SMiLE Sessions box set!

[Chris Brown]

No matter how "lovers"   spin it, it was still terribly lame of Mike to veto the smile lyrics

I think Mike is being accused of powers he didn't have. I'm pretty confidant that Mike could not veto lyrics, especially if their Producer did not agree.

No matter how "lovers"   spin it, it was still terribly lame of Mike to veto the smile lyrics

I think Mike is being accused of powers he didn't have. I'm pretty confidant that Mike could not veto lyrics, especially if their Producer did not agree.

I agree 100%, I don't think Mike's disapproval was anymore more than a possible annoyance to Brian. The way he's blamed in smiles downfall is complete bullmerda IMO

That said, he didn't like the lyrics and to my understanding he wasn't quiet about it

I agree that his role in the downfall has always been blown way out of proportion, but at the same time I think his objections, if they were as strong as everybody has told over the years, were more than just an "annoyance" to Brian.  

During that period especially, Brian desperately needed reassurance and validation.  For the first time in his career, he had begun to doubt whether or not he was on the right musical path, and I think given that state of mind, any resistance he would encounter (from Mike or anyone) was magnified in his brain and only made him more doubtful and less confident in the work he was doing.  That isn't Mike's fault, of course, but I do think that Brian was impacted by Mike's criticisms more than most other people would have been, and that probably helped to reinforce the self-doubt that he was already feeling to begin with.

I'll bet at the time, Mike had no idea how his dissent to the lyrics would affect Brian.

I completely agree - up until that point, Mike knew Brian to be a strong and confident music maker who would always get his way and never doubt himself.  I didn't mean to suggest that Mike knew the impact that the criticism was having on Brian, merely that it had more of an effect than it reasonably should have. 

Brian was meeting resistance on a lot of fronts around that time, and was (understandably) becoming more and more frustrated - the long 3 part Andrele interview in LLVS touches on this.  Mike's objections were just another thing wearing Brian down at a time when he needed reassurance the most.  Hell, the guy supposedly junked a mix of "Heroes" because some random person off the street didn't like it - a huge overreaction to be sure, but warranted or not, that's how Brian took it, and similarly I think the resistance he was encountering from the band had the effect of adding to his already palpable (and still growing) self-doubt.

[Dunderhead]

Some things never change. I wonder how we can have this same debate over and over again without anyone ever being convinced of anything. Personally I don't see the purpose of such a debate, nobody is to "blame" for SMiLE not coming out. It's not like the failure to release smile is some crime that needs to be prosecuted, nobody is to "blame". Brian didn't want it released so it wasn't released. The idea that Mike somehow blocked smile but was fine with Smiley doesn't really make any sense. Brian obviously valued Mike's opinion, and was very concerned with how the album was received. You can disagree with Mike and believe the album would have done well, but you can't fault Mike for his opinion, he was just being honest.

[David Kennedy]

Mike now says the music was COOL. In 1967 he hated in -2011 he now thinks its worthwhile, because he's going to make some money out of it!
Smile was Brian's masterpiece and it was created out of the love of music ,not money.

Holy Brianista reaction, Batman.

Michael has stated time and time again that his only beef was the lyrics. Just as with Hang On To Your Ego. But I'd say he warmed to Smile long before Brian did...

My problem has always been that after Good Vibrations was a hit then the other band mates should have given Brian free reign over the next album no matter how weird it sounded,considering it made all of them a lot of money. Brian needed Van Dyke to finish SMiLE and once Mike confronted VDP which was the final straw for VDP he left the album and it was never gonna get complete after that.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I find the term "Brianista" silly. It's like the person using it doesn't realize that they are sitting on a pendulum.

Also, I would be hesitant to suggest that Mike only objected to the lyrics. He seems to be quite critical of Brian's melancholy in Endless Harmony.

[smokeythebear]

I think Mike opposed the drugs and thought that SMiLE was a product of them. I think that Mike expected to be responsible for the lyrics after Pet sounds was finished, Brian promised him that in away (I just need to do this one album). I think Mike had a valid point that alot of people were feeding Brian drugs such as Loren (Acid and Grass), Van Dyke (Speed and downers).  Van Dyke walking or the drugs or Mike are not alone the reason for not finishing SMiLE, it is all of the points mentioned that produced a weight on Brian that triggered a depression.

I have a similar story about an unfinished album that pushed me into a depression years ago, we recorded everything, did not mix and finish it. I think i have a pretty good idea how Brian feels about SMiLE and why he did not finish it. A product of deep depression is that you get scared of basicly everything, i was scared of opening the mail, going out. I looked myself in my room just sleeping on the soffa for a couple of years, sounds familiar? Then my dad died, and that was about the time i found out about Pet sounds Brian and Smile, his life was scary similar to mine.

