The REAL reason certain BBs albums didnt sell in America...

[drbeachboy]

Folks seem to view late '60's Beach Boys as being some sort of failure -- their concerts weren't drawing, their records weren't selling, they were no longer seen as cutting edge.

Again...they went for 16 months...17 if you weren't really, REALLY on your TOES...'cause there was NO hit song heralding the arrival of a NEW Beach Boys album.  Heroes and Villains had already come and gone and there was NO follow up.  Why?  Because Smiley Smile didn't contain anything worthy of single release.  [and precious little worthy of release period...but that is only *MY* opinion.]  This album was ever-so-quietly snuck out onto the record store shelves.  No fanfare.  No promotion of note.  No one singing its praises.  It was just..."Shhhh...it is here.  We don't know what to say.  It's got Good Vibrations on it.  Gulp!!!"

Everthing else they did in the 60s was taking them in the right direction...although it was a bit of a trip, stumble, fall, get up and keep on truckin' kind of post Smile daze. which found them re-emerging with Sunflower, Surf's Up, Carl and the Passions, Holland and a fanatastic live album which all added up to signal North America and the world that one of the BEST live acts of the entire decade was ready to get 'er done.  [and they did...in spite of themselves]

The talent and body of work prevailed until 'stupid' finally took over.  [everyone contributing to some degree to help give stupid the power to reign supreme.]

The Beach Boys put the general public to sleep for too long.  By the time they were ready to roll again...the general public had moved on to the flavours of the day.  

Please explain how they put us to sleep? It is not like they didn't release singles to go along with the albums released. Some of those songs did quite well everywhere but here in the U.S. Some did do well here. Maybe not like 1966 and prior, but Heroes, Darlin' , Do It Again and I Can Here Music did decently well. Cottonfields was top 5 in many countries, yet didn't make a dent here.

[Bean Bag]

Why did Pet Sounds almost top the chart in the UK and barely top ten in the US? And the other albums that sold well in England but not here??? Has NOTHING to do with the music....has to do with poor marketing/promotion in the US, the fixation of vietnam and all the awful music thanks to the hippie bs...the BBs never made a weak album til after Holland..

I like your sentiment -- especially the hippie BS part!    

It's part of the equation -- not the whole equation, as others have detailed -- but a piece of it.  It was Politics.  Music was now "important."  Important to mobilizing the youth.  It became the soundtrack to the movement -- useful in teasing the otherwise non-interested into action.  And Brian Wilson's growth wasn't useful to that agenda.  The soundtrack needed to motivate disobedience and anti-American, anti-Capitalist social behaviors.

The Beach Boys didn't fit the agenda.  Musically, you're right, the Beach Boys were in fantastic form.  But they weren't deemed useful. 

[Lee Marshall]

"Please explain how they put us to sleep? It is not like they didn't release singles to go along with the albums released. Some of those songs did quite well everywhere but here in the U.S. Some did do well here. Maybe not like 1966 and prior, but Heroes, Darlin' , Do It Again and I Can Here Music did decently well. Cottonfields was top 5 in many countries, yet didn't make a dent here."

When did Good Vibrations slide off the top 40 charts?  2nd week of January 1967 about right?  Wasn't that about the time 'Smile' was supposed to arrive on the store shelves?  GREAT lead in.  Perfect.  Home run?  The plan marches on.  The Beach Boys are totally valid and they have the entire worlds attention.  Smile is accepted.  The Beach Boys  'bury' surfin' music before anyone EVER hears of Jimi Hendirix...who, instead, got to do it for them.  But THAT didn't happen.  Instead DICK-ALL happened.

When Good Vibrations had completed it's run as one of the GREATEST singles ever recorded...The # 1 song in N America was I'm a Believer by you know who.  By the time they finally squeezed Heroes and Villains onto the upper reaches of the charts for a few quick weeks....The Doors had lit a Fire.  Jefferson Airplane were pulling Rabbits out of a hat.  Traffic was singing about a Paper Sun.  The Box Tops were mailing Letters.  Procol Harum had a different 'take' on a whiter sand Pale and Glen Campbell had launched a successful solo career.  That's a lot of sh*t to have happen while the boys just spun their wheels in the sand.

