional remote recording facility. Is it possible this Rolle or Bramsem guy lived in Minnesota and/or was involved with the show in question?


  • Again, I can't make out all the boxes, but it looks like there's nothing from the Boys' catalog after '73 (please correct me if I'm wrong). I don't see 15 Big Ones or Endless Summer, so I guess the latest thing in this collection would have been the '74 St. Paul box (though, according to AGD's site the St. Paul show took place about a month after Endless Summer was released). So can we infer that this photo was taken between July of '74 and July of '76 when Big Ones was released? Not sure... maybe this guy just wasn't a fan of anything post- In Concert.



  • Anyone make anything of the fact that the albums are in reversed order? Maybe this is just personal preference, but when displaying something chronologically, I always go left (earliest) to right (latest). Hmmm... maybe it's a British thing   Razz



So what does all this mean? Who knows... but I think the "St. Paul" box alone deserves a little more investigation before we can close the case on this one just yet...

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« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2011, 12:07:44 PM »

 Cheesy Speculation runs amok! Maybe this guy was at a St. Paul show, bootlegged it from the audience, and transferred it to a reel. Again though the size of the reel boxes bothers me, as you normally wouldn't use anything above a consumer-grade tape (1/4") to catalog dubs of albums. And if the guy spent hours trying to replicate his vision of the Brother vaults with empty fantasy boxes as a fun project, I'd suggest he'd be better off getting into model trains.
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« Reply #33 on: April 06, 2011, 12:20:27 PM »

OK... so if these are pukka tapes... the labelling is beyond pointless. "St. Paul remote" - when ?  "Summer concert" - when, where ?  "Concert LA/NYC" - when ?

Everything about this shouts "faked".
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« Reply #34 on: April 06, 2011, 12:52:15 PM »

What's bugging me is that big sticker, clear as day, that says 'roachclips' on it. Has anyone found out what it could mean???
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« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2011, 12:54:32 PM »

OK... so if these are pukka tapes... the labelling is beyond pointless. "St. Paul remote" - when ?  "Summer concert" - when, where ?  "Concert LA/NYC" - when ?

Everything about this shouts "faked".


Hmm... I couldn't make out the "LA/NYC" label earlier, thanks for pointing that out. It does seem odd that there are several ambiguous, non-dated concerts in the collection. I would think someone so careful about labeling would have the dates and show venues listed on the tapes... were they legit, that is. But then again, if they're making up stuff anyway, why not just make up a date and throw it on there??

Anyway, I zoomed in on the photo and have a couple of other quick questions...

1) One of the boxes says "Add Some Music To Your Day". Would a fan in the early 70's have known this was the original title of the first Warner Brothers album?

2) Another box is labeled "London". I'm assuming (dangerous, I know) that this refers to the December '68 show released as "Live in London"... Would a U.S. fan in the early '70s be aware of this British release (since it wasn't given a stateside release until '76)?
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« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2011, 01:00:05 PM »

But then again, if they're making up stuff anyway, why not just make up a date and throw it on there??

Because he predicted the existence of the "internet" and knew some day his fake concerts could be easily debunked. This troll is playing it safe.
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« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2011, 01:04:12 PM »

What bugs me is these guys seem pretty up on The Beach Boys, you think somebody would know them. If these guys built a replica shelf of BB masters and sought out Dennis to show him their handiwork you think they would have attended a fan convention or something along the way, or joined a mailing list, or talked to somebody somewhere along the way.
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« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2011, 01:04:25 PM »

But then again, if they're making up stuff anyway, why not just make up a date and throw it on there??

Because he predicted the existence of the "internet" and knew some day his fake concerts could be easily debunked. This troll is playing it safe.

He's a smart little S.O.B., ain't he?
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« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2011, 01:16:41 PM »

What's bugging me is that big sticker, clear as day, that says 'roachclips' on it. Has anyone found out what it could mean???


My team is working on it.
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« Reply #40 on: April 06, 2011, 01:21:38 PM »

What bugs me is these guys seem pretty up on The Beach Boys, you think somebody would know them. If these guys built a replica shelf of BB masters and sought out Dennis to show him their handiwork you think they would have attended a fan convention or something along the way, or joined a mailing list, or talked to somebody somewhere along the way.

