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Question: Should this discussion be moved to the Sandbox?
Naahh, Beach Boys, SMiLE and drugs is as on-topic as can be - 99 (67.8%)
It's about time, I've requested this at least 20 pages back - 27 (18.5%)
Who cares, it isn't going to be released anyway - 11 (7.5%)
I don't like drugs and I don't like SMiLE, we might as well delete this discussion - 2 (1.4%)
The SMiLE music and drug use cloud this discussion - 7 (4.8%)
Total Voters: 138

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Author Topic: SMiLE Sessions box set!  (Read 1728473 times)
Chris Brown
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« Reply #325 on: March 18, 2011, 09:50:10 PM »

catbirdman,,,,,,,


post #1?Huh?

Hell of a way to make an entrance  Cool
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« Reply #326 on: March 19, 2011, 12:54:08 AM »

catbirdman,,,,,,,


post #1?Huh?

Hell of a way to make an entrance  Cool

Hear hear! Absolutely inspired. Are you related to Lewis Shiner? Shocked
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« Reply #327 on: March 19, 2011, 03:04:36 PM »

Here's a question I don't expect an answer to: what does (I'm paraphrasing) 'she got the lot in the divorce' mean?  Specifically, I mean, why?

An author or composer or artist has copyright over their work for 50/70/75 years after their death, unless they're unfortunate enought to be in China or Somalia or somewhere similarly unrepentant.  So why (a) would VDP let his work (and a significant bit of his legacy) go as part of a divorce settlement and/or (b) why would his divorcée demand or win it?  Surely, only - ONLY - because their (her?) lawyers had reasoned it had some sort of serious monetary value.  Otherwise it's just his old bike and his rusting spanner set and his broken up train set.

Does this imply a can of worms?  Does anyone like these worms?  Do you?
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Dan Lega
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« Reply #328 on: March 19, 2011, 03:54:18 PM »

So why (a) would VDP let his work (and a significant bit of his legacy) go as part of a divorce settlement and/or (b) why would his divorcée demand or win it?  Surely, only - ONLY - because their (her?) lawyers had reasoned it had some sort of serious monetary value.


    Yes, Van Dyke believes they are worth some money.  If I remember correctly, I asked Van Dyke about the acetates when I met him backstage in London at the premiere of SMiLE in 2004.  I should probably go back and dig up what I wrote about it then, because maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but I think I asked Mr. Parks if he had listened to his old acetates and he essentially said, "No, his ex-wife has them, and I've told her to hold onto them -- I've got daughters in college, and that's an expensive propostion."  Meaning, yes, he thinks they're worth some money, and that he was probably expecting Capitol to put out a box set soon, and he therefore wanted Durrie to hold onto them until Capitol is willing to pay for them. 

     If you recall, he said in interviews about finishing SMiLE in 2004 that everything new that he wrote for that project was really new.  He didn't listen to the acetates, and he didn't ask Frank Holmes to provide him with any old lyric sheets that may have had unused vintage lyrics on them.  (I think he also wanted Frank to hold onto them for a possible payday, too, figuring he got screwed out of a nice payday back in the day when they didn't use his drawings.)  So he figured he could write some good lyrics for SMiLE 2004 that would reflect the growth and travels of he and Brian that got them there, and hold out for a nice payday for Frank and Durrie, too.  (Now, I'm not entirely sure that Frank has any more lyrics than what he has already told us about, but I seem to remember it being mentioned.)

     But what about the vintage lyrics for Plymouth Rock, you say?  Probably the only reason we got the vintage lyrics to Plymouth Rock was that Frank Holmes had provided those lyrics to an interviewer at one point and they were printed in an article.  (Though I also seem to remember that this might be the one SMiLE song sheet with missing lyrics that Brian had in his possession.  Though it could be that Darian had a copy of Van Dyke's lyrics for this song because he got a copy of them when, or from when, Frank gave a copy to the interviewer?)

    But back to the main point... It's been 7 years since 2004, so maybe the Parks' girls college bills have been paid, and Durrie and Van Dyke are living quite comfortably and don't need a huge paycheck.  And then again, the girls may still be paying off loans, or they may be going for PhD's!  Either way, I imagine at some point soon Durrie Parks will be approached about what she has, and let's all hope that the negotiations will be fruitful!   

     Now, as to any legal wranglings over the acetates, as far as I understand it, seeing as the acetates were freely given to Van Dyke, and that he freely left them with Durrie, Capitol and the Beach Boys cannot force her to give them up.  (However, I'm sure most you also realize that she cannot legally make copies of them and sell them, because the material on them is copyrighted.  She would probably have to wait until the copyright ran out until she could sell copies of them.  And copyright runs out when, 25, 50, 75 years after Brians death?!) 

