20/20 Redux!

[drbeachboy]

Dennis' songs take up 1/4 of 20/20 and 1/6 of Friends. That's a one song difference. 20/20, no vibe? Then why do so many like it? Personally, I think it has a real Beach Boys vibe to it. The one thing that I found is that just about all of the songs fit the composer or singer's personality.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

First, I was agreeing with you, you said it.

Yes, but after reading your response, I felt the need to qualify my remarks. Again, there is nothing wrong with an album that is just a collection of songs, but I wouldn't rate them as high as albums that have cohesive structure. But mostly we're talking about two different entities.

Second, every song doesn't have to be a masterpiece.

Of course not, but the best albums have a generally solid consistency but typically in order for that to happen, the album has to have some sort of cohesion.

Third, All I Want To Do, lackluster? It's the most rocking song on the album.

Lackluster is not the same thing as slow. All I Want To Do is, for me, one of the most boring songs in The Beach Boys catalogue because it is so transparent in what it is trying to achieve and it does it in the most mediocre way imaginable. I think there is a good reason why Dennis typically kept to mellow, ballads, and funkiness -- he couldn't write rock, and this song is probably the best evidence for that. The music is just too by-the-numbers but it may have been helped if Mike Love wasn't singing it (his voice is perfect for some songs -- this ain't it), and if the lyrics weren't as trite. Oooh, a guy wants to have sex - how badass. Maybe if there wasn't a rich history of rock and roll saying the same thing in a much more subtle way for 15 years before this, it may have been interesting.

Fourth, before or after 1967, what is the difference?

Enormous. Again, to use my previous example, if a movie came out today and quite seriously tried to get away with 1950s special effects, it would be laughed out of existence, and quite rightly so. But, of course, that doesn't mean we write off movies from the 50s. Different times demand different a different criteria of evaluation. You can't criticize, say, Marvin Gaye for not making cohesive albums before What's Going On but you can criticize him for not making one after it.

It is what it is. It wasn't released to be a concept album.

Again, I have not ONCE mentioned anything about concept albums whatsoever.

As for cohesive, I've been listening to this for 41 years and it doesn't bother me listening to it from beginning to end. Let It Be? I thought you said everything was cohesive after 1967?

If you thought I said that, then you didn't understand what I wrote.

Oy! The Beatles made a non-cohesive album? They're not perfect after all.

Quite right. Let it Be is nowhere near as strong as anything they made post-Help.
[/quote]

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

How was Brian excluded other than via self exclusion?

He's all over the album if you look closely.

as buddhahat's songlist shows, there were several killer Brian tunes that didn't make the cut.
those should have had priority over anything by Manson, or anything else for that matter...

Yeah, well, Brian could have put anything the hell he wanted on the album and called all the shots if he'd stepped up, right? Since he didn't, can you blame the other Boys for putting their own stuff on it? Good stuff at that!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And at this point (1969) I really don't think if a Beach Boys record didn't have that Brian Wilson signature all over it, is reason enough to slam it. The other Boys were more than capable of Being The Beach Boys as they had been for however many countless live shows and recording sessions. The songs might not have been as perfect as Pet Sounds, but what collection of songs are? That's unfair to both Brian and the Boys to endlessly compare anything they do to either Pet Sounds or Smile. This was a multifaceted band full of very different individuals. I kind of dig the all over the place vibe of 20/20 songwriting-wise. Vocally, it's a goshdarn killer album. As soon as these guys open their mouths and sing, they're The Beach Boys. Brian or no Brian.

Then again, Holland is my favorite album of theirs.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Yeah, well, Brian could have put anything the hell he wanted on the album and called all the shots if he'd stepped up, right? Since he didn't, can you blame the other Boys for putting their own stuff on it?