Anyway, i dont think one point was the reason..

Mike now says the music was COOL. In 1967 he hated in -2011 he now thinks its worthwhile, because he's going to make some money out of it!
Smile was Brian's masterpiece and it was created out of the love of music ,not money.

Holy Brianista reaction, Batman.

Michael has stated time and time again that his only beef was the lyrics. Just as with Hang On To Your Ego. But I'd say he warmed to Smile long before Brian did...

My problem has always been that after Good Vibrations was a hit then the other band mates should have given Brian free reign over the next album no matter how weird it sounded,considering it made all of them a lot of money. Brian needed Van Dyke to finish SMiLE and once Mike confronted VDP which was the final straw for VDP he left the album and it was never gonna get complete after that.

[drbeachboy]

Mike now says the music was COOL. In 1967 he hated in -2011 he now thinks its worthwhile, because he's going to make some money out of it!
Smile was Brian's masterpiece and it was created out of the love of music ,not money.

Holy Brianista reaction, Batman.

Michael has stated time and time again that his only beef was the lyrics. Just as with Hang On To Your Ego. But I'd say he warmed to Smile long before Brian did...

My problem has always been that after Good Vibrations was a hit then the other band mates should have given Brian free reign over the next album no matter how weird it sounded,considering it made all of them a lot of money. Brian needed Van Dyke to finish SMiLE and once Mike confronted VDP which was the final straw for VDP he left the album and it was never gonna get complete after that.

I always come back to the fact that Smiley Smile was released. How anti Smile music could Mike have been when quite a bit Smile music was re-recorded and presented in a more far out way than Smile, itself. Seeing that Smiley was indeed released, I am convinced if Brian wanted Smile released, it would have been released.

[The Heartical Don]

Mike now says the music was COOL. In 1967 he hated in -2011 he now thinks its worthwhile, because he's going to make some money out of it!
Smile was Brian's masterpiece and it was created out of the love of music ,not money.

Holy Brianista reaction, Batman.

Michael has stated time and time again that his only beef was the lyrics. Just as with Hang On To Your Ego. But I'd say he warmed to Smile long before Brian did...

My problem has always been that after Good Vibrations was a hit then the other band mates should have given Brian free reign over the next album no matter how weird it sounded,considering it made all of them a lot of money. Brian needed Van Dyke to finish SMiLE and once Mike confronted VDP which was the final straw for VDP he left the album and it was never gonna get complete after that.

I always come back to the fact that Smiley Smile was released. How anti Smile music could Mike have been when quite a bit Smile music was re-recorded and presented in a more far out way than Smile, itself. Seeing that Smiley was indeed released, I am convinced if Brian wanted Smile released, it would have been released.

Eminently sane reasoning.

[bgas]

Mike now says the music was COOL. In 1967 he hated in -2011 he now thinks its worthwhile, because he's going to make some money out of it!
Smile was Brian's masterpiece and it was created out of the love of music ,not money.

Holy Brianista reaction, Batman.

Michael has stated time and time again that his only beef was the lyrics. Just as with Hang On To Your Ego. But I'd say he warmed to Smile long before Brian did...

My problem has always been that after Good Vibrations was a hit then the other band mates should have given Brian free reign over the next album no matter how weird it sounded,considering it made all of them a lot of money. Brian needed Van Dyke to finish SMiLE and once Mike confronted VDP which was the final straw for VDP he left the album and it was never gonna get complete after that.

I always come back to the fact that Smiley Smile was released. How anti Smile music could Mike have been when quite a bit Smile music was re-recorded and presented in a more far out way than Smile, itself. Seeing that Smiley was indeed released, I am convinced if Brian wanted Smile released, it would have been released.

Not certain I see your point here. Smiley could be presented as odd, but who's to say what Smile would have been, had it been released?
Smile wasn't, for whatever reason( we're never really going to know); still, they had a contract with Capitol; they had to have something, so they did Smiley
And evidently MIke was able to push himself farther into the sounds than previously.

[Loaf]

Perhaps Brian tried to explain his Zen interpretation of Smile to Mike and the Boys and they didn't accept it...?

They convinced Brian that they should stick to the formula of making 'just pop/rock' records, and he eventually came round to the conclusion that hiding coded deeply hidden spiritual and philosophical messages was 'inappropriate' for the band.

[drbeachboy]

Mike now says the music was COOL. In 1967 he hated in -2011 he now thinks its worthwhile, because he's going to make some money out of it!
Smile was Brian's masterpiece and it was created out of the love of music ,not money.

Holy Brianista reaction, Batman.