From Pet Sounds...back in the late SPRING of 1966...to Good Vibrations in the late/fall winter of '66, which made the Beach Boys 'all that' in the UK, they followed up with???  Almost nothing.  Back then...singles drove album sales in a meaningful way.  Darlin'?   It did OK....more than a year after Good Vibrations was at its peak.   [Wild Honey?  A bit of a failure in terms of singles chart success]    6 months later....Do It Again?  Not a bad result.  I Can Hear The Ronnetes?  50-50.  Bluebirds Over the Mountain?  Whoops.  Friends?  Not too many left.  The excellent Add Some Music to Your Day?  Huh?  Add what?  I need to explain?

They had the music lovin world by the short and curlies...panting for MORE...as 1966 drew to a close.  And they gave them...after keeping them waiting close to a year and a half for a new album...Smiley  Smile...followed almost as if they were embarrassed by the kind of hastily tossed together Wild Honey album.   Too little...way too late.  And I need to explain?

Explain what?  That the world had passed them by?

Only the heavy duty fans remained...hoping for better.  We would be rewarded.

Everybody else?

Crickets.

[drbeachboy]

"Please explain how they put us to sleep? It is not like they didn't release singles to go along with the albums released. Some of those songs did quite well everywhere but here in the U.S. Some did do well here. Maybe not like 1966 and prior, but Heroes, Darlin' , Do It Again and I Can Here Music did decently well. Cottonfields was top 5 in many countries, yet didn't make a dent here."

When did Good Vibrations slide off the top 40 charts?  2nd week of January 1967 about right?  Wasn't that about the time 'Smile' was supposed to arrive on the store shelves?  GREAT lead in.  Perfect.  Home run?  The plan marches on.  The Beach Boys are totally valid and they have the entire worlds attention.  Smile is accepted.  The Beach Boys  'bury' surfin' music before anyone EVER hears of Jimi Hendirix...who, instead, got to do it for them.  But THAT didn't happen.  Instead DICK-ALL happened.

When Good Vibrations had completed it's run as one of the GREATEST singles ever recorded...The # 1 song in N America was I'm a Believer by you know who.  By the time they finally squeezed Heroes and Villains onto the upper reaches of the charts for a few quick weeks....The Doors had lit a Fire.  Jefferson Airplane were pulling Rabbits out of a hat.  Traffic was singing about a Paper Sun.  The Box Tops were mailing Letters.  Procol Harum had a different 'take' on a whiter sand Pale and Glen Campbell had launched a successful solo career.  That's a lot of sh*t to have happen while the boys just spun their wheels in the sand.

From Pet Sounds...back in the late SPRING of 1966...to Good Vibrations in the late/fall winter of '66, which made the Beach Boys 'all that' in the UK, they followed up with???  Almost nothing.  Back then...singles drove album sales in a meaningful way.  Darlin'?   It did OK....more than a year after Good Vibrations was at its peak.   [Wild Honey?  A bit of a failure in terms of singles chart success]    6 months later....Do It Again?  Not a bad result.  I Can Hear The Ronnetes?  50-50.  Bluebirds Over the Mountain?  Whoops.  Friends?  Not too many left.  The excellent Add Some Music to Your Day?  Huh?  Add what?  I need to explain?

They had the music lovin world by the short and curlies...panting for MORE...as 1966 drew to a close.  And they gave them...after keeping them waiting close to a year and a half for a new album...Smiley  Smile...followed almost as if they were embarrassed by the kind of hastily tossed together Wild Honey album.   Too little...way too late.  And I need to explain?

Explain what?  That the world had passed them by?

Only the heavy duty fans remained...hoping for better.  We would be rewarded.

Everybody else?

Crickets.

I never said the world didn't pass them by, because in fact, they did. You and I have a different perception of "doing nothing" and "spinning wheels". While I agree with you that they didn't strike while the fire was hot in late 66 through early 67, they did in fact keep quite busy with two albums in 1967 and one each in 1968 and 1969. None of the songs that they released were terrible songs, they just didn't fit in any one category like hard rock, bubblegum, soul, etc. Even to my own friends who knew how much I loved the band and heard their music through me, never did they think that any of it was cool or relevant to the anti-war or hippy movement going on in the U.S.. Back then if you didn't fit into a label, you were nothing. Well, I take that back, they were labeled, "Square" and it killed their reputation as a rock band.

[filledeplage]

Folks seem to view late '60's Beach Boys as being some sort of failure -- their concerts weren't drawing, their records weren't selling, they were no longer seen as cutting edge.