Eh, well, I don't really think "the other Boys" made the noblest of decisions from 1966 onwards. But selfishly I do love the music.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

can't really disagree with that

[Myk Luhv]

I was reading the vocal credits thread a while ago and it struck me that, in terms of released albums and material, from 1966 onwards (thus excluding the Smile sessions) the vocals on their albums became increasingly more shared between them but also complex too: in terms of trading off individual lines rather than just whole verses, combining two voices for a line and then going to someone else for the next line or half a verse, and so on -- that kind of thing. Maybe I'm just missing something in their earlier stuff or it's simply more subtle -- and I don't mean to suggest, say, that Today! or Pet Sounds (or the sessions for Smile obviously) are not vocally complex -- but that is the impression I had, that they got perhaps even more obviously complex after Pet Sounds. This does seem initially to be counter-intuitive, however, but perhaps that's just because it goes against the grain of the dominant story of the group?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Good point, and a belief I share as well. Obviously though, that ended with 15 BO. Even though I do like the post Holland albums, not even the biggest BB defender could argue against the fact the harmonies really dipped in quality (with the notable exception of the 85 album).

[Myk Luhv]

I wonder what that says when the period of increased harmony complexity begins when Brian steps back from the group and ends when he resumes (more or less) primary control. He obviously was not shy about complicated harmonies -- and he surely did do the vocal arrangements [a lot? some? often?] of the time for this period of comparative less engagement -- but I didn't get that impression with much of their classic period (1964-66). You sort of get a hint of it on, say, "In The Back Of My Mind" I guess but it's still nothing compared to "Wind Chimes" [Smiley Smile] or "'Til I Die". I will defend Love You to death but aside from "Ding Dang", you're correct, it's not nearly as complex. Another example it seems to me of this ridiculous complexity, and one which has been captivating me for the last couple weeks is the thirty-second "Radio King Dom" -- that snippet is a motherfucker! (Related question: Who is doing the high vocal "aaaah" in the background to it? Brian? Carl? Someone else entirely?)

[bossaroo]

did Brian want Cabinessence and Our Prayer put on there? i doubt it.

and i didn't say it sucks because it doesn't have Brian's signature... it sucks because the songs just aren't as good as what Brian was still capable of coming up with.

obviously a lot of fans love the album and it's all personal opinion. in my opinion it's weak overall, incredibly inconsistent, and depressing as hell.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

(Related question: Who is doing the high vocal "aaaah" in the background to it? Brian? Carl? Someone else entirely?)

Brian- it's a less hoarse version of his Love You falsetto.

[Andrew G. Doe]

did Brian want Cabinessence and Our Prayer put on there? i doubt it.

That is one excellent question: we all know he pitched a fit about "Surf's Up" being on, er, Surf's Up, but I've never seen anything about a similar problem with 20/20. Given it was less than two years later, you could argue maybe not, but that would be supposition.

[Ganz Allein]

did Brian want Cabinessence and Our Prayer put on there? i doubt it.

That is one excellent question: we all know he pitched a fit about "Surf's Up" being on, er, Surf's Up, but I've never seen anything about a similar problem with 20/20. Given it was less than two years later, you could argue maybe not, but that would be supposition.

Also, why were those two particular songs chosen to be finished for 20/20? I can understand why they didn't pick "Wonderful," "Wind Chimes," or "H&V" since they'd already been released (although in scaled-down form) on Smiley Smile, but why not finish "Plymouth Rock," "Barnyard," or "I'm in Great Shape" instead? Maybe because those songs aren't as strong or don't stand on their own as well? Heck, they could've even chosen "Cool, Cool Water" or (as mentioned previously) "Can't Wait Too Long" to finish for the album. Who knows.

[Andrew G. Doe]

did Brian want Cabinessence and Our Prayer put on there? i doubt it.

That is one excellent question: we all know he pitched a fit about "Surf's Up" being on, er, Surf's Up, but I've never seen anything about a similar problem with 20/20. Given it was less than two years later, you could argue maybe not, but that would be supposition.

Also, why were those two particular songs chosen to be finished for 20/20? I can understand why they didn't pick "Wonderful," "Wind Chimes," or "H&V" since they'd already been released (although in scaled-down form) on Smiley Smile, but why not finish "Plymouth Rock," "Barnyard," or "I'm in Great Shape" instead? Maybe because those songs aren't as strong or don't stand on their own as well? Heck, they could've even chosen "Cool, Cool Water" or (as mentioned previously) "Can't Wait Too Long" to finish for the album. Who knows.

I'd guess because they were as near as dammit finished: "Prayer" has a couple more layers of vocals and all "Cabin Essence" needed was a lead. Think economy.

[Camus]

I thought Brian did get antsy about Prayer being pulled out of the vaults, worked on and released?

