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Author Topic: Add vocals only where lyrics are of 1960's vintage  (Read 21900 times)
Roger Ryan
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« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2011, 12:01:04 PM »

Might I propose a reasonable compromise over the issue of whether or not to overdub missing vocals onto the 2011 release of "The Beach Boys-Smile". I say vocals should be added(for passages/song which are incomplete and don't have vocals) only where the lyrics to be sung were written by Van Dyke Parks in the 1960's. In other words, "Holidays" stays instrumental, but DO add the missing vocal passages to "Roll Plymouth Rock"(AKA "Do You Like Worms?)

Reasonable ? Men who are either 70 or 69 adding their vocals to tracks (and possibly bvs) recorded 44 years ago ?  Remember how jarring it was in the 2000 miniseries when Brian added his current voice for a brief scene ?  Crazy idea.

Andrew, what are you referring to in the 2000 miniseries (confess don't know what that is)

Brian looped in some singing on "In My Room" during the scene where "young Brian" is performing at a piano in his parent's house; no surprise that it sounded like 58-year-old Brian and not 21-year-old Brian.
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« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2011, 12:13:44 PM »

The ONLY non-SMiLE-era thing i would like to have added would be a 1971 vocals-only 'Surf's Up'. Those additonal vocals are amazing - some of you will know what I mean  Wink
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Dan Lega
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« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2011, 05:52:13 PM »




(I posted this in another thread first, not realizing there was a specific thread for this topic.)


I'll know I’ll most likely be pilloried here, but I just want to put it out there that I, like a few others apparently, think they should use the post '67 Cabinessence and Surf's Up vocals for the Side One "near-to-finished” version of the album.  I want all the first time listeners to hear the magnificence of the finished tracks.  I don't want them to sit there and go, "Hmmm, I wonder what that would have sounded like with lyrics?"  Then the '66-'67 unfinished vocal version or instrumental track can be used on one of the other discs.  As for those who say, "But hey, it's called SMiLE Sessions, therefore you can't use anything past those dates," all I can say is, that is what *asterisks* are for!  Just place a little asterisk next to the song title to indicate that parts of the recording are post SMiLE Sessions era. 

My take is that anything which was WRITTEN or PLANNED, not just anything that was recorded, is historically accurate and indispensible.  Me?  I personally would love to have “reconnected telephone line” recorded anew – if it’s not found on a tape or acetate.  And even if this vocal is found – but only in bad sound quality – then I’d still love to hear it newly recorded on the existing backing track.  Seriously, I would.  Now I don’t expect to change any of your well positioned thoughts on the subject, but I have to be honest and say what I would want.  Now granted, if they record any new vocals my hope is that they let Al Jardine sing the lead, and that Mike, Bruce, and Brian are relegated to backing vocals, and that they do their absolute best to make it fit sonically with the rest of the vintage recordings.  Any new recordings should feature only the original members, meaning I would rather not have Darian, Jeff, Christian, or Al’s kids singing on it.  Also, I would rather not have a modern Brian lead vocal.  Only Al’s voice is still in top shape.  That being said, though, I would rather hear “reconnected telephone line” sung by ANYBODY than not to hear it at all.  (Though if it’s just sung by anybody, then it should be relegated to disc 2, or 3 or 4.)  Similarly, I would love to hear a modern Al Jardine lead vocal on “Do You Like Worms” if a vintage vocal can’t be found.  Heck, I wouldn’t mind hearing that on Disc 1 if it was done with enough integrity to the original recordings.  And if more lyrics from that period appear (either from Frank Holmes lyric sheets or elsewhere) I would love to hear them newly recorded, too.  I mean, if they’re not recorded for this project, when will they be?

The one thing I would not advocate for are newly recorded vocals of Van Dyke’s 2004 lyrics.  They are excellent for that project, but I don’t see any need for them on this set.  (Though, once again, if they were done tastefully, with an Al lead etc., etc., I don’t think you’d hear me complain too much -- though I would hope that the tracks would appear as extras, rather than on Disc 1.)

