SMiLE Sessions box set!

[buddhahat]

The abstract, experimental stuff just doesn't work. Its not what Brian Wilson does. He is master of the beautiful, haunting melody and the beguiling chord change. With Fire and such like he was out of his depth.

I don't agree - I think Brian was all about the abstract on many occasions. It just took for a more sophisticated audience to bring it out of him. The Fire motif , and similarly discordant songs, resurface a few times at later times: Fall Breaks, Transcendental Meditation, My Solution. Then we have more experimental stuff like the Fairy tale Msuic. Abstract is not a hat he was trying on - it's one facet of his work. During Smile he was pushing the boundaries of his music as art. I think the flaw that shoots through it is the inability to pull it all together and focus it into a whole, which Paul McCartney did so effectively with Sgt Pepper. I think Smile really needed an organiser - a secretary. Brian was just not disciplined enough in the end imo.

The beautiful haunting melodies and beguiling chord changes you describe are there in spades: The hawaiian chant in Worms, the verse melody of Child, the Cantina section, the whole of wonderful and Surf's Up, the doings in Cabinessence, the minor key shift of OMP, the sun dappled jauntiness of Barnyard - it goes on and on and far outweighs Pet Sounds for beautiful moments imo. What is so exciting about Smile is, as Anderle said, the fact Brian has taken the form of his work and chopped it up into the abstract - like cubism. He just blew it apart but couldn't focus enough to tie it all together into a coherent whole.

[18thofMay]

I think that creatively Brian has been kind of pigeon holed into a stereo type of avant garde off the cuff kind of creative music. He just wants to make a rock n roll record.. Sometimes I think this.. Brian may write a song and others around him will say lets put two french horns in and  a bass harmonica just like 66. But is that what Brian wants?
SMiLE make no mistake about it was the creative peak of Team/Corporation Brian! And just like human nature the only one person to destroy it was the  man creating it!
Oh and I spoke to Van Dyke the other day whilst he was in Nsw Australia.

[seanmurd]

The SMiLE vs. Pepper argument is a non-starter, for one glaring reason -- Pepper was actually finished and released, and SMiLE wasn't. So Pepper wins, if only by default. Yes, it may be true that Pepper (like SMiLE) only had an "EP's worth" of mind-blowing classics, complemented by stylish and classy filler, but where Paul (and John and George Martin) succeeded was in NOT being swallowed up by the "concept" of their album, while Brian did. Sgt. Pepper was originally (rumored to be) a song cycle about childhood and Liverpool -- an idea that was gutted when the two best tracks ("Penny Lane" b/w "Strawberry Fields") were released as a non-LP single. Then Paul had the idea about the fictional Sgt. Pepper and his band, and even went so far as to invent a "guest star" (Billy Shears) and write a song for him. At this point, the album was going to be a "concert" by Pepper, Billy and the band -- and if Paul had gone mad trying to make it work, and the LP never came out, and all we had were stories and hearsay about how amazing this faux concert album was going to be, we'd be debating all the same issues we debate with SMiLE: track order, link tracks, sound effects, suites, segues (or "segue ways" if you're a Billboard proofreader), etc.

But Paul (or more likely, John) quickly realized how much WORK the "Pepper" concept would entail, and the Beatles almost immediately scaled it back -- you had the Pepper intro, Billy's song, audience laughter at the end of "Within You" and the "Pepper" reprise before "A Day In The Life." They didn't even TRY to shoehorn the rest of the tracks into the original concept; they just sequenced a great album of individual songs. As it turned out, the cleverness of what they DID do was enough to wow the critics and the fans, and people called it a "concept album" anyway -- a myth that persists to this day. As John once said about the "Pepper" conceit, "It worked because WE SAID it worked" -- meaning it didn't hold up to careful scrutiny, but as long as it was executed with skill and bravura, people bought into it.

As many others have said, Brian needed an "Executive Producer" on SMiLE, someone to get him to focus on the big picture and not get lost in the details. Had he realized in, say January 1967, that he didn't have the time, the technology or the organizational skills to make SMiLE match what he heard in his head, he still could have chosen the best dozen songs and put out a killer album. It wouldn't have mattered if he never completed the "Americana" suite or the "Elements" movement -- the HINTS of them would have survived, and people would still have been impressed, if not blown away. I totally disagree with the notion that there were only a handful of good tracks, and the rest were all "silly" or incomplete. "Holidays" would have worked as a standalone instrumental, just as "Pet Sounds" (the song) had. Had he not gotten sidetracked/obsessed with "Heroes And Villains" he could have completed fragmentary gems like "Child Is Father" and polished a few others and released a classic LP. Maybe it would have rocked the world, or maybe it still would have been overshadowed by Sgt. Pepper -- but it's time would have come eventually, much like the Kinks' Village Green.