Michael has stated time and time again that his only beef was the lyrics. Just as with Hang On To Your Ego. But I'd say he warmed to Smile long before Brian did...

My problem has always been that after Good Vibrations was a hit then the other band mates should have given Brian free reign over the next album no matter how weird it sounded,considering it made all of them a lot of money. Brian needed Van Dyke to finish SMiLE and once Mike confronted VDP which was the final straw for VDP he left the album and it was never gonna get complete after that.

I always come back to the fact that Smiley Smile was released. How anti Smile music could Mike have been when quite a bit Smile music was re-recorded and presented in a more far out way than Smile, itself. Seeing that Smiley was indeed released, I am convinced if Brian wanted Smile released, it would have been released.

Not certain I see your point here. Smiley could be presented as odd, but who's to say what Smile would have been, had it been released?
Smile wasn't, for whatever reason( we're never really going to know); still, they had a contract with Capitol; they had to have something, so they did Smiley
And evidently MIke was able to push himself farther into the sounds than previously.

My point is for the people who think Mike single handedly kept Smile from being released, need to look at the fact that he sang on an album that was far stranger than Smile was. If Mike was so set against Smile as some claim, why wasn't Smiley more pre-Smile-ish? Smiley is far closer to Smile than it is to Pet Sounds, Party or Summer Days. Mike's displeasure with some of the lyrics, and telling Brian so, was not the reason for it not being released. The related songs on Smiley have the same melody and lyrics as the Smile versions.

[The Heartical Don]

Perhaps Brian tried to explain his Zen interpretation of Smile to Mike and the Boys and they didn't accept it...?

They convinced Brian that they should stick to the formula of making 'just pop/rock' records, and he eventually came round to the conclusion that hiding coded deeply hidden spiritual and philosophical messages was 'inappropriate' for the band.

Shall we place bets? That:

a) this thread will have hit 100 pages before the release of the Big Monster;
b) or not.

[Andrew G. Doe]

No matter how "lovers"  spin it, it was still terribly lame of Mike to veto the smile lyrics

Mike didn't veto any Smile lyrics (that was "Hang On To Your Ego") - he questioned some of them ("over and over/the crow cries/uncover the cornfield") and, having been told by their author that he didn't know what they meant either, then proceeded to sing them, and excellently.

My own theory concerning Smile is that Brian never intended to release it in 1966, or 1967, or indeed in the 20th century at all. The gameplan was to leave it unfinished and release the sessions as part of the 50th anniversary of the band. After all, as Bill said, "mysteries and myths sell records."

[Andrew G. Doe]

Perhaps Brian tried to explain his Zen interpretation of Smile to Mike and the Boys and they didn't accept it...?

They convinced Brian that they should stick to the formula of making 'just pop/rock' records, and he eventually came round to the conclusion that hiding coded deeply hidden spiritual and philosophical messages was 'inappropriate' for the band.

Shall we place bets? That:

a) this thread will have hit 100 pages before the release of the Big Monster;
b) or not.

Lessee... thread started 3/11 at 8am... 1561 posts to date... 25 posts to a page... album's going to be released late September... yeah, 100 pages, no sweat. 

[drbeachboy]

No matter how "lovers"   spin it, it was still terribly lame of Mike to veto the smile lyrics

Mike didn't veto any Smile lyrics (that was "Hang On To Your Ego") - he questioned some of them ("over and over/the crow cries/uncover the cornfield") and, having been told by their author that he didn't know what they meant either, then proceeded to sing them, and excellently.

My own theory concerning Smile is that Brian never intended to release it in 1966, or 1967, or indeed in the 20th century at all. The gameplan was to leave it unfinished and release the sessions as part of the 50th anniversary of the band. After all, as Bill said, "mysteries and myths sell records."

Brilliant forsight on Brian's part. I'll bet you J'nevelyn advised him on that 21st Century release date too.

[bgas]

SMiLE 101....  Oops I'm a bit early for that.

 

My own theory concerning Smile is that Brian never intended to release it in 1966, or 1967, or indeed in the 20th century at all. The gameplan was to leave it unfinished and release the sessions as part of the 50th anniversary of the band. After all, as Bill said, "mysteries and myths sell records."

OOOO, now you're taking away all the mystery. Don't jinx it, it'll be another 44 years....

[Chocolate Shake Man]

My point is for the people who think Mike single handedly kept Smile from being released, need to look at the fact that he sang on an album that was far stranger than Smile was.

Who here suggested that Mike single handedly kept Smile from being released?

[Cam Mott]

No one probably. Someone did single-handedly keep SMiLE from being released...[cough] Brian.