Again, I realize some of you will be dying to roast me over the pits of hell because of these sentiments, but I love what Brian and Van Dyke accomplished with their ’66-’67 SMiLE project, and I want to hear as much of it as I can.  If that means doing some modern recording for things that have been lost, or are in really bad sound condition, then so be it.  Give it all to me!  Don’t leave me wondering!

(And please be assured that I realize there is very little chance of the surviving Beach Boys doing any new recordings for this project.  So those of you wholly against my opinion most likely have nothing to worry about!  Please set your torches accordingly.  I, also, realize that any attempt at new recordings risks pushing the release date further and further away – so far away that it may never come out, especially with Al’s slow pace of recording!  That alone is reason enough for me to be on your side!) 

Love and merci,    Dan Lega

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« Reply #28 on: March 16, 2011, 07:05:05 PM »




(I posted this in another thread first, not realizing there was a specific thread for this topic.)


I'll know I’ll most likely be pilloried here, but I just want to put it out there that I, like a few others apparently, think they should use the post '67 Cabinessence and Surf's Up vocals for the Side One "near-to-finished” version of the album.  I want all the first time listeners to hear the magnificence of the finished tracks.  I don't want them to sit there and go, "Hmmm, I wonder what that would have sounded like with lyrics?"  Then the '66-'67 unfinished vocal version or instrumental track can be used on one of the other discs.  As for those who say, "But hey, it's called SMiLE Sessions, therefore you can't use anything past those dates," all I can say is, that is what *asterisks* are for!  Just place a little asterisk next to the song title to indicate that parts of the recording are post SMiLE Sessions era. 

My take is that anything which was WRITTEN or PLANNED, not just anything that was recorded, is historically accurate and indispensible.  Me?  I personally would love to have “reconnected telephone line” recorded anew – if it’s not found on a tape or acetate.  And even if this vocal is found – but only in bad sound quality – then I’d still love to hear it newly recorded on the existing backing track.  Seriously, I would.  Now I don’t expect to change any of your well positioned thoughts on the subject, but I have to be honest and say what I would want.  Now granted, if they record any new vocals my hope is that they let Al Jardine sing the lead, and that Mike, Bruce, and Brian are relegated to backing vocals, and that they do their absolute best to make it fit sonically with the rest of the vintage recordings.  Any new recordings should feature only the original members, meaning I would rather not have Darian, Jeff, Christian, or Al’s kids singing on it.  Also, I would rather not have a modern Brian lead vocalOnly Al’s voice is still in top shape.  That being said, though, I would rather hear “reconnected telephone line” sung by ANYBODY than not to hear it at all.  (Though if it’s just sung by anybody, then it should be relegated to disc 2, or 3 or 4.)  Similarly, I would love to hear a modern Al Jardine lead vocal on “Do You Like Worms” if a vintage vocal can’t be found.  Heck, I wouldn’t mind hearing that on Disc 1 if it was done with enough integrity to the original recordings.  And if more lyrics from that period appear (either from Frank Holmes lyric sheets or elsewhere) I would love to hear them newly recorded, too.  I mean, if they’re not recorded for this project, when will they be?

The one thing I would not advocate for are newly recorded vocals of Van Dyke’s 2004 lyrics.  They are excellent for that project, but I don’t see any need for them on this set.  (Though, once again, if they were done tastefully, with an Al lead etc., etc., I don’t think you’d hear me complain too much -- though I would hope that the tracks would appear as extras, rather than on Disc 1.)

Again, I realize some of you will be dying to roast me over the pits of hell because of these sentiments, but I love what Brian and Van Dyke accomplished with their ’66-’67 SMiLE project, and I want to hear as much of it as I can.  If that means doing some modern recording for things that have been lost, or are in really bad sound condition, then so be it.  Give it all to me!  Don’t leave me wondering!

(And please be assured that I realize there is very little chance of the surviving Beach Boys doing any new recordings for this project.  So those of you wholly against my opinion most likely have nothing to worry about!  Please set your torches accordingly.  I, also, realize that any attempt at new recordings risks pushing the release date further and further away – so far away that it may never come out, especially with Al’s slow pace of recording!  That alone is reason enough for me to be on your side!) 

Love and merci,    Dan Lega



I would certainly not want Brian's voice of today over the old material, though I suppose it would be appropriate to use him if they wanted to record vocals for The Old Master Painter.