Again...they went for 16 months...17 if you weren't really, REALLY on your TOES...'cause there was NO hit song heralding the arrival of a NEW Beach Boys album.  Heroes and Villains had already come and gone and there was NO follow up.  Why?  Because Smiley Smile didn't contain anything worthy of single release.  [and precious little worthy of release period...but that is only *MY* opinion.]  This album was ever-so-quietly snuck out onto the record store shelves.  No fanfare.  No promotion of note.  No one singing its praises.  It was just..."Shhhh...it is here.  We don't know what to say.  It's got Good Vibrations on it.  Gulp!!!"

Everthing else they did in the 60s was taking them in the right direction...although it was a bit of a trip, stumble, fall, get up and keep on truckin' kind of post Smile daze. which found them re-emerging with Sunflower, Surf's Up, Carl and the Passions, Holland and a fanatastic live album which all added up to signal North America and the world that one of the BEST live acts of the entire decade was ready to get 'er done.  [and they did...in spite of themselves]

The talent and body of work prevailed until 'stupid' finally took over.  [everyone contributing to some degree to help give stupid the power to reign supreme.]

The Beach Boys put the general public to sleep for too long.  By the time they were ready to roll again...the general public had moved on to the flavours of the day.  

Please explain how they put us to sleep? It is not like they didn't release singles to go along with the albums released. Some of those songs did quite well everywhere but here in the U.S. Some did do well here. Maybe not like 1966 and prior, but Heroes, Darlin' , Do It Again and I Can Here Music did decently well. Cottonfields was top 5 in many countries, yet didn't make a dent here.

The music was hardly a failure.  What may have failed was this stereotypical imagery that the public had, and the total failure ( strong but probably accurate) to maintain traction and momentum by the record company, with Pet Sounds and Smiley in particular.  And, although the Beatles shed their suits, the BB's weren't allowed to do so, without being perceived as hypocrites and fakers.  From striped shirts, to suits, to street clothes. 

Cottonfields was one of those songs that was in the old American folk song catalog, but taken in context of the racially inflammatory US, it went right under the bus, as any song such as "Jimmy Crack Corn and I don't care, my Master's gone away" among others were purged from music anthologies in schools.  Cottonfields is a great song, but the connotation was exactly wrong in this country (US) at that time.  In fairness, we didn't know that half the nursery rhymes had some double entendre as well.

What is amazing is that they heroically went to Prague, in 1969 a move that couldn't have been more "activist" but never really got the accolades they merited for thinking globally.  There is still an article from the Prague -Post with a pretty poor quality photo.  Two students had self-immolated in protest of the Soviet Invasion.

And the UNICEF concert in Paris in 1967, showed that they were acting socially responsibly by "paying it forward" but never getting credit or seeing really favorable press in the States.  Only marginalized as the old "live for today" and as self-absorbed hedonists.  Had that concert taken place in New York City, and broadcast nationally, the story might have been evolving differently, at that time.  Those concerts would have hit YouTube had it existed at the time.  There was no "equalizer" such as the World Wide Web, then. 

Carl Wilson, the "draft dodger," performing for UNICEF, might have created uncontroverted evidence that he was "giving back" in Paris, and "subverting Communism" in Prague. The Vietnam War was about "fighting Communism." And defending American ideals, or "perceived ideals" even if it was a sort of propaganda.

They did what they had to do, likely being given lip service and lame promotion by the record company, who made millions on their recordings.  They were undermined, in my view, to advance the agendas of others.  JMHO

Who could blame them, after working hard on more progressive music to attempt to regain traction in the industry, to find that "familiarity" factor that made them successful in the first place? At least no one could call them hypocrites with Do It Again, or I Can Hear Music.  And it was a place for solid fans, to "mark time" (patiently march in place) until things would be "made right." 

[drbeachboy]

Folks seem to view late '60's Beach Boys as being some sort of failure -- their concerts weren't drawing, their records weren't selling, they were no longer seen as cutting edge.

Again...they went for 16 months...17 if you weren't really, REALLY on your TOES...'cause there was NO hit song heralding the arrival of a NEW Beach Boys album.  Heroes and Villains had already come and gone and there was NO follow up.  Why?  Because Smiley Smile didn't contain anything worthy of single release.  [and precious little worthy of release period...but that is only *MY* opinion.]  This album was ever-so-quietly snuck out onto the record store shelves.  No fanfare.  No promotion of note.  No one singing its praises.  It was just..."Shhhh...it is here.  We don't know what to say.  It's got Good Vibrations on it.  Gulp!!!"