The best example I can think of where an artist scrapped elaborate plans for a concept album and STILL emerged with a classic, is Randy Newman's Good Old Boys. (Who's Next is another one, obviously.) Newman mapped out and even demo'd the tracks for "Billy Cutler's Birthday," the story of a southern misanthrope reflecting on his life and the South on his birthday. Randy quickly realized he was over-reaching, and pared it down to the best core songs, and recorded them as-is -- leaving characters and dangling plot lines in place. The resulting album (Good Old Boys) was brilliant, and arguably the best thing Randy's ever done -- strengthened perhaps by all the extra detail that came from the original concept that went unexplained in the released album. It gave the album a sense of "place" and mystery and created an atmosphere that drew the listener in. I wish Brian could have realized that he didn't HAVE to fully realize his vision to "complete" SMiLE -- all he had to do was complete 12 tracks and let the released album create it's own mythology.

Whatever we get in September might be great, might be a lot of fun to listen to, but it will be as accurate a representation of the 1967 SMiLE as a modern-day painting of the Mona Lisa based on a few sketches and contemporary descriptions of the painting in progress. Imagine if all we had from Sgt. Pepper was "Penny Lane," "Strawberry Fields," "Sgt. Pepper" (intro and reprise), "A Little Help," and "A Day In The Life" -- and backing tracks for another half-dozen songs. Perhaps "Lucy In The Sky" was finished for the Magical Mystery Tour project, and maybe "Within You Without You" ended up on the Wonderwall soundtrack. Perhaps Paul adds some overdubs and sticks "Getting Better" on the White Album, and John (at a loss for songs) submits "Good Morning, Good Morning" as the opening track of Abbey Road. (In this scenario, of course, Yoko jumps out of her bed in the studio and says she "hears" animals stampeding at the end of the song. John loves it, George Martin rolls his eyes, and we have a classic "tag" to the song.) But I digress...

Imagine the wild "Pepper" comps we'd all be dreaming up 30 years later -- and they'd all be wildly off the mark, of course. And to make matters MORE complicated, imagine that Paul resurrects the project in 2003 and releases "Paul McCartney Presents Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band"! Oh my God!! "A Day In The Life" is in the middle now! "Mr. Kite" is a pirate!! All we've known for 35 years has been wrong!!! (Cue gargling, strangling sounds as "Pepper Nerds" choke on their cherished theories.) I don't envy the task that Mark Linett and Alan Boyd have accepted, and I dread the backlash that awaits them courtesy of the more self-righteous and less generous fans after the set is released. (Hell, people have already suggested running Linett out of town over 0.5 seconds of "Cabinessence" on a giveaway 45!)

I look forward to The Smile Sessions.

I look forward to Phil Cohen admitting he was wrong.

I look forward to AGD saying he knew everything all along.  

But mostly, I look forward to the WAIT being OVER.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Yes, that's about it, plus Da Da and Our Prayer of course. Its a great shame 'Child...' never acquired full song status - if it had a proper worked up set of vocals it could have been another Surf's Up.

Do You Like Worms is not up to much, I think. The intro to Look is lovely, but the rest of is it is silly, as is Holidays and Master Painter. He Gives Speeches is fun,  but fails to get past the demo stage, and Wind Chimes is almost very good but the arrangement is unfinished. Perversely, I quite like You're Welcome, and the Smiley version of Vegetables is pretty good for similar reasons. That's it really. The abstract, experimental stuff just doesn't work. Its not what Brian Wilson does. He is master of the beautiful, haunting melody and the beguiling chord change. With Fire and such like he was out of his depth.

So, basically... "don't foder with the formula" ? 

You know, those very words did run through my head as I was typing the above  , but yes (or no...).

There were some things the BBs did better than anyone anywhere ever, and some things they didn't. Perhaps if Lou Reed had recorded MO'LC it might have worked, but the Boys? No.

I would take Brian Wilson's brand of experimentalism over Lou Reed's any day. And I'm a Lou Reed fan.

[Jason]

The abstract, experimental stuff just doesn't work. Its not what Brian Wilson does. He is master of the beautiful, haunting melody and the beguiling chord change. With Fire and such like he was out of his depth.