From what little I heard of Al's new album, it sounds like his voice is indeed in very good shape, but it still begs the question as to whether anyone could get the emotion and the precision from him that Brian achieved (as a producer) 40+ years ago.
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« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2011, 02:18:15 AM »

Might I propose a reasonable compromise over the issue of whether or not to overdub missing vocals onto the 2011 release of "The Beach Boys-Smile". I say vocals should be added(for passages/song which are incomplete and don't have vocals) only where the lyrics to be sung were written by Van Dyke Parks in the 1960's. In other words, "Holidays" stays instrumental, but DO add the missing vocal passages to "Roll Plymouth Rock"(AKA "Do You Like Worms?)

I could imagine that we (or, for that matter, art scholars) would gladly accept a painting by Rembrandt as a genuine work, even if the man had started it, almost finished it, then had abandoned it for 15 years for whatever reasons, and finally finished it altogether.

But I can't really accept the 1967 Smile material given its final brushwork in 2011 A.D. I think it is for two main reasons:

1. The final touches would have to be done by a Brian who can't sing like he used to, accompanied by session musicians entirely different from those in 1967; so that would result in some kind of weird conglomerate from two completely different eras;
2...and, most important: Smile was to be a release by the Beach Boys (the group). No one in the whole world could tell what Carl or Dennis would've made of the new additions, much less whether they even would have accepted to perform the new parts. So: adding new material would be an insult to the memory of these guys, and perhaps border on what's known as art fraud.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #30 on: March 17, 2011, 03:06:24 AM »

I've considered this, and have, at length, distilled my opinion down to this concise response.

No.
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« Reply #31 on: March 17, 2011, 03:32:28 AM »

I've considered this, and have, at length, distilled my opinion down to this concise response.

No.

Less is more, I guess...  Thumbs Up
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« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2011, 03:33:15 AM »

You know what, I'm game for new vocals if they be done well, and if the box were to contain the same tracks sans vocals so we could swap them out if need be: Nothing to lose.

It would certainly be a bold move on the Boys' part and entirely within the spirit of Smile and who knows, could yield some fun results. It could even prove enlightening if 'lost' lyrics such as telephone line were recorded anew as Dan Lega suggests, and quite legitimate historically in that the lyrics are vintage.

In truth, I doubt it'll happen. Al's comments "I don't have many details on it, although we didn't do any new recording" are telling. I suspect the idea was floated, and that's why Mark's press release mentions that new vocals could be added. I think Mark's comments predate Al's initial statement and by that time they'd nixed the idea.
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« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2011, 06:02:27 AM »

You know what, I'm game for new vocals if they be done well...

You killed the idea right there.  Grin
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« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2011, 06:31:35 AM »

You know what, I'm game for new vocals if they be done well...

You killed the idea right there.  Grin

Ha ha! Well I'm not well versed in their voices these days. If it'll be anything like the difference bwteen Jagger c. 71 and his recent updates to the Exile songs then count me out. From what I glean Al's vocals are not too far gone.
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« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2011, 07:24:23 AM »

So: adding new material would be an insult to the memory of these guys, and perhaps border on what's known as art fraud.


Wow...    

Hey, I stated my opinion, expected to get flamed for it, and I don't plan on getting into a big discussion about it.  However, I totally fail to see how adding vintage lyrics to an old recording, as long as the original melody is found/remembered, is insulting to Dennis and Carl.  I also don't see how it could be considered art fraud if it's clearly stated when, why, and how the recording is done.  But to each his own.

Love and merci,   Dan Lega


PS -- AGD, old buddie, I know you've been arguing for the exact opposite opinion, so I thank you for your restraint and your succinct reply!   Cheesy
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« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2011, 07:37:03 AM »

So: adding new material would be an insult to the memory of these guys, and perhaps border on what's known as art fraud.


Wow...    

Hey, I stated my opinion, expected to get flamed for it, and I don't plan on getting into a big discussion about it.  However, I totally fail to see how adding vintage lyrics to an old recording, as long as the original melody is found/remembered, is insulting to Dennis and Carl.  I also don't see how it could be considered art fraud if it's clearly stated when, why, and how the recording is done.  But to each his own.

