Let's talk "This Whole World" again--new hypothesis

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Those of you who know me know that I've long been fascinated by this track.  Yesterday, while at work, the Byrds live at the Fillmore was on, and for some reason when "Tambourine Man" came on it struck me as a very similar sort of sound and idea to This Whole World.  The original recording of that song came firmly out of that same wonderful tradition that Brian's productions did, and the Live version on that album remains rooted to that original sound, except of course that Clarence White is playing tasty B-bender country licks over it.

And so I wonder if Brian was hip to this sound and it informed This Whole World.  Certainly the timing is right.  What is interesting is that Brian brought in a couple of interesting session players; David Cohen (whom I've been trying to track down for years) and John Conrad.  Cohen seems to have been a bit of a country-folkie type, and John Conrad seems to have played bass with Gram Parsons, appearing for the Beach Boys just this once.  Perhaps Brian brought these guys in for a specific reason.

Unfortunately, the guitars in the final mix are mixed very low, and much of the effect is lost.  This is definitely one of my top "wanna have access to the multitracks" recordings so I could isolate them.  Cohen's playing is very cool and very much in the vein of White.  In earlier takes, he actually is even more busy and plays some very pedal-steely kind of stuff.

So, was This Whole World Brian's reaction to the Byrds?  What do you think?

[bgas]

Nah

[Bicyclerider]

Mr. Tambourine Man was the Birds answer to Don't Worry Baby!

[Ron]

There's certainly a similarity there.  Hard to say if it's intentional.  It's kind of strange though, the VERSE of "this whole world" sounds like the CHORUS of "Tamborine Man".  Good ears, I never noticed that. 

[Mikie]

Mr. Tamborine Man is a real good song.  But Mr. Tamborine Man doesn't change keys in the middle like This Whole World, which is just brilliant. Mr. Tamborine Man ain't as good as This Whole World, which is definitely one of Brian's all-time best songs. Any one of The Boys coulda sang that song well, but Carl really put it over the top.

Personally, I don't think the Tamborine Man influenced This Whole World. Maybe after a few beers and a J, but I don't.....really.....hear......the simularities there.

[Ron]

Make no mistake, This Whole World rocks Mr. Tamborine man any day of the week.  I do hear a similarity there though.  The acapella thing at the end of This Whole World blows me away everytime I hear it, especially Mike's lowwwww part in that.  SoundsLikeaHeaven

[Loaf]

Sorry, I don't see any connection between any version of Mr Tambourine Man and This Whole World, apart from both being great songs.

TWW has a soul music influence, but apart from that seems to be pure Brian Wilson music, with the added gifts of Carl's interpretation.


Maybe if i got to hear the alt mixes and earlier takes I might be able to hear what you're hearing... hint hint

[hypehat]

I for one would love to hear those guitars more in the mix - What they're playing during the middle eight is astonishing!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Note that I'm not suggesting that Tambourine Man alone influenced TWW, that was simply where I heard the "wall of sound"/"late 60s Byrds" fusion the best.  My main hypothesis is that Brian went into that production with Byrdsy country-rock in mind and it, of course, came out as something else.

And I still am fascinated that John Conrad was hired to play bass for the Beach Boys just this once, particularly since there was already a bass player at the session in Ray Pohlman.  Certainly there's precedence for two electric basses on a track, but why John Conrad, who as I said, is associated with Gram Parsons.

[Scott]

Josh-

I don't know if this will help.  I met a guy named David Bennett Cohen when I was subbing on the show RENT in NYC.  He was a keyboard/guitar sub, and he told me that he played with Country Joe.  Although a piano player, he played guitar very well!

http://www.davidbennettcohen.com/

Scott Totten

[Bill M]

Unfortunately, the guitars in the final mix are mixed very low, and much of the effect is lost.  This is definitely one of my top "wanna have access to the multitracks" recordings so I could isolate them.  Cohen's playing is very cool and very much in the vein of White.  In earlier takes, he actually is even more busy and plays some very pedal-steely kind of stuff.

I've never heard the earlier takes.  I think this is pretty interesting stuff here.  Is it possible that Cohen may have been playing a B-bender for these sessions?  They're still played, to this day, by guitarists looking for that "pedal-steely" sound.  From what I understand, they're still being manufactured.  After reading your posts, this is now one my top "wanna have access to the multi tracks" recordings too!