I'm not sure why we can't let Brian just own it. The Boys did everything in their power to make SMiLE happen for Brian even with whatever "problems" they may have had with it or how mistreated they felt by Brian. They were very upset over SMiLE, very upset that Brian just unilaterally junked it; almost/did break up the band according to Brian. Even after that, they plowed right back in doing everything in their power to make Smiley happen for Brian. We need to get over it, imo.

[rogerlancelot]

Wasn't it mentioned here sometime back about a group meeting circa December, 1966 where the band vetoed the album? Or am I misremembering something? Piping hot clam chowder enemas!

[drbeachboy]

My point is for the people who think Mike single handedly kept Smile from being released, need to look at the fact that he sang on an album that was far stranger than Smile was.

Who here suggested that Mike single handedly kept Smile from being released?

Single-handed may be the wrong word. Let's replace that with "People who think Mike was the main culprit".

[Chocolate Shake Man]

My point is for the people who think Mike single handedly kept Smile from being released, need to look at the fact that he sang on an album that was far stranger than Smile was.

Who here suggested that Mike single handedly kept Smile from being released?

Single-handed may be the wrong word. Let's replace that with "People who think Mike was the main culprit".

So people like Brian Wilson himself.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

No one probably. Someone did single-handedly keep SMiLE from being released...[cough] Brian.

I'm not sure why we can't let Brian just own it. The Boys did everything in their power to make SMiLE happen for Brian even with whatever "problems" they may have had with it or how mistreated they felt by Brian. They were very upset over SMiLE, very upset that Brian just unilaterally junked it; almost/did break up the band according to Brian. Even after that, they plowed right back in doing everything in their power to make Smiley happen for Brian. We need to get over it, imo.

The idea that one man basically chooses his own destiny is a very comforting and, currently, a very American idea, but it's also a myth. While Brian was the one who ultimately decided to not continue with the project (a point that no one disagrees with) there were nevertheless a significant amount of factors that contributed to this decision, many of which were out of Brian's own control. In fact, one could say that it was Brian's own inability to fully control the project that led him to junk it.

[Shady]

Mike didn't veto any Smile lyrics (that was "Hang On To Your Ego") - he questioned some of them ("over and over/the crow cries/uncover the cornfield") and, having been told by their author that he didn't know what they meant either, then proceeded to sing them, and excellently.

All more innocent than history has made it lol

[Jason]

My point is for the people who think Mike single handedly kept Smile from being released, need to look at the fact that he sang on an album that was far stranger than Smile was.

Who here suggested that Mike single handedly kept Smile from being released?

Single-handed may be the wrong word. Let's replace that with "People who think Mike was the main culprit".

So people like Brian Wilson himself.

And...didn't Michael have reservations about parts of Pet Sounds, and the group with regards to 'Til I Die? Both were finished and prepared for release. To paraphrase/add to a Michael Vosse quote, Michael Love/the other Beach Boys, just like drugs, is the biggest red herring in the Brian Wilson story; I just don't buy it.

[Cam Mott]

No one probably. Someone did single-handedly keep SMiLE from being released...[cough] Brian.

I'm not sure why we can't let Brian just own it. The Boys did everything in their power to make SMiLE happen for Brian even with whatever "problems" they may have had with it or how mistreated they felt by Brian. They were very upset over SMiLE, very upset that Brian just unilaterally junked it; almost/did break up the band according to Brian. Even after that, they plowed right back in doing everything in their power to make Smiley happen for Brian. We need to get over it, imo.

The idea that one man basically chooses his own destiny is a very comforting and, currently, a very American idea, but it's also a myth. While Brian was the one who ultimately decided to not continue with the project (a point that no one disagrees with) there were nevertheless a significant amount of factors that contributed to this decision, many of which were out of Brian's own control. In fact, one could say that it was Brian's own inability to fully control the project that led him to junk it.

That's a possibility but I don't see it. Everything from the time tells me Brian was very much in control of the group and the label and the Posse and his creation and had SMiLE well under control. Brian did not seem to care what others may think, he was going to do his thing regardless of the label, the group, the Posse. Not in a jerk way, though it amounted to being a lovable jerk often, but in a I'm in my creative zone and you are in my zone and my rules apply in my zone. So, you could say or complain all you wanted but Brian's confidence and enthusiasm in the zone swept you along and you understood that was the way it was. And on top of that the Boys wanted Brian in his zone and they wanted to be in his zone with him, it was exciting.

Whatever his reasons, they were his reasons despite what anyone else thought or wanted. He was also the Producer. It seems to me the problem isn't what happened, it's us wrapping our head around the fact that Brian didn't dig SMiLE enough to release it?

[Jason]

And let's keep in mind that Brian's "zone" is what made them rich to begin with, since money is also another sticky area for the Brianistas.