Love and merci,   Dan Lega


PS -- AGD, old buddie, I know you've been arguing for the exact opposite opinion, so I thank you for your restraint and your succinct reply!   Cheesy

Oh Dan, don't worry man. I don't like intense fighting either. Let me try to explain: suppose new material (vocs, instrumental, perhaps a different mix) will be added to old stuff. For me the argument is purely theoretical: even if the chance is slim, it might be that the brothers who passed away wouldn't be all that delighted with the end result. So, they might have asked for revisions in the 'new' edition, or else be profoundly unhappy to have it released under the group name, which of course includes them in the 'true' line-up.
That, of course, leaves open the chance that they could love the new end result.
That is what I was pondering. No offense meant at all.
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« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2011, 10:34:25 AM »

Here's a legit question:

If it's cool to use vocals recorded two years after the 'smile' era, why not just have the band record all the vocals?  What's the difference?  Have Brian, Mike, Al, Bruce record all the missing parts. 

Answer: There is no difference.  Either leave it alone, or you can add whatever the f*** they feel like to it.  The only way to do it is to only use the stuff recorded '66, '67.
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« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2011, 11:45:17 AM »

Here's a legit question:

If it's cool to use vocals recorded two years after the 'smile' era, why not just have the band record all the vocals?  What's the difference?  Have Brian, Mike, Al, Bruce record all the missing parts.  

Answer: There is no difference.  Either leave it alone, or you can add whatever the foder they feel like to it.  The only way to do it is to only use the stuff recorded '66, '67.

Carl in 1968 didn't sound very different - if at all - from Carl in 1966: not thrilled with it but it's the least-bad option. OTH, Brian & Mike (or Bruce) vintage 2011... simply, doesn't bear thinking about, does it.

Not unlike when Abel Gance 'reworked' (I use the term as loosely as possible) his original 1927 version of Napoleon in the 60s/70s and insisted on once more playing St. Juste, albeit in silhouette. It was calamitous.
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« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2011, 11:47:50 AM »

[brain fart]
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« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2011, 11:59:30 AM »

It was calamitous.

Calamitous would be an understatement if any attempts are made to add any modern vocals or parts in general to the Smile tapes. I don't want that at all! I'm repeating myself but if that is being considered I'd suggest they build a fake board (or fake Mac with ProTools in this case) like they did for Murry so nothing new actually gets recorded.
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« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2011, 01:13:00 PM »

I agree.  I'm just saying there's no valid argument for using the stuff that was recorded later, and not using new vocals. 
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« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2011, 01:21:47 PM »

Well there is. It is more valid to use a vocal that is within two years of the sessions than vocals recorded by 69 & 70 year old men, some 45 years later. You know and I know that their voices today in no way match their voices from that time period. As Andrew mentioned above, Carl's voice was pretty much the same between 66 and 68. Using Carl's vocal is for continuity and completeness of performance.
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But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
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« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2011, 01:40:36 PM »

Well there is. It is more valid to use a vocal that is within two years of the sessions than vocals recorded by 69 & 70 year old men, some 45 years later. You know and I know that their voices today in no way match their voices from that time period. As Andrew mentioned above, Carl's voice was pretty much the same between 66 and 68. Using Carl's vocal is for continuity and completeness of performance.

Really it's simple then. 
Instead of using some new vocals and some original ones and trying to make them match, Brian, Al, Mike, Bruce, and what the heck.. Dave, record all new vocal passages matching the old ones as closely as they can. 
That way they'll all match, even if they don't quite hit the notes they once did...   Grin
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« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2011, 01:47:13 PM »

Well there is. It is more valid to use a vocal that is within two years of the sessions than vocals recorded by 69 & 70 year old men, some 45 years later. You know and I know that their voices today in no way match their voices from that time period. As Andrew mentioned above, Carl's voice was pretty much the same between 66 and 68. Using Carl's vocal is for continuity and completeness of performance.
Really it's simple then.  
Instead of using some new vocals and some original ones and trying to make them match, Brian, Al, Mike, Bruce, and what the heck.. Dave, record all new vocal passages matching the old ones as closely as they can.  
That way they'll all match, even if they don't quite hit the notes they once did...   Grin
I am talking about Carl's lead vocal. So by your thinking we go get Mike in the studio this Spring to sing the lead for Cabin Essence. How grand a plan that is! bgas, volunteer as Super Executive Producer. Wink
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And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
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« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2011, 02:02:10 PM »