[guitarfool2002]

Unfortunately, the guitars in the final mix are mixed very low, and much of the effect is lost.  This is definitely one of my top "wanna have access to the multitracks" recordings so I could isolate them.  Cohen's playing is very cool and very much in the vein of White.  In earlier takes, he actually is even more busy and plays some very pedal-steely kind of stuff.

I've never heard the earlier takes.  I think this is pretty interesting stuff here.  Is it possible that Cohen may have been playing a B-bender for these sessions?  They're still played, to this day, by guitarists looking for that "pedal-steely" sound.  From what I understand, they're still being manufactured.  After reading your posts, this is now one my top "wanna have access to the multi tracks" recordings too!

B-Benders are still being made, both as custom aftermarket installations the way the originals Parsons-White benders were sold, and also Fender was recently selling a "B-Bender Telecaster" as part of their product line. There are also now "G-Benders" which are just like B-Benders except on the G (Brad Paisley plays one), and all kinds of contraptions like the Hip-Shot and Will Ray's devices for bending strings with your palm rather than the strap button.

Whether Cohen or whoever was using a B-Bender is unknown but I would doubt it, as there were not that many around in those early days (late 1969). Gene Parsons of course had *the one*, Bernie Leadon of the Eagles had one, Albert Lee and maybe a few others had them but at that time they weren't that common. You'd have to ask Cohen if he can be tracked down!

[bossaroo]

wow. Clarence White and Gram Parsons both mentioned on the smiley board... 2 of my favorites!

pretty sure there is no b-bender on 'This Whole World'... I would love to hear the earlier takes though!
Marty Stuart actually owns the original Clarence b-bender and has for many years.

I'm a big Parsons fan, but I've never heard the name John Conrad before?

TWW does have some brilliant guitar work with a busy, almost chicken-picky thing happening at times. similar to 'When A Man Needs A Woman' from Friends. who played guitars on that one?

your theory would assume that Brian had attended a Byrds concert around that time, or possibly heard a live broadcast.
Clarence had a brilliant sound and technique, and he appeared on Byrds recordings from '67 on i believe. I would love to think that he perhaps influenced or inspired Brian on some level.

[guitarfool2002]

I should clarify - I said Parsons owned it but yes it was Clarence White who actually played that first B-Bender equipped Telecaster, now owned by Marty Stuart! Gene Parsons built it and designed it, Clarence White played the heck out of it.

1969, same time frame as This Whole World, the general public who possibly wouldn't be as familiar with Clarence White would have heard him everywhere as he added that intense guitar soloing to Arlo Guthrie's "Comin Into Los Angeles", still one of my all-time favorite solos on B-Bender or guitar in general! Compare that guitar soloing which is out of control good or even Bernie Leadon's laid-back soloing on Peaceful Easy Feeling which are the original B-Benders straight from Parson's house most likely, to This Whole World - I don't hear a B-Bender but again Cohen could confirm it 100% if he's found.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Scott--interesting, I don't think that's the same guy though it is possible.  What I've been able to find out about this Cohen is that he was involved in the Ash Grove "scene", at what is now the LA Improv on Melrose.  He seems to have been primarily a guitarist, which is why I doubt it's the same David Cohen.

Interesting you should mention WAMNAW, that is indeed another session David Cohen played on.  I think he did Raspberries, Strawberries as well.

I too doubt there was B-bender on this, though for a while I considered it a possibility, until Guitarfool here pointed out how this very B-bendery lick could be played simply with a big string bend.  There is still a lick during the "chorus" that both guitarists experiment with throughout the session but only Jerry Cole (who otherwise is the one just playing the power chords) ends up playing on the final take that I can't quite figure out how its being played that also sounds like something you would like to B-bend but I'm sure is played some other way.

Anyway, would be very interesting to track down Cohen or even ask Brian what he had in mind here.

[Mr. Cohen]

Call me crazy, but there's something about "Sweet Caroline" that reminds me of "This Whole World".

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Anyone have a breakdown of who played what on This Whole World?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Sure:

The Basic track:

Jerry Cole and David Cohen, Guitars
John Conrad and Ray Pohlman, Basses
Dennis Dragon on the Tubs
Gene Estes on Chimes

Then a piano, celeste, and some sort of drum were overdubbed.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

LOVE Dennis Dragon's tub action on this track. The little space he leaves in the drum fill he plays when he first comes in is priceless.