"The abstract, experimental stuff just doesn't work."

Jesus c*ck gobbling Christ on a pogo stick.

I don't think I've ever read a more ridiculous statement on this forum and everyone knows that the Beach Boys' fan base is a collective cesspool for ridiculousness at times.

For one, if you think Smile is the only "abstract, experimental stuff" Brian ever worked on, you have a very tunneled view of the Beach Boys' music. I would argue that the "abstract, experimental stuff" was showing up in pieces on things like In My Room, Drive-In, When I Grow Up, Please Let Me Wonder, California Girls, Let Him Run Wild, and the whole of Pet Sounds. Smile wasn't exactly Brian pulling the carpet out from under everyone although it was indeed more radical than the stuff before it, sure. But to say that the "abstract, experimental stuff" just doesn't work is to negate the impact of not only the Smile music, but many of the Beach Boys' hit singles, not to mention a little inconsequential "abstract, experimental" ditty like Pet Sounds.

Come on, dude. Even in my defense of Michael Love I haven't made such a ridiculous statement. I'd say the Smile sessions are best left unreleased and not wasted on the likes of you.

[Mahalo]

Jesus galo gobbling Christ on a pogo stick.

I don't think I've ever read a more ridiculous statement on this forum and everyone knows that the Beach Boys' fan base is a collective cesspool for ridiculousness at times.

RBB, That was well put.

[Jim V.]

I think that creatively Brian has been kind of pigeon holed into a stereo type of avant garde off the cuff kind of creative music. He just wants to make a rock n roll record.. Sometimes I think this.. Brian may write a song and others around him will say lets put two french horns in and  a bass harmonica just like 66. But is that what Brian wants?
SMiLE make no mistake about it was the creative peak of Team/Corporation Brian! And just like human nature the only one person to destroy it was the  man creating it!
Oh and I spoke to Van Dyke the other day whilst he was in Nsw Australia.

I definitely agree that sometimes I get the feeling that somebody is there making everything all Pet Sounds-ish, you know, on songs like "The Like in I Love You" or on things on That Lucky Old Sun. One thing that especially annoys me is the "Farmer's Daughter" part in "I Got Rhythm". That is just soooo not something that seems like Brian would do. And alas, it was boring old Foskett's cheesy idea. Yes, sometimes Brian "quotes" himself musically, but not in that dumb way. I just think they should let Brian produce how he wants, and if he doesn't wanna use the bass harmonica or french horns, or super reverbed drums, they should let him make what he wants. Which is why I think his self-titled album and Love  You are probably two of his most honest albums since the 60s. Only my opinion of course.

[PhilCohen]

I'm kind of flabbergasted, when I read people say, the SMiLE songs aren't that great.
Personally, I think the Pet Sounds sounds songs, and especially the SMiLE songs are
the greatest one, two clutch of songs I can think of. By anybody.

Surf's Up, Hero's and Villians, Good Vibrations, Cabin Essence. Just remarkable.

I agree Some of the SMiLE songs may not be as great as those four. But song for
song, I think it trumps Sgt Pepper, Unless you add Penny Lane/ Strawberry Fields.

Sgt pepper is the same way, I mean does anybody really believe Lovely Rita is in the
same class with Day In The Life,?

More than the that, In SMiLE the songs are all so interconnected, it's more like seeing
it as one whole piece, at least to me, it's all one piece like Gershwin or something.


Personally I am most excited about hearing a faux nearly complete sounding album on
disc one, that is better in fidelity and content than any of the bootlegs I have heard assembled.

Also the possibility of a song that was thought to have no lead vocals, or songs more fleshed
out than we were aware existed.

The other thing is I find it weird that people still don't believe it's coming out, people like Phil Cohen.

But how many times over the years have we been told that "Smile" was going to be released, and then it wasn't?
There's deep rooted hate between Mike, Brian & Al.  It wouldn't take much to cause this project to collapse.

[Turtle_13]

Just posted this message on the Steve Hoffmann SMiLE tread:

Browsing through the new issue of Uncut magazine in Tower Records Dublin today, at the end of the new music review section, beside recommendations, has a box which notes three upcoming reviews in next months edition: Beach Boys.........SMiLE sessions.

AGD's educated guess of September release looking more likely........

[seanmurd]

But how many times over the years have we been told that "Smile" was going to be released, and then it wasn't?
There's deep rooted hate between Mike, Brian & Al.  It wouldn't take much to cause this project to collapse.