Everthing else they did in the 60s was taking them in the right direction...although it was a bit of a trip, stumble, fall, get up and keep on truckin' kind of post Smile daze. which found them re-emerging with Sunflower, Surf's Up, Carl and the Passions, Holland and a fanatastic live album which all added up to signal North America and the world that one of the BEST live acts of the entire decade was ready to get 'er done.  [and they did...in spite of themselves]

The talent and body of work prevailed until 'stupid' finally took over.  [everyone contributing to some degree to help give stupid the power to reign supreme.]

The Beach Boys put the general public to sleep for too long.  By the time they were ready to roll again...the general public had moved on to the flavours of the day. 

Please explain how they put us to sleep? It is not like they didn't release singles to go along with the albums released. Some of those songs did quite well everywhere but here in the U.S. Some did do well here. Maybe not like 1966 and prior, but Heroes, Darlin' , Do It Again and I Can Here Music did decently well. Cottonfields was top 5 in many countries, yet didn't make a dent here.

The music was hardly a failure.  What may have failed was this stereotypical imagery that the public had, and the total failure ( strong but probably accurate) to maintain traction and momentum by the record company, with Pet Sounds and Smiley in particular.  And, although the Beatles shed their suits, the BB's weren't allowed to do so, without being perceived as hypocrites and fakers.  From striped shirts, to suits, to street clothes. 

Cottonfields was one of those songs that was in the old American folk song catalog, but taken in context of the racially inflammatory US, it went right under the bus, as any song such as "Jimmy Crack Corn and I don't care, my Master's gone away" among others were purged from music anthologies in schools.  Cottonfields is a great song, but the connotation was exactly wrong in this country (US) at that time.  In fairness, we didn't know that half the nursery rhymes had some double entendre as well.

What is amazing is that they heroically went to Prague, in 1969 a move that couldn't have been more "activist" but never really got the accolades they merited for thinking globally.  There is still an article from the Prague -Post with a pretty poor quality photo.  Two students had self-immolated in protest of the Soviet Invasion.

And the UNICEF concert in Paris in 1967, showed that they were acting socially responsibly by "paying it forward" but never getting credit or seeing really favorable press in the States.  Only marginalized as the old "live for today" and as self-absorbed hedonists.  Had that concert taken place in New York City, and broadcast nationally, the story might have been evolving differently, at that time.  Those concerts would have hit YouTube had it existed at the time.  There was no "equalizer" such as the World Wide Web, then. 

Carl Wilson, the "draft dodger," performing for UNICEF, might have created uncontroverted evidence that he was "giving back" in Paris, and "subverting Communism" in Prague. The Vietnam War was about "fighting Communism." And defending American ideals, or "perceived ideals" even if it was a sort of propaganda.

They did what they had to do, likely being given lip service and lame promotion by the record company, who made millions on their recordings.  They were undermined, in my view, to advance the agendas of others.  JMHO

Who could blame them, after working hard on more progressive music to attempt to regain traction in the industry, to find that "familiarity" factor that made them successful in the first place? At least no one could call them hypocrites with Do It Again, or I Can Hear Music.  And it was a place for solid fans, to "mark time" (patiently march in place) until things would be "made right." 

Exactly, and when it was "made right", they have been knocked ever since as being the Live Jukebox. They can't win, really.

[Mr. Cohen]

You know, it would've been interesting to hear Al Jardine redo the Wild Honey album. As strange as it sounds, in interviews Al seems to have had a good handle on the Beach Boys struggles. He said something along the lines of how all of sudden everything Brian did had to be underproduced, with that detuned piano or organ on everything. Look what he did with "Cotton Fields".

[filledeplage]

You know, it would've been interesting to hear Al Jardine redo the Wild Honey album. As strange as it sounds, in interviews Al seems to have had a good handle on the Beach Boys struggles. He said something along the lines of how all of sudden everything Brian did had to be underproduced, with that detuned piano or organ on everything. Look what he did with "Cotton Fields".

Wild Honey is absolutely perfect, just as it is.   

No "do-over" necessary.

[Micha]

You know, it would've been interesting to hear Al Jardine redo the Wild Honey album. As strange as it sounds, in interviews Al seems to have had a good handle on the Beach Boys struggles. He said something along the lines of how all of sudden everything Brian did had to be underproduced, with that detuned piano or organ on everything. Look what he did with "Cotton Fields".

Wild Honey is absolutely perfect, just as it is.

