20/20 Redux!

[Bill Ed]

@Fishmonk
Some albums are just collections of songs with no other statement other than to just enjoy it for what it is. And what is wrong with All Summer Long? Seriously, are you really a fan of this band?

This may well be the most succinct post I've read on this board. Bravo!

[buddhahat]

Not so much a reshuffle, as a new album borrowing three songs from 20/20!

Y'know, I hadn't actually realised I'd been so harsh on it, but I guess the list speaks for itself!

Maybe the biggest stumbling block for me is the presence of Prayer and Cabinessence. I spend so much time listening to Smile material that they never feel like they belong with 20/20. I have the same problem with GV on Smiley, but as the rest of the identity of that album is so strong, it can happily carry the mismatched production of Good Vibrations.

If it's any consolation I've now added Never Learn Not To Love, so that's four. The other way to look at it is that during 20/20 they were way ahead when it came to creating quality bonus material!

[Andrew G. Doe]

20/20 is where the band shoots off on their own, out of Brian's shadow, but it's loaded down with a bunch of random stuff that makes it sound like it was slapped together at the last minute from whatever was available.

Maybe because, to a degree, it was ?

[The Shift]

For a long time 20/20 was by far my fave album, due in no small part to the presence of Cabinessence – this at a time when I'd not yet learned of Smile so completely objective uninfluenced call!

NLNTL, BWM were big, deep, brooding productions that match TTGA and CabinE in scale an scope, so they all sit well with me, while Prayer, IWTS, ICHM are lighter songs but in a not dissimilar style that provide levity between the deeper stuff.  They all fit together nicely. CTN is a seamless fit there too.

I'd heard Al's Cottonfields before 20/20s, so Brian's version seemed subdued by comparison.

I initially loved TNFAP but soon grew tired of it (just like I stopped taking sugar in coffee), Do It Again and I Can Hear Music were the obvious singles bolted on, while Bluebirds – well, I tried to like it but still can't find it in my heart to put it in my top 150 BBs songs.

AIWTD… so unBBs' like that it took the fade to pull me in (as it were!).

Most of what buddhahat's thrown into his tracklist I love but Old Man River/Old Folks (both versions, but especially so the Old Man River vocal section) are so SMiLE-like their execution (to my mind) that they belong with SMiLE-soundalikes Fall Breaks and Diamond Head, for me. Same with CWTL. Maybe just for me.

[Mike's Beard]

Despite less Brian and an over reliance on covers, I think 20/20 is the best album they'd put out since Pet Sounds.

[The Heartical Don]

For a long time 20/20 was by far my fave album, due in no small part to the presence of Cabinessence – this at a time when I'd not yet learned of Smile so completely objective uninfluenced call!

NLNTL, BWM were big, deep, brooding productions that match TTGA and CabinE in scale an scope, so they all sit well with me, while Prayer, IWTS, ICHM are lighter songs but in a not dissimilar style that provide levity between the deeper stuff.  They all fit together nicely. CTN is a seamless fit there too.

I'd heard Al's Cottonfields before 20/20s, so Brian's version seemed subdued by comparison.

I initially loved TNFAP but soon grew tired of it (just like I stopped taking sugar in coffee), Do It Again and I Can Hear Music were the obvious singles bolted on, while Bluebirds – well, I tried to like it but still can't find it in my heart to put it in my top 150 BBs songs.

AIWTD… so unBBs' like that it took the fade to pull me in (as it were!).

Most of what buddhahat's thrown into his tracklist I love but Old Man River/Old Folks (both versions, but especially so the Old Man River vocal section) are so SMiLE-like their execution (to my mind) that they belong with SMiLE-soundalikes Fall Breaks and Diamond Head, for me. Same with CWTL. Maybe just for me.

I agree on all points.

[bossaroo]

How was Brian excluded other than via self exclusion?

He's all over the album if you look closely.

as buddhahat's songlist shows, there were several killer Brian tunes that didn't make the cut.
those should have had priority over anything by Manson, or anything else for that matter...