SMiLE's release has been mentioned or vaguely promised many times before, but it's NEVER (since the original shelving) gotten to the point where there was 11 months of studio time put in, editing decisions discussed, formats planned, liner notes written, etc. I suspect that at this point you WANT this not to happen, just so you can say "Told you so!"

[Jason]

But how many times over the years have we been told that "Smile" was going to be released, and then it wasn't?
There's deep rooted hate between Mike, Brian & Al.  It wouldn't take much to cause this project to collapse.

You officially have no idea what you're talking about. As much as I love a challenging opinion, yours are merely negative for the sake of negativity. Deep-rooted hate between Michael, Brian, and Al? Board's turning blue...

[buddhahat]

Just posted this message on the Steve Hoffmann SMiLE tread:

Browsing through the new issue of Uncut magazine in Tower Records Dublin today, at the end of the new music review section, beside recommendations, has a box which notes three upcoming reviews in next months edition: Beach Boys.........SMiLE sessions.

AGD's educated guess of September release looking more likely........

Thanks for the heads up, Turtle!

[rab2591]

But how many times over the years have we been told that "Smile" was going to be released, and then it wasn't?
There's deep rooted hate between Mike, Brian & Al.  It wouldn't take much to cause this project to collapse.

You officially have no idea what you're talking about. As much as I love a challenging opinion, yours are merely negative for the sake of negativity. Deep-rooted hate between Michael, Brian, and Al? Board's turning blue...

Yeah, I guess an official press release from Capitol, Brian's approval of the tapes, Mark linett's interview where he discusses all the work they are doing for this release, Al's insistence it's coming out, Mike's insistence it's coming out, the Brother Record's takedown of SMiLE youtube videos, new (and recently released) mixes of 'Wonderful' and 'Cabinessence', etc, etc, etc, (all of this in the last four months) warrant pessimism about this release.

Jeesh Phil, I am a very pessimistic person, but I see no problem whatsoever in being optimistic about this upcoming release. Your negativity is a real drag on this board - and frankly unnecessary.

[pixletwin]

This weekend lets all get together and toilet paper Phil's house. Anyone else game? 

[rab2591]

[PhilCohen]

But how many times over the years have we been told that "Smile" was going to be released, and then it wasn't?
There's deep rooted hate between Mike, Brian & Al.  It wouldn't take much to cause this project to collapse.

You officially have no idea what you're talking about. As much as I love a challenging opinion, yours are merely negative for the sake of negativity. Deep-rooted hate between Michael, Brian, and Al? Board's turning blue...

[Deleted by me. Goodbye]

[rab2591]

But how many times over the years have we been told that "Smile" was going to be released, and then it wasn't?
There's deep rooted hate between Mike, Brian & Al.  It wouldn't take much to cause this project to collapse.

You officially have no idea what you're talking about. As much as I love a challenging opinion, yours are merely negative for the sake of negativity. Deep-rooted hate between Michael, Brian, and Al? Board's turning blue...

Are you to deny that Mike Love has a long history of suing Brian Wilson & Al Jardine, or that Love's primadonna tactics delayed the release of the "Pet Sounds Sessions" box for 18 months. I'm basing my pessimistic predictions on past history.

An 18 month delay is not the same as the entire project collapsing. And with the 50th coming right up I don't think Mike is going to do anything to distance himself from Brian or Al.

The Beach Boys will forever be able to ride the high of sun and surf - but there is a market of SMiLE fanatics out there that could fade over time - and I think everyone (from Mike to the execs at Capitol) realize that. This is the perfect time to release it.

[Andrew G. Doe]

There's deep rooted hate between Mike, Brian & Al.  It wouldn't take much to cause this project to collapse.

Phil, I'm going to say this once, once only and then dismiss you from my conciousness.

Regarding The Smile Sessions, you simply don't know what the foder you're talking about: you don't have the faintest inkling of the first idea, and you can interpret that on any level you care to, because it's a fact.

And this is not me flaunting any inside information that folk here seem to think I might have, this is just reading what's been said since March 11th this year, joining a few dots and making some logical, dispassionate deductions.

[Jason]

But how many times over the years have we been told that "Smile" was going to be released, and then it wasn't?
There's deep rooted hate between Mike, Brian & Al.  It wouldn't take much to cause this project to collapse.

You officially have no idea what you're talking about. As much as I love a challenging opinion, yours are merely negative for the sake of negativity. Deep-rooted hate between Michael, Brian, and Al? Board's turning blue...