     However, I just had a thought -- she could probably legally sell them to someone else, or auction them off.  So... if there is an extremely rich Beach Boy fan out there, maybe you could buy them for an astronomical amount and then give them freely (or for a very nominal price) to Capitol for inclusion in the box set!  Now who's going to step up?  Cam?  AGD?  I know you two are loaded!  ;-)

     Or an even weirder notion -- how many Beach Boy fans could we get to "donate" $1, $5, $10 or more to a Durrie Parks fund in order for us to finally hear what is on them?  Who's in touch with Van Dyke?  Maybe we could set up a paypal fund that we contribute to, and once the acetates are turned over to Capitol, Durrie Parks could collect her money from us!  {Or better yet, we could give the money to Brad Elliott to hold for us while negotiations take place.  It would be safe in his hands, right?  --Sorry, had to do the joke before someone else did.}

Love and merci,   Dan Lega





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« Reply #329 on: March 19, 2011, 04:17:50 PM »

IIMO, the acetates have been lost or are in terrible shape. This was mentioned what, almost 10 years ago, and not a peep about the since? I think that if there would have been anything new on those, word would have leaked out by now.
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« Reply #330 on: March 19, 2011, 04:34:07 PM »

IIMO, the acetates have been lost or are in terrible shape. This was mentioned what, almost 10 years ago, and not a peep about the since? I think that if there would have been anything new on those, word would have leaked out by now.

You must think that VDP and his ex-wife are complete idiots.
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« Reply #331 on: March 19, 2011, 04:36:23 PM »


I almost think the vinyl is simply in there to 1.) make the package physically larger and 2.) to jack up the price.

But hey -- it would have been a record in the 1960s. Maybe that's the way to think about it.




I haven't read the whole thread, so I don't know if anyone else mentioned this... but I think your "3rd" way to think about it is more correct.  To me, the two main reasons they're including an LP in the box set is to 1) make sure that the Beach Boys version of SMiLE finally gets placed on vinyl, just as it should have been so many years ago, and 2) to also make sure that Frank Holmes legendary artwork is finally placed in all its full size glory on a real honest-to-goodness LP cover!

This large size also let's them include a large LP sized book that publishes Frank's other drawings in full size, too.

But, yeh, they still could have left the LP to be sold separately, but if you're going to pay for a SMiLE box set, then you should get a chance to experience the excitement of holding a real SMiLE LP!  At least that's my thought.

Love and merci,   Dan Lega
« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 04:42:47 PM by Dan Lega » Logged
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« Reply #332 on: March 19, 2011, 07:29:29 PM »

Hell, I like vinyl! It sounds nice, and The Beach Boys suit it better than most bands. A CD man can just keep the records in their beautiful box until they see the light and buy a turntable imo.
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« Reply #333 on: March 19, 2011, 07:49:33 PM »

I hope the vinyl doesn't come in some crazy bright color or anything.  Black vinyl with a Capitol rainbow label, please.
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« Reply #334 on: March 19, 2011, 10:16:55 PM »

it would be nice of the sleeve was the old school, slick pasted on cardboard type that would've been released in 67. im not a big fan of newer LP sleeves with the artwork printed directly onto white cardboard
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« Reply #335 on: March 19, 2011, 10:48:27 PM »

it would be nice of the sleeve was the old school, slick pasted on cardboard type that would've been released in 67. im not a big fan of newer LP sleeves with the artwork printed directly onto white cardboard

Yeah, that old gray 50's and 60's era paperboard with pasted on cover slicks would be cool for an authentic retro look.  I wonder if any presses are even set up to do that anymore.  And, to be totally old school, the 60's practice of the back slick (or inside slick on a double album) wrapping around the sides and over the edges of the front, with the front cover slick pasted on top (rather than the reverse, which became popular in the seventies) would have to be followed.

In the US, 20/20 was the first original release BB album with its artwork printed directly white paperboard (a fold-out Unipak, which was a fairly new design at the time), and 15 Big Ones was the last original release BB album with pasted on cover slicks.  
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« Reply #336 on: March 19, 2011, 10:59:20 PM »

I hope the vinyl doesn't come in some crazy bright color or anything.  Black vinyl with a Capitol rainbow label, please.

That would be very good
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« Reply #337 on: March 19, 2011, 11:36:55 PM »

I hope the vinyl doesn't come in some crazy bright color or anything.  Black vinyl with a Capitol rainbow label, please.

Ahem... Brother Records label, surely!  Grin
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« Reply #338 on: March 20, 2011, 12:53:30 AM »

I hope the vinyl doesn't come in some crazy bright color or anything.  Black vinyl with a Capitol rainbow label, please.

Ahem... Brother Records label, surely!  Grin

That would be cool too, but if the album had been released in late '66/early '67 would it have really been pressed on that label?
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« Reply #339 on: March 20, 2011, 01:07:28 AM »

Very true. But there is an even bigger "stumbling block" in this whole project. Van Dyke Parks himself. In some ways, he's a bigger part of SMiLE than Brian.

From all I've read, VDP would be the first one to disagree with you on that.   Parks was hired to write lyrics to express his boss's ideas.  He did a damned fine job.  His lyrics are wonderful, but the true greatness of Smile is in Brian Wilson's music and the Beach Boys' singing.   

VDP's lyrics & concepts are an integral, vital component of the overall atmosphere, perception and artistic effect that the Smile music has on listeners, and IMO no one element is more important than any other, it is the sum of all of its parts and couldn't exist without any of the 3 elements (no pun intended) mentioned, even if he has been self-effacing and modestly (correctly) describes his lyrical efforts as purely shaped by the musical pieces he was presented with by Brian.
Without Van Dyke Parks, there would be no Heroes and Villains, no Surf's Up, no Cabinessence, etc. Sure, we'd probably still have a lot of weird instrumentals and melodies, but without VDP they would just be "feels". SMiLE would be nothing but weird experements, like "Trombone Dixie", or "Mona Kani"(yes, I know it's not a Brian/VDP song, but just go with me on this for the sake of argument). VDP is what made SMiLE...smile.
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« Reply #340 on: March 20, 2011, 03:31:33 AM »

Great first post catmanbird! If only the bits you so beautifully describe were in existence. Let's hope the smile sessions has a few surprises in store.
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« Reply #341 on: March 20, 2011, 10:46:42 AM »

I thought I remembered Van Dyke saying that he DID go through some of his old lyrics?  There was a story, Brian called Van Dyke and said "Hey, do you remember that song "Do You Like Worms?  What's this lyric?"

Because Brian had some old papers with lyrics on them.  Van Dyke said he almost had a heart attack because Brian had been ignoring the album for 40 years, then calls him out of the blue and asks him about a lyric from it.  So Van Dyke pulled out some stuff, and told him over the phone what it was supposed to be.

I could be totally wrong. 
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« Reply #342 on: March 20, 2011, 12:17:14 PM »

I thought I remembered Van Dyke saying that he DID go through some of his old lyrics?  There was a story, Brian called Van Dyke and said "Hey, do you remember that song "Do You Like Worms?  What's this lyric?"

Because Brian had some old papers with lyrics on them.  Van Dyke said he almost had a heart attack because Brian had been ignoring the album for 40 years, then calls him out of the blue and asks him about a lyric from it.  So Van Dyke pulled out some stuff, and told him over the phone what it was supposed to be.

I could be totally wrong. 


I could be wrong, too...  I think it was Darian pulling out the lyric sheet and telling Brian that he can't make out one of the words.  So Brian walks over to the phone and dials Van Dyke (without having to look up the number!) and asks him if he remembers what this one word is in this line.  Van Dyke says the word is Indian -- just like that.  No need for him to look it up.  And that, of course, was the start of what led Brian to inviting Van Dyke to join him in finishing SMiLE.

Love and merci,   Dan Lega
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« Reply #343 on: March 20, 2011, 12:30:49 PM »

Yeah I think Darian and Brian were working on the song and Brian started humming the verse melody, much to Darian's astonishment. Whether he was also singing part of the line too I can't remember but this then lead them on to trying to work out the words for this portion and contacting VDP.
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« Reply #344 on: March 20, 2011, 01:46:10 PM »

So Brian walks over to the phone and dials Van Dyke (without having to look up the number!)

In Peter Carlin's book, one of Brian's high school friends tells of Brian often calling him in the '70s and always somehow managing to find/remember new telephone numbers no matter how often the guy moved.
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« Reply #345 on: March 20, 2011, 02:07:22 PM »

Very true. But there is an even bigger "stumbling block" in this whole project. Van Dyke Parks himself. In some ways, he's a bigger part of SMiLE than Brian.

From all I've read, VDP would be the first one to disagree with you on that.   Parks was hired to write lyrics to express his boss's ideas.  He did a damned fine job.  His lyrics are wonderful, but the true greatness of Smile is in Brian Wilson's music and the Beach Boys' singing.   

VDP's lyrics & concepts are an integral, vital component of the overall atmosphere, perception and artistic effect that the Smile music has on listeners, and IMO no one element is more important than any other, it is the sum of all of its parts and couldn't exist without any of the 3 elements (no pun intended) mentioned, even if he has been self-effacing and modestly (correctly) describes his lyrical efforts as purely shaped by the musical pieces he was presented with by Brian.

Agree with Muted here. I think it's very telling that Smile began to unravel when VDP left. His fingerprints are all over it and I suspect he was a huge inspiration to Brian, and cheerleader in getting Brian to take risks and produce his most adventurous, experimental music. It's no surprise that H&V, once VDP is gone, becomes a more conventional pop song in its structure, and loses some of the glorious rough edges such as the discordant "often wise" bit. Smile was definitely a collaboration, and its genius lies in the partnership of Brian and VDP.

Okay, sure, VDP was an integral part of Smile, but I still take issue with the original poster's statement that VDP was somehow "a bigger part of SMiLE than Brian." 

Yes, he was a lyricist, facilitator, cheerleader, inspiration, etc., but to suggest that Smile might just be more VDP than Brian Wilson is flat-out wrong.  VDP's role in Smile was probably greater than Tony Asher's role in Pet Sounds, but, ultimately, both lyricists were writing the lyrics that Brian Wilson wanted them to write.   I enjoy other VDP albums like Song Cycle, but nothing I've come across in his other work even approaches the greatness of his Smile lyrics.  Why is that?  Maybe, just maybe, Brian Wilson was even more of a facilitator, cheerleader, inspiration to Van Dyke Parks than vice-versa.  In that era, Brian was, by all accounts, a very demanding boss.  He certainly got the best vocal work out of the Beach Boys that they ever did.
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« Reply #346 on: March 20, 2011, 05:00:06 PM »

To say one is more 'the project' than the other is reductive and facile. It was a collaboration, and BW or VDP have talked about their collaboration in nohing less than mutually loving terms. Smile is more than the sum of it's parts.
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« Reply #347 on: March 20, 2011, 07:36:21 PM »

The thing about the acetates is that some may have vocals that are missing from master tapes, or there could be any number of differences
in mixes or performance. By virtue of Van Dyke being around all  the time, he undoubtedly was in possession of more acetates than the rest
of the band, who were off on the road for big chunks of time.

In the event of duplicate acetates, some are going to be in better shape than others, which means they all should be reviewed. It's kind of
impossible to think they would not approach her at some point before this is over.

I've never understood why more of an effort wasn't made to obtain the acetates when working on BWPS in 2003. With the scope of the project and Van Dyke involved it seemed like they could've found a way to make it happen. It seems so obvious that it would have been helpful to hear them before writing new lyrics, etc.
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« Reply #348 on: March 20, 2011, 08:36:06 PM »

The thing about the acetates is that some may have vocals that are missing from master tapes, or there could be any number of differences
in mixes or performance. By virtue of Van Dyke being around all  the time, he undoubtedly was in possession of more acetates than the rest
of the band, who were off on the road for big chunks of time.

In the event of duplicate acetates, some are going to be in better shape than others, which means they all should be reviewed. It's kind of
impossible to think they would not approach her at some point before this is over.

I've never understood why more of an effort wasn't made to obtain the acetates when working on BWPS in 2003. With the scope of the project and Van Dyke involved it seemed like they could've found a way to make it happen. It seems so obvious that it would have been helpful to hear them before writing new lyrics, etc.

Why would they need the acetates then?  They had the principals, and noone would really "know" if the words weren't the same as something 40 years past; and besides they weren't doing Smile 67 it was BWPS.
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« Reply #349 on: March 20, 2011, 09:44:15 PM »

The thing about the acetates is that some may have vocals that are missing from master tapes, or there could be any number of differences
in mixes or performance. By virtue of Van Dyke being around all  the time, he undoubtedly was in possession of more acetates than the rest
of the band, who were off on the road for big chunks of time.

In the event of duplicate acetates, some are going to be in better shape than others, which means they all should be reviewed. It's kind of
impossible to think they would not approach her at some point before this is over.

I've never understood why more of an effort wasn't made to obtain the acetates when working on BWPS in 2003. With the scope of the project and Van Dyke involved it seemed like they could've found a way to make it happen. It seems so obvious that it would have been helpful to hear them before writing new lyrics, etc.

Why would they need the acetates then?  They had the principals, and noone would really "know" if the words weren't the same as something 40 years past; and besides they weren't doing Smile 67 it was BWPS.

Well, yes but things like Child may have had lyrics but they don't seem to be on any extant mixes. There are several other bits that are missing lyrics, and an acetate could very well be the key to finding them.

It does seem like they are going out of their way to avoid her. I wonder why? I thought they were turning every stone looking for the missing pieces.
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