[TdHabib]

From Carlin's terrific tome, p.148
"But Brian had complained bitterly about this violation of the stillborn Smile and then refused to participate in the vocal sessions Carl scheduled to add an extra layer to  'Prayer.' "He was superstitious about those tunes," Desper remembers. "He'd leave the house when the guys were working on them. He didn't want anything to do with them, really."

[Micha]

I'd guess because they were as near as dammit finished: "Prayer" has a couple more layers of vocals and all "Cabin Essence" needed was a lead. Think economy.

Which goes for DYLW too. That lacks like 5 lines of lyrics? The instrumental tracks are all laid down, too. Why didn't they use that? So much for economy.

There has been a lot of talk on this board lately about whether Our Prayer should come first or last on Smile, but no one is arguing that it should come second last because, well, that's kind of ridiculous.

Why is that ridiculous? My old fanboy SMiLE mixes had Prayer second last and Good Vibrations last. Or do you mean arguing about it is ridiculous?

20/20 depresses the hell out of me.

Interesting how different people feel so differently. To me, Friends is depressing. Most songs on it seem unfinished to me and severely underproduced. Compared with 20/20, it sounds like the early version of Do It Again (on Endless Harmony) compared with the single version. 20/20 was a big step forward in terms of production (or backwards, considering the production standards of Pet Sounds). And "Transcendental Meditation" is more annoying to me than "The Nearest Faraway Place".

I recently read that Huddie Ledbetter who wrote "Cottonfields" was actually convicted for murder in 1918. So along with the Manson song 20/20 really is a killer album... 

[adamghost]

I was reading the vocal credits thread a while ago and it struck me that, in terms of released albums and material, from 1966 onwards (thus excluding the Smile sessions) the vocals on their albums became increasingly more shared between them but also complex too: in terms of trading off individual lines rather than just whole verses, combining two voices for a line and then going to someone else for the next line or half a verse, and so on -- that kind of thing. Maybe I'm just missing something in their earlier stuff or it's simply more subtle -- and I don't mean to suggest, say, that Today! or Pet Sounds (or the sessions for Smile obviously) are not vocally complex -- but that is the impression I had, that they got perhaps even more obviously complex after Pet Sounds. This does seem initially to be counter-intuitive, however, but perhaps that's just because it goes against the grain of the dominant story of the group?

This isn't really on point, but it made me think of something.  In 2006, for a show, I had to deconstruct and make individual harmony charts (well, ersatz charts...I can't actually write music) for a bunch of songs, including several Beach Boys songs.  When I was able to tease out the vocals on "Wouldn't It Be Nice", particularly the bridge...I was literally awestruck.  I don't know quite how to explain it to a non-musician, but Brian had managed to create six moving parts that were never parallel octaves (in other words, little or no duplicated notes) that nonetheless made perfect harmonic sense both to the harmony movement and to the underlying chord.

This is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to do.  And you don't pull something like that off unless you are really, really trying to pull something like that off.  When I realized what Brian had done with that vocal arrangement, it practically screamed ambition...someone working their butt off trying to do something special.  It's not like anyone is going to notice what you pulled off technically.  I only noticed because I had the a capella tracks right there and I have good ears and I had written all the parts down.  But with all the notes in front of you you could see clearly what was in Brian's mind when he was writing it.  The guy was trying to climb Everest compositionally.

The very next song I broke down the vocals for was "Do It Again."  Two years later, another Brian arrangement.  And just as clearly as "Wouldn't It Be Nice"'s compositional structure screamed out a young man sweating blood to prove himself, "Do It Again" said: "I'm phoning it in."  Not that there was anything at all wrong with it.  It's a nice song, and a good arrangement.  But harmonically, everything he did in the vocal arrangement was totally by the numbers.  Pretty, competent, but the contrast between what I had just transcribed...a song done just two years earlier...couldn't have been more striking.

Transcribing the vocal arrangements to those two songs back to back told me as much about what happened with Brian, and the group, in the late '60s as anything I'd ever heard or read.

[MBE]

According to Desper when we talked Brian only minded Surf's Up being used. He is on the new parts on Our Prayer which is obvious to me at least.