Are you to deny that Mike Love has a long history of suing Brian Wilson & Al Jardine, or that Love's primadonna tactics delayed the release of the "Pet Sounds Sessions" box for 18 months. I'm basing my pessimistic predictions on past history.

Oh. My. God.

You're like Ray Charles in the Louvre; you haven't a clue. You're so out of place in this discussion; you're like an albino at the Apollo. I want you, right now, to tell me where I denied any of that of which you charge me. No answer? Because I didn't deny those. They happened. They're in the past. How in the blue foder would anyone even try to deny what happened?

You are nuts. You know absofuckinglutely NOTHING. See, at least when guys like Tobelman and Fishmonk post stuff that people may disagree with, it's done with some kind of intelligence and thought. You are making a dog's dinner of this thread. Knock it off.

[Dunderhead]

 

[Dunderhead]

Did you guys just run Philcohen out of town? Jeeze. I rarely know what arguments here are in relation to, usually over something totally stupid and pedantic. Phil may be a pessimist, but he's just expressing his opinion. They've promised to release SMiLE a dozen times over 40 years, I think there's good reason to be skeptical, and I wouldn't call the assertion that the project is quite fragile particularly contentious. Clearly the long drought in news is getting to everyone whether they would admit it or not. So I hope Phil doesn't leave because some of you are freaking out on him.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Did you guys just run Philcohen out of town? Jeeze. I rarely know what arguments here are in relation to, usually over something totally stupid and pedantic. Phil may be a pessimist, but he's just expressing his opinion. They've promised to release SMiLE a dozen times over 40 years, I think there's good reason to be skeptical, and I wouldn't call the assertion that the project is quite fragile particularly contentious. Clearly the long drought in news is getting to everyone whether they would admit it or not. So I hope Phil doesn't leave because some of you are freaking out on him.

He's not just expressing his opinion, which he's entirely free to do, he's pissing people off - most regular posters, in fact - with his Eeyore-like gloom that flies in the face of all possible evidence. For whatever reason (and I have a fair idea why) he doesn't want The Smile Sessions released, and he feels if he says so often enough, it'll (not) happen. He's an annoying idiot and yes, I sincerely hope he has left, because he's contributed exactly nothing to this forum for months except a deadening blanket of gloom.

[Jonas]

hmmm yes, stupid and pedantic

[Jason]

Did you guys just run Philcohen out of town? Jeeze. I rarely know what arguments here are in relation to, usually over something totally stupid and pedantic. Phil may be a pessimist, but he's just expressing his opinion. They've promised to release SMiLE a dozen times over 40 years, I think there's good reason to be skeptical, and I wouldn't call the assertion that the project is quite fragile particularly contentious. Clearly the long drought in news is getting to everyone whether they would admit it or not. So I hope Phil doesn't leave because some of you are freaking out on him.

If he has left, he has done so by his own decision. No one here has ever said he had to leave. I don't care if he leaves or not; it's his decision. We agree to disagree. That's life. More power to and Clapton help us all for thinking for ourselves. I'm not going to get on my knees at his feet and beg like some child for him to stay. Disagreement is part of life. Most people disagree with him like most people disagree with you or Bill Tobelman. However, there's no reason to leave because of a differing opinion. Sheesh, if everyone left this forum after a disagreement, the forum would effectively cease to exist. If he wants to leave, fine. If he wants to stay, fine. His decision. Not yours, not mine, none but his own. Live and let live. The world is bigger than this forum. If you're going to get that butthurt over disagreeing with a text box I would highly suggest getting off of the internet and taking two steps back.

[Dunderhead]

It's not just a matter of disagreement, it's a matter of people here taking other's opinions much too personally. I wouldn't say RBB that your posts the last couple of pages have been calm, understanding "agree to disagree" type posts, rather reading them I get the impression that you're about to throw your computer across the room in anger. I totally sympathize with Phil, when all I wanted to do was post a few fun things with some musings a lot of posters were real jerks about it, and still mention and mock me all the time even when those arguments have long since ended. As obnoxious as you guys think Phil is, I really think some of you are being far ruder and more obnoxious than Phil, so take a chill pill.

He's not just expressing his opinion, which he's entirely free to do, he's pissing people off

This is exactly what people were freaking out on me about, because I was "pissing people off", which anyone should recognize is pretty silly. You say you don't care if he just expresses his opinion, only if he pisses people off, but what are people getting pissed about? The opinion he's expressing.