[drbeachboy]

So, what is your theory as to why Manson was able to kick Brian off the track listing? I suppose by that thinking Dennis' songs took up space on Friends that Brian should have had?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

20/20 to me, is like The Beach Boys' Magical Mystery Tour. There are lots of great songs but it just doesn't feel like an official album. And, at least, with MMT, all the songs were recorded within the same general time frame.

Part of the problem, of course, is cohesion. There has been a lot of talk on this board lately about whether Our Prayer should come first or last on Smile, but no one is arguing that it should come second last because, well, that's kind of ridiculous.

There's nothing wrong, of course, with an album that's just a collection of good songs, but I have a difficult time thinking of it as a great album if it doesn't have a cohesive structure.

[drbeachboy]

You're correct. There's nothing wrong with an album full of good songs. Nothing is wrong with 20/20. There were tons of albums released in much the same way. Not every album was a concept album.

[Andrew G. Doe]

So, what is your theory as to why Manson was able to kick Brian off the track listing? I suppose by that thinking Dennis' songs took up space on Friends that Brian should have had?

B side of previously released single. 

[Dunderhead]

I just listened to this one all the way through, and it's just not that good. Weaker than Smiley, Wild Honey or Friends. I stand by my assessment.

[smile-holland]

I just listened to this one all the way through, and it's just not that good. Weaker than Smiley, Wild Honey or Friends. I stand by my assessment.

I guess that - if that's your opinion - that's fine.

As for my opinion: Maybe as a unity not the best one in the series of late 60ies output by the Boys. And there was a reason for that (parting with Capitol and all).
But except 1, maybe 2, I love all tracks of this album. Especially the DW contributions. And any album ending with Prayer & Cabinessence would end up high in my top10.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

You're correct. There's nothing wrong with an album full of good songs. Nothing is wrong with 20/20.

Well, that's not true. Bluebirds Over The Mountain, The Nearest Far Away Place, and All I Want to Do are pretty lacklustre. Add to that the fact that Our Prayer and Cabin Essence sound completely out of place and you have a blatantly jarring and patchy album.

There were tons of albums released in much the same way.

Yep, though most of them were before 1967, and that's because the album as a form wasn't widely understood to be a unifying framework.

So, there was nothing wrong with them, but it is difficult to evaluate those albums with the same criteria that you evaluate the later ones. It's like comparing the special effects of movies made today with movies made in the 1950s.

Not every album was a concept album.

There is an enormous difference between an album that is cohesive and a concept album. Pet Sounds is cohesive but there's no overarching concept. Every Beatles album from Rubber Soul onwards is cohesive (save Let it Be) but there's only one concept album amongst them (and even that is really pushing the limits of what we today call a concept album).

[Dunderhead]

Agreed. On top of that I'm also not a big Do It Again fan. It was the first thing the band recorded after their failed Maharishi tour and to me it's really the beginning of the end so to speak. I wonder exactly how this song came about, was it Brian or Mike's idea? The band was at their commercial nadir and I can't help but pinpoint it as one of the first signs of trouble.
I don't know if its because I'm prejudiced against it, but I just have never liked it that much.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Do It Again has its charm, I think - though as 20/20 tracks go, I would put I Can Hear Music, Time To Get Alone, Be With Me, I Went to Sleep, Our Prayer, and Cabin Essence ahead of it. That being said, Brian was still interested in making commercial records (in fact, I'm not sure if there was ever a time where that wasn't a desire on his part) and I can't begrudge him for doing it here.

I'm not quite sure on your point about it being the beginning of the end. It was just obviously 'the single' for the album.

[buddhahat]

Agreed. On top of that I'm also not a big Do It Again fan. It was the first thing the band recorded after their failed Maharishi tour and to me it's really the beginning of the end so to speak. I wonder exactly how this song came about, was it Brian or Mike's idea? The band was at their commercial nadir and I can't help but pinpoint it as one of the first signs of trouble.
I don't know if its because I'm prejudiced against it, but I just have never liked it that much.