The thing that's puzzling me is, they got the labels the right shade of yellow... butt he actual markings all wrong: it's as if they'd seen the boxes on the Stack O'Tracks cover, but not clearly enough to get all the detail. I'm dating it to before the first edition of David Leaf's book, as if they#d seen the pics of the tape boxes in there, they'd know to have more than just the album/song title.

Anyway, I zoomed in on the photo and have a couple of other quick questions...

1) One of the boxes says "Add Some Music To Your Day". Would a fan in the early 70's have known this was the original title of the first Warner Brothers album?

2) Another box is labeled "London". I'm assuming (dangerous, I know) that this refers to the December '68 show released as "Live in London"... Would a U.S. fan in the early '70s be aware of this British release (since it wasn't given a stateside release until '76)?

1 - But it wasn't the title of the first Reprise album, rather the single: the album was set to be simply Add Some Music.

2 - Good point, although I'm sure import copies made it over to the US pretty quickly.

Some things they seem to know well, other simple stuff they fall down on. Most confusing... but still a fake.
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« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2011, 01:24:20 PM »

So we're all interested in this because of what might be in the Dumb Angel box. But what could have been? What would have needed to transpire for that box to contain material that is unavailable anywhere else?

Copies were made of all the SMiLE material by Carl right? Do all those copies still exist? Does that mean that all the material currently missing was stolen prior to 1971? Who had access to the tape vaults back then? Is there anyway to check to see if a Robert Rolle or Paul Bramsem was ever employed by Capital?

We only care about this picture because of the off chance that one of those tapes contains unheard material. But in order for that to be the case, it seems one of those guys would have to have stolen tapes from the vaults. And if neither Robert Rolle or Paul Bramsem ever worked in any capacity where they would have access to BB tapes, then we can probably rule out the possibility that there is unique material on those shelves.
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« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2011, 01:27:09 PM »

I think the solution is simple: inter-dimensional beings are among us. They took a picture of the tape vaults of their dimension's Beach Boys, a group which kept their vaults well organized, realeased an album called "Add Some Music", had their leader Brian release a solo called "Dumb Angel", and put out a much loved live album culled from recordings made in St. Paul Minnesota (whose baseball team The Twins have won the World Series a record 43 times).
 

Robert Rolle and Paul Bramsem are also solely responsible for the Sea of Tunes boots.  Cool Guy
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« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2011, 01:32:57 PM »

Here's the pic in better quality:

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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2011, 01:38:35 PM »

I mean, what's next to Pet Sounds ? "Tracks" ?  Come ONGrin
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« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2011, 01:39:16 PM »

I think the solution is simple: inter-dimensional beings are among us. They took a picture of the tape vaults of their dimension's Beach Boys, a group which kept their vaults well organized, realeased an album called "Add Some Music", had their leader Brian release a solo called "Dumb Angel", and put out a much loved live album culled from recordings made in St. Paul Minnesota (whose baseball team The Twins have won the World Series a record 43 times).
 
Robert Rolle and Paul Bramsem are also solely responsible for the Sea of Tunes boots.  Cool Guy

Case closed. Shut. Down. Everything.
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« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2011, 01:51:26 PM »

OK... so if these are pukka tapes... the labelling is beyond pointless. "St. Paul remote" - when ?  "Summer concert" - when, where ?  "Concert LA/NYC" - when ?

Everything about this shouts "faked".




2) Another box is labeled "London". I'm assuming (dangerous, I know) that this refers to the December '68 show released as "Live in London"... Would a U.S. fan in the early '70s be aware of this British release (since it wasn't given a stateside release until '76)?

it was available as an import around late 72 early 73. i got a copy then. it had ads for it in the major music mags back then. i believe it was a dutch release. different cover than 70 issue.
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« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2011, 01:52:50 PM »

also he spelled tough as tuff on the label?
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« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2011, 01:53:50 PM »

This search should be taken to social media really.
I'd recommend putting up ads on the LA craigslist asking for information. Maybe you'll stumble upon some guy who had a friend of a friend who used to brag about having stolen tapes or something.
It seems like the best option.
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« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2011, 01:59:51 PM »


1 - But it wasn't the title of the first Reprise album, rather the single: the album was set to be simply Add Some Music.

2 - Good point, although I'm sure import copies made it over to the US pretty quickly.

Some things they seem to know well, other simple stuff they fall down on. Most confusing... but still a fake.



it was available as an import around late 72 early 73. i got a copy then. it had ads for it in the major music mags back then.


Ahhh, I see. Thanks for clearing that up, this place is a wealth of knowledge.
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