Did the Beatles steal Smile...?

[somebadhat]

Hey,

I'm a newbie so sorry if this is an old subject.

BUT... I remember reading somewhere how Van Dyke Parks was miffed at Lennon and MCCartney dropping in on a Smile recording session when none of the Beach Boys were present. I can't remember where I read his quote he said something along the lines of the pair being unworthy of dropping by and stealing ideas. I know Macca came by to hear the sessions on April 10, 1967, but is there anything to support Van Dyke Parks' assertion that he and Lennon came by before?

Thanks!

[pixletwin]

Did Lennon ever even visit the US in 1967?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

This might be a better fit for the main forum..

[Andrew G. Doe]

Hey,

I'm a newbie so sorry if this is an old subject.

BUT... I remember reading somewhere how Van Dyke Parks was miffed at Lennon and MCCartney dropping in on a Smile recording session when none of the Beach Boys were present. I can't remember where I read his quote he said something along the lines of the pair being unworthy of dropping by and stealing ideas. I know Macca came by to hear the sessions on April 10, 1967, but is there anything to support Van Dyke Parks' assertion that he and Lennon came by before?

Thanks!

We went through this not long after the claim emerged in 2005 or thereabouts: a cursory once-over of the various timelines revealed that no-one was in the right place at the right time for the event as reported to have possibly happened.

[PhilCohen]

There was also the claim that certain Beatles members got people at a tape  storage facility to play unfinished "Smile" session tapes for them in early 1967, and that this made Brian paranoid  enough to move future recording  activity to his home  studio. Brian never publicly accused The Beatles, nor has any Beatle ever commented. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

There was also the claim that certain Beatles members got people at a tape  storage facility to play unfinished "Smile" session tapes for them in early 1967, and that this made Brian paranoid  enough to move future recording  activity to his home  studio. Brian never publicly accused The Beatles, nor has any Beatle ever commented. 

Same story: briefly, it was claimed that staff at Armin Steiner's Sound Recorders played an 8-track Smile tape for unspecified members of The Beatles. Complete nonsense, of course. FWIW, VDP later changed his mind and said that he based his comment on the fact that both album contained "sound effects".

As for neither side commenting on the incident, well, given that it never happened, that's hardly surprising. 

[Bicyclerider]

Was the tape they played labeled "Dumb Angel?"

[Andrew G. Doe]

Was the tape they played labeled "Dumb Angel?"

 

[guitarfool2002]

Two rather threadbare connections to consider, again not suggesting anything specific but worth considering.

1. Derek Taylor - I understand this issue has been discussed but Derek was the direct link between both camps at that time. It was revealed in another thread that perhaps Brian Wilson was more liberal with letting copies of his music into his friends' and associates' hands during Smile, if you believe some of what Jules Seigel has said about getting acetate copies from Brian. Consider Derek Taylor was a very smart and savvy man. The Beatles, specifically Paul, were listening to "Pet Sounds" *heavily* in late 66 - early 67, the report even confirmed by engineer Geoff Emerick who said Paul had the album playing on a turntable at Abbey Road constantly as Pepper was being recorded. Derek Taylor knew what Brian was doing with Smile, would the slight possibility exist that he may have offered a sneak peak of Brian's work to the Beatles at some point?

2. Audio evidence - I can't post it here, and it's a touchy one anyway, but there is an outtake of a Paul McCartney overdub session for Penny Lane that sounds remarkably like some of the Smile outtakes and sonic experiments, including very specific use of echo with a piano, echo/delay feeding back on itself, and just an overall vibe that reminded me of some Smile audio. Coincidence? Perhaps, but it's pretty compelling whatever the circumstances that led to Paul playing around with those kinds of sounds in January 1967.

I'll say there are no actual released Beatles songs that you could point to as a Smile theft. I'll also say Penny Lane, in many musical ways, is as close as Paul got to "Pet Sounds" with the Beatles, and it's pretty neat to pick out the influences in that track, from the multiple pianos, to the walking bassline, to the falsetto vocal behind the horn solo, to the shuffle/swing drum rhythm, and many others.

[D409]

I'll say there are no actual released Beatles songs that you could point to as a Smile theft. I'll also say Penny Lane, in many musical ways, is as close as Paul got to "Pet Sounds" with the Beatles, and it's pretty neat to pick out the influences in that track, from the multiple pianos, to the walking bassline, to the falsetto vocal behind the horn solo, to the shuffle/swing drum rhythm, and many others.

As an observation, has anyone noticed the similarities between the song She's On My Mind from (David Marks' band) The Moon's album Without Earth and Penny Lane ? Very Pepper/Penny Lane-influenced, down to the shuffle rhythm and piccolo trumpet solo, Marks has stated that Sgt Pepper was constantly playing when The Moon made that album.

[Jon Stebbins]

I'll say there are no actual released Beatles songs that you could point to as a Smile theft. I'll also say Penny Lane, in many musical ways, is as close as Paul got to "Pet Sounds" with the Beatles, and it's pretty neat to pick out the influences in that track, from the multiple pianos, to the walking bassline, to the falsetto vocal behind the horn solo, to the shuffle/swing drum rhythm, and many others.

As an observation, has anyone noticed the similarities between the song She's On My Mind from (David Marks' band) The Moon's album Without Earth and Penny Lane ? Very Pepper/Penny Lane-influenced, down to the shuffle rhythm and piccolo trumpet solo, Marks has stated that Sgt Pepper was constantly playing when The Moon made that album.

Maybe The Moon stole the Pepper tapes?

[Ron]

The Beatles were excellent musicians, songwriters, and human beings.  They didn't need to steal SMiLE, they were capable of creating something just as good, or even in fact better on their own.   

[Jonas]

A Beatles fan! GET HIM!!! 

[TdHabib]

The Beatles were excellent musicians, songwriters, and human beings.  They didn't need to steal SMiLE, they were capable of creating something just as good, or even in fact better on their own.   

Right on, Ron

[bgas]

The Beatles were excellent musicians, songwriters, and human beings.  They didn't need to steal SMiLE, they were capable of creating something just as good, or even in fact better on their own.   

Right on, Ron

Except they never created anything better than Smile; tho they tried, using the purloined acetates... 

[18thofMay]

The Beatles were excellent musicians, songwriters, and human beings.  They didn't need to steal SMiLE, they were capable of creating something just as good, or even in fact better on their own.   

Right on, Ron

My Beach Boys story goes like this.....
As a kid massive Beatles fan. Bought all the Albums in a box set listened to them endlessly. Then bought the tapes and then the CD's. Anthology came out bought it on VHS. One day  I happened to see an interview with Sean Lennon and what he said changed my life...Brian Wilson is John,Paul,George, Ringo and Sir George Martin all rolled into one!!

[18thofMay]

And the Beatles did not steal Smile they just borrowed it for a while...

[Smilin Ed H]

Christ, it's getting like the Hoffman board...

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

[The Shift]

The SMiLE tapes borrowed/stolen/lent to the Beatles were lost in the wreckage of the car crash in London that killed Paul McCartney on November 9, 1966*. McCartney had left a recording session following a bad-blood argument over whether the Beatles should copy ideas he had played to them from the SMiLE tapes. Distracted by infuriation, he failed to negotiate a bend and totalled his car.

The tapes are believed to have been retrieved from the wreckage of his car by a road traffic investigation officer and never returned. It is thought that, to this day, they're locked in an evidence storeroom in a police station in the City of Westminster**.




* Not, for some reason, mentioned on AGD's site.
** For Alan and Mark's benefit, this lead ain't worth following up.
***

[MBE]

Frankly I think they were a hell of a lot more worried how to top Pet Sounds then Smile. Remember Smile took time before it really achieved cult status, but Pet Sounds was a must have in the UK upon release.

[Dead Parrot]

In many respects SMiLE and Sgt Pepper are total opposites, at least for me they are. SMiLE at its heart is a uniquely American experience, while Sgt Pepper is a uniquely British experience.
To put it another way, Brian and Van Dyke could never have written a song like "A Day In The Life", while John and Paul could never have written a sing like "Surf's Up". They're both wonderful songs though.

[The Shift]

In many respects SMiLE and Sgt Pepper are total opposites, at least for me they are. SMiLE at its heart is a uniquely American experience, while Sgt Pepper is a uniquely British experience.

Spot on. SMiLE is rather esoteric and impenetrable in places; Pepper is utter British and many songs paints a straightforward story, albeit often with a subtext. She's Leaving Home (for eg) is a tremendous piece of story telling that achieves most of its narrative by implication. "Meeting a man from the motor trade" implies so much more than a mere love affair, for eg. Bit like they did with Eleanor Rigby on Revolver. The nearest the Beach Boys – well, Brian and Van Dyke – come to that is Wonderful, but they do it in a completely different way, and leave many more dangling threads. The beauty's there, but culturally they're worlds apart.

And in Surf's Up and Day In The Life, you've picked what are to me the pinnacles of each band's creative output. Contradictorily though, both bands relaxed somewhat after those songs, and their output became more enjoyable for being so much looser. Does that sound odd? Well, I'd appreciate an Ego Ronay-rated posh meal, but I'd get more satisfaction from a bacon roll and a mug of instant coffee.

[Ron]

This whole argument is so ignorant, it's like asking if Donald Trump stole the tip jar.  When you're capable of writing "A Day In the Life" or "She's Leaving Home" like mentioned above, you're operating at the absolute highest level as a songwriter, clearly every bit as talented as Brian himself was. 

You don't have to stack everything in a list and give it a number, it's quite alright to like Brian, AND John... AND Paul.  John, Paul, and Brian all liked each other, btw.  It's also alright to enjoy Tears for Fears or whatever pet sounds you have yourself. 

You know what I did?   Sneaky me.  I bought the Beatles, AND the Beach Boys albums.  Shhhhh, dont' tell anybody.  You can do that too, you know.  Tee Heee Heee.  I got a whole f&ckin room full of music, by all kinds of people.  Gasp!  I don't even have them in order!!!! Sometimes, I listen to the radio, and they play different songs!  It's CRAZY!  They don't even do a countdown to tell me which one is the best song!  I'M LIVIN ON THE EDGE!!!!

[bgas]

This whole argument is so ignorant, it's like asking if Donald Trump stole the tip jar.  When you're capable of writing "A Day In the Life" or "She's Leaving Home" like mentioned above, you're operating at the absolute highest level as a songwriter, clearly every bit as talented as Brian himself was. 

You don't have to stack everything in a list and give it a number, it's quite alright to like Brian, AND John... AND Paul.  John, Paul, and Brian all liked each other, btw.  It's also alright to enjoy Tears for Fears or whatever pet sounds you have yourself. 

You know what I did?   Sneaky me.  I bought the Beatles, AND the Beach Boys albums.  Shhhhh, dont' tell anybody.  You can do that too, you know.  Tee Heee Heee.  I got a whole f&ckin room full of music, by all kinds of people.  Gasp!  I don't even have them in order!!!! Sometimes, I listen to the radio, and they play different songs!  It's CRAZY!  They don't even do a countdown to tell me which one is the best song!  I'M LIVIN ON THE EDGE!!!!

WHoa dude!  Sounds like you're almost to the schozophrenic line with all those different sounds coming your way! 
Might want to lay low and just listen to Sumahama on repeat for awhile....