[buddhahat]

I was reading the vocal credits thread a while ago and it struck me that, in terms of released albums and material, from 1966 onwards (thus excluding the Smile sessions) the vocals on their albums became increasingly more shared between them but also complex too: in terms of trading off individual lines rather than just whole verses, combining two voices for a line and then going to someone else for the next line or half a verse, and so on -- that kind of thing. Maybe I'm just missing something in their earlier stuff or it's simply more subtle -- and I don't mean to suggest, say, that Today! or Pet Sounds (or the sessions for Smile obviously) are not vocally complex -- but that is the impression I had, that they got perhaps even more obviously complex after Pet Sounds. This does seem initially to be counter-intuitive, however, but perhaps that's just because it goes against the grain of the dominant story of the group?

This isn't really on point, but it made me think of something.  In 2006, for a show, I had to deconstruct and make individual harmony charts (well, ersatz charts...I can't actually write music) for a bunch of songs, including several Beach Boys songs.  When I was able to tease out the vocals on "Wouldn't It Be Nice", particularly the bridge...I was literally awestruck.  I don't know quite how to explain it to a non-musician, but Brian had managed to create six moving parts that were never parallel octaves (in other words, little or no duplicated notes) that nonetheless made perfect harmonic sense both to the harmony movement and to the underlying chord.

This is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to do.  And you don't pull something like that off unless you are really, really trying to pull something like that off.  When I realized what Brian had done with that vocal arrangement, it practically screamed ambition...someone working their butt off trying to do something special.  It's not like anyone is going to notice what you pulled off technically.  I only noticed because I had the a capella tracks right there and I have good ears and I had written all the parts down.  But with all the notes in front of you you could see clearly what was in Brian's mind when he was writing it.  The guy was trying to climb Everest compositionally.

The very next song I broke down the vocals for was "Do It Again."  Two years later, another Brian arrangement.  And just as clearly as "Wouldn't It Be Nice"'s compositional structure screamed out a young man sweating blood to prove himself, "Do It Again" said: "I'm phoning it in."  Not that there was anything at all wrong with it.  It's a nice song, and a good arrangement.  But harmonically, everything he did in the vocal arrangement was totally by the numbers.  Pretty, competent, but the contrast between what I had just transcribed...a song done just two years earlier...couldn't have been more striking.

Transcribing the vocal arrangements to those two songs back to back told me as much about what happened with Brian, and the group, in the late '60s as anything I'd ever heard or read.

Fascinating insight - thanks Adam.

[WWDWD?]

I also often disregard 20/20 as just an album of songs slapped together with no context.

But then when I actually listen to the album... it plays like the best beach boys compilation out there. It's almost a summary of their music in the 1960s. You've got the surf music (Do It Again) and the other hits (I Can Hear Music, Bluebirds), which I'd excpect to hear on many 'best ofs'. Then there are all those gems. Tracks that wouldn't been right at home on Friends (I went To Sleep, Time to Get Alone and maybe even Be With Me), one of the beach boys only true rock songs (All I Want To Do) and to finish it off... two amazing SMiLE tracks.

[Roger Ryan]

I'd guess because they were as near as dammit finished: "Prayer" has a couple more layers of vocals and all "Cabin Essence" needed was a lead. Think economy.

Which goes for DYLW too. That lacks like 5 lines of lyrics? The instrumental tracks are all laid down, too. Why didn't they use that? So much for economy.

I assume that the band would have felt that "reusing" the "Heroes & Villains" chorus melody for "Worms" would have been criticized.

[lance]

I imagine the rest of the band maybe didn't know the lyrics/melody and Brian wasn't telling.

[Micha]

I'd guess because they were as near as dammit finished: "Prayer" has a couple more layers of vocals and all "Cabin Essence" needed was a lead. Think economy.

Which goes for DYLW too. That lacks like 5 lines of lyrics? The instrumental tracks are all laid down, too. Why didn't they use that? So much for economy.

I assume that the band would have felt that "reusing" the "Heroes & Villains" chorus melody for "Worms" would have been criticized.

That's a very good point. I'm convinced. 

[JaredLekites]

20/20 was the weakest album they did since All Summer Long.

Funny. I think All Summer Long is one of their stronger albums, at least in terms of the cars, surf and girls era. If you ask me, 20/20 has strong contributions from Brian and the rest of the group in addition to a catchy hit single. I'd say 20/20 is just as good as the Surf's Up album, though it's more of a grower.