I love it, probably due to enjoying it as a kid on the Made In USA comp, but I also think it's just a great song, especially the middle 8. It sounds quintessentially Beach Boys to me, which I guess was one of the ideas behind it. To some ears it may sound like pastiche but I think they nailed it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Agreed. On top of that I'm also not a big Do It Again fan. It was the first thing the band recorded after their failed Maharishi tour and to me it's really the beginning of the end so to speak. I wonder exactly how this song came about, was it Brian or Mike's idea?

One of the first things, along with "Walk on By" and "We're Together Again". As for the origin of "Do it Again", that is so well documented, and has been for decades (hell, even Wikipedia gets it right !), that I'm forced to side with the poster who questioned if you were a fan of the band at all. Serious query: how many BB books have you got or read ?

[Dunderhead]

No I don't really like them that much, The Beau Brummels are much better

[Chocolate Shake Man]

One of the first things, along with "Walk on By" and "We're Together Again". As for the origin of "Do it Again", that is so well documented, and has been for decades (hell, even Wikipedia gets it right !), that I'm forced to side with the poster who questioned if you were a fan of the band at all. Serious query: how many BB books have you got or read ?

Pure charm.

[drbeachboy]

You're correct. There's nothing wrong with an album full of good songs. Nothing is wrong with 20/20.

Well, that's not true. Bluebirds Over The Mountain, The Nearest Far Away Place, and All I Want to Do are pretty lacklustre. Add to that the fact that Our Prayer and Cabin Essence sound completely out of place and you have a blatantly jarring and patchy album.

There were tons of albums released in much the same way.

Yep, though most of them were before 1967, and that's because the album as a form wasn't widely understood to be a unifying framework.

So, there was nothing wrong with them, but it is difficult to evaluate those albums with the same criteria that you evaluate the later ones. It's like comparing the special effects of movies made today with movies made in the 1950s.

Not every album was a concept album.

There is an enormous difference between an album that is cohesive and a concept album. Pet Sounds is cohesive but there's no overarching concept. Every Beatles album from Rubber Soul onwards is cohesive (save Let it Be) but there's only one concept album amongst them (and even that is really pushing the limits of what we today call a concept album).

First, I was agreeing with you, you said it. Second, every song doesn't have to be a masterpiece. I find two of the three songs decent enough to fill the album. Third, All I Want To Do, lackluster? It's the most rocking song on the album. Fourth, before or after 1967, what is the difference? It is what it is. It wasn't released to be a concept album. As for cohesive, I've been listening to this for 41 years and it doesn't bother me listening to it from beginning to end. Let It Be? I thought you said everything was cohesive after 1967? Oy! The Beatles made a non-cohesive album? They're not perfect after all.

[Andrew G. Doe]

One of the first things, along with "Walk on By" and "We're Together Again". As for the origin of "Do it Again", that is so well documented, and has been for decades (hell, even Wikipedia gets it right !), that I'm forced to side with the poster who questioned if you were a fan of the band at all. Serious query: how many BB books have you got or read ?

Pure charm.

Yup, that's me... but I know my Beach Boys 101. 

[drbeachboy]

No I don't really like them that much, The Beau Brummels are much better

See, I knew I had you pegged. Beau Brummels, indeed!

[drbeachboy]

One of the first things, along with "Walk on By" and "We're Together Again". As for the origin of "Do it Again", that is so well documented, and has been for decades (hell, even Wikipedia gets it right !), that I'm forced to side with the poster who questioned if you were a fan of the band at all. Serious query: how many BB books have you got or read ?

Pure charm.

Yup, that's me... but I know my Beach Boys 101. 

As every good Beach Boys fan should.

[bossaroo]

So, what is your theory as to why Manson was able to kick Brian off the track listing? I suppose by that thinking Dennis' songs took up space on Friends that Brian should have had?

my guess is that Dennis was really stepping up around this time (combined with Brian stepping back), and that's why his material (and Manson's) take up so much of that record. Denny's contributions to 'Friends' are some of his best work in my opinion, and fit perfectly with the vibe of that album.

20/20 has no "vibe" really. it's all over the place which is part of the reason it fails. but mainly the songs just ain't up to snuff.