That's debatable and subject to opinion. No "do-over" necessary? Probably not, but it would have been interesting. I'd like to hear Rick Henn's version of the instrumental tracks.

[Mr. Cohen]

I love Wild Honey, but I don't see it as a commercial album, except for "Darlin'". I can't imagine playing it for my friends and having them be overly impressed.

[drbeachboy]

I love Wild Honey, but I don't see it as a commercial album, except for "Darlin'". I can't imagine playing it for my friends and having them be overly impressed.

You can lead a horse to water...

If you love it, maybe they will love it too. As Carl Wilson used to say, "It is what it is".

[filledeplage]

I love Wild Honey, but I don't see it as a commercial album, except for "Darlin'". I can't imagine playing it for my friends and having them be overly impressed.

Mr. Cohen - you can't impose your obvious good musical taste on your friends.  They might love the Greatest Hits.  I've developed low standards for my friends.  (I don't even discuss the BB's.)

Now there's this great networked group of well-informed fans, on this forum, or at BB/BW/AJ concerts, who know the catalog, inside out.  It's just fantastic.  

People just gravitate to what will form their musical tastes.  I had the old LP.  The newer CD had some bonus tracks from Smile.  But, like religion, you might be trying to convert them.  Give them a CD.  They might listen (or not) and be converted.

And, I give CD's as gifts but know who to give the GH ones to, and the ones to whom I give Pet Sounds to.  If they "get" Pet Sounds, they may seek out the other stuff.  

[Lee Marshall]

Anyway...I think we agree Dr. Beach Boy that the world passed the Beach Boys by...while they were sitting in a garage trying to figure out whether to rebuild the engine or just change out some parts...or not 'fiddle' with the formula at all.

Whether you wish to refer to it as doing nothing or spinning their wheels is not the point...is it?  The world decided.  The boys were ready to pounce on a golden opportunity...one which would have changed a whole heap of different courses...and history.  And...they didn't do it.  They didn't jump.  That the majority of what they would go on to realease after Smiley Smile was outstanding through to 1974 matters not to the over-all scheme of things or to the perception of the Beach Boys at that time.

The world...for the most part missed it.  The group had to come to terms with the results of their own undoing.  The thread is about why certain of their albums didn't sell in America.  They looked their golden opportunity square in the eye and basically just blew it.

Fortunately they had the talent and the tunes to still make a go of it.   [just not anywhere near to the level of success that they might otherwise have achieved if Smile had been completed in a timely fashion and come out as scheduled.]

[drbeachboy]

Anyway...I think we agree Dr. Beach Boy that the world passed the Beach Boys by...while they we're sitting in a garage trying to figure out whether to rebuild the engine or just change out some parts...or not 'fiddle' with the formula at all.

Whether you wish to refer to it as doing nothing or spinning their wheels is not the point...is it?  The world decided.  The boys were ready to pounce on a golden opportunity...one which would have changed a whole heap of different courses...and history.  And...they didn't do it.  They didn't jump.  That the majority of what they would go on to realease after Smiley Smile was outstanding through to 1974 matters not to the over-all scheme of things or to the perception of the Beach Boys at that time.

The world...for the most part missed it.  The group had to come to terms with the results of their own undoing.  The thread is about why certain of their albums didn't sell in America.  They looked their golden opportunity square in the eye and basically just blew it.

Fortunately they had the talent and the tunes to still make a go of it.   [just not anywhere near to the level of success that they might otherwise have achieved if Smile had been completed in a timely fashion and come out as scheduled.]

Well, actually Brian blew it. The band went as Brian went. Again, the albums from that period fared much better everywhere else but here. Brian was never going to write music in the style of Steppenwolf, Hendrix or Iron Butterfly. By the time of Crosby, Stills & Nash, where Brian's music matches better, the band's cred was shot. I'm at peace with it 45 years later. It used to eat at me back in the 70's, but fine with it all now. I like what was created during that period. I makes me happy and at this point all I can do is point people back to it and hope it makes them happy too.

[filledeplage]

Anyway...I think we agree Dr. Beach Boy that the world passed the Beach Boys by...while they were sitting in a garage trying to figure out whether to rebuild the engine or just change out some parts...or not 'fiddle' with the formula at all.