Well there is. It is more valid to use a vocal that is within two years of the sessions than vocals recorded by 69 & 70 year old men, some 45 years later. You know and I know that their voices today in no way match their voices from that time period. As Andrew mentioned above, Carl's voice was pretty much the same between 66 and 68. Using Carl's vocal is for continuity and completeness of performance.
Really it's simple then.  
Instead of using some new vocals and some original ones and trying to make them match, Brian, Al, Mike, Bruce, and what the heck.. Dave, record all new vocal passages matching the old ones as closely as they can.  
That way they'll all match, even if they don't quite hit the notes they once did...   Grin
I am talking about Carl's lead vocal. So by your thinking we go get Mike in the studio this Spring to sing the lead for Cabin Essence. How grand a plan that is! bgas, volunteer as Super Executive Producer. Wink

If no-one  objects, I volunteer as Super Executive Producer, for The Capitol Records, Smile Sessions release.
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« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2011, 02:17:00 PM »

Well there is. It is more valid to use a vocal that is within two years of the sessions than vocals recorded by 69 & 70 year old men, some 45 years later. You know and I know that their voices today in no way match their voices from that time period. As Andrew mentioned above, Carl's voice was pretty much the same between 66 and 68. Using Carl's vocal is for continuity and completeness of performance.

Carl was two years older in 68, there's no difference in that and 45 years older. 

Dr. Beach Boy, you know you're debating something subjective, the only objective way to look at it is to say the album was abandoned in early '67, anything after that isn't on it.  If you want to get subjective, though, then we can say just as easily that new vocals would fit.  Same band, just later.  You want to draw the line at two years, why not draw the line at 45 years? 
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« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2011, 02:45:09 PM »

Well there is. It is more valid to use a vocal that is within two years of the sessions than vocals recorded by 69 & 70 year old men, some 45 years later. You know and I know that their voices today in no way match their voices from that time period. As Andrew mentioned above, Carl's voice was pretty much the same between 66 and 68. Using Carl's vocal is for continuity and completeness of performance.

Carl was two years older in 68, there's no difference in that and 45 years older.  

So... by this truly inane and ridiculous reasoning, there's no difference between Brian's current voice and his 1968 voice. Ladies and gentlemen, I proudly give you - the world's first deaf Beach Boys fan.  Grin
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« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2011, 02:56:24 PM »

Well there is. It is more valid to use a vocal that is within two years of the sessions than vocals recorded by 69 & 70 year old men, some 45 years later. You know and I know that their voices today in no way match their voices from that time period. As Andrew mentioned above, Carl's voice was pretty much the same between 66 and 68. Using Carl's vocal is for continuity and completeness of performance.

Carl was two years older in 68, there's no difference in that and 45 years older.  

So... by this truly inane and ridiculous reasoning, there's no difference between Brian's current voice and his 1968 voice. Ladies and gentlemen, I proudly give you - the world's first deaf Beach Boys fan.  Grin

Actually, from reading the positive reviews on this site of MIU, Still Cruisin, etc., it seems there are a number of deaf Beach Boys fans...
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« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2011, 03:26:39 PM »

My thoughts are no more subjective than yours Ron, or anyone else here, I'm afraid. But if you think the Beach Boys of 2011 can pull off a vocal of their 1966 selves, than you must be smoking a bit of that Cabin Essence being passed around this forum.  Smokin  Wink
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Thou Art In Hawthorne,
Harmonied Be Thy name
Your Kingdom Come,
Your Steak Well Done,
On Stage As It Is In Studio,
Give Us This Day, Our Shortenin' Bread
And Forgive Us Our Bootlegs,
As We Also Have Forgiven Our Wife And Managers,
And Lead Us Not Into Kokomo,
But Deliver Us From Mike Love.
Amen.  ---hypehat
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