Whether you wish to refer to it as doing nothing or spinning their wheels is not the point...is it?  The world decided.  The boys were ready to pounce on a golden opportunity...one which would have changed a whole heap of different courses...and history.  And...they didn't do it.  They didn't jump.  That the majority of what they would go on to realease after Smiley Smile was outstanding through to 1974 matters not to the over-all scheme of things or to the perception of the Beach Boys at that time.

The world...for the most part missed it.  The group had to come to terms with the results of their own undoing.  The thread is about why certain of their albums didn't sell in America.  They looked their golden opportunity square in the eye and basically just blew it.

Fortunately they had the talent and the tunes to still make a go of it.   [just not anywhere near to the level of success that they might otherwise have achieved if Smile had been completed in a timely fashion and come out as scheduled.]

"They blew it?" I don't buy that, don't agree, and that sort of smacks of "victim blaming" or spin, when there is a power grab in motion.  It is the old "divide and conquer" modus operandi.

Pet Sounds was under-promoted, released May 16, 1966, and Best of Vol. 1 on July 5, 1966.  Good Vibrations single, in October of 1966. Mega hit.

Best of Vol. 2 came out  on July 24, 1967.  Smiley Smile, on its' heels,  Sept. 18, 1967, was a "bunt instead of a grand slam" (words of a BB) and now that the sessions have been released, likely should have been a double LP release anticipated.  I don't know if it was contemplated as a double LP.  At the time, they had a lot going on.  And music was changing at warp speed.  

The chronology of the releases tells a big story.  And the lack of promotion is glaring.  The SMiLE Tour happened in 2004.  Brian and his great band made that happen.  They did the job the record company should have done. JMHO

They aren't any different from anyone else.  We all decide one way or another what happens in life, but sometimes external forces and unforeseen circumstances get in the way.  I'd never blame them.

[Lee Marshall]

Well Doc...I wouldn't blame it all on Brian.  We've heard what he did...with a little tinkering...all those years ago.  Pretty danged impressive.  No need to once again go into what all impacted on the decision to finally walk away from the project and subsequently suggest that we weren't ready for it...but that we were ready for Smiley Smile.  A terrible 'call'.

"Brian was never going to write music in the style of Steppenwolf, Hendrix or Iron Butterfly. By the time of Crosby, Stills & Nash, where Brian's music matches better, the band's cred was shot."

Brian wouldn't have HAD to have written like those artists did.  There was room for what they were all doing...and Smile...Like Sgt Peppers would have been viewed as a leader and an important moment in the hisrtoy of music...just like Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations ARE.  CSNand Y?  Same thing...although THEY might have had to have worked a little harder had Brian set the pace...and the BAR..


Filled...That you don't or won't blame them is your call...and likely that works for you.  No problem with that from me.  I, on the other hand would suggest that the artist or artists have to accept some of the responsibility for their actions and for the choices they make/made.  They weren't a team.  They weren't united.  They didn't share the same vision.  The creative foundation of the unit was de-frocked and set adrift by the very people he needed to trust and count on...and I don't mean the not ready for prime time 'playas' at the record company. 

After all of that was said and done...they did OK.  Better than most.  It could have been a whole lot more though. 

That said ... we still love 'em.  Because we know.

[filledeplage]

Well Doc...I wouldn't blame it all on Brian.  We've heard what he did...with a little tinkering...all those years ago.  Pretty danged impressive.  No need to once again go into what all impacted on the decision to finally walk away from the project and subsequently suggest that we weren't ready for it...but that we were ready for Smiley Smile.  A terrible 'call'.

"Brian was never going to write music in the style of Steppenwolf, Hendrix or Iron Butterfly. By the time of Crosby, Stills & Nash, where Brian's music matches better, the band's cred was shot."

Brian wouldn't have HAD to have written like those artists did.  There was room for what they were all doing...and Smile...Like Sgt Peppers would have been viewed as a leader and an important moment in the hisrtoy of music...just like Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations ARE.  CSNand Y?  Same thing...although THEY might have had to have worked a little harder had Brian set the pace...and the BAR..

Filled...That you don't or won't blame them is your call...and likely that works for you.  No problem with that from me.  I, on the other hand would suggest that the artist or artists have to accept some of the responsibility for their actions and for the choices they make/made.  They weren't a team.  They weren't united.  They didn't share the same vision.  The creative foundation of the unit was de-frocked and set adrift by the very people he needed to trust and count on...and I don't mean the not ready for prime time 'playas' at the record company. 

After all of that was said and done...they did OK.  Better than most.  It could have been a whole lot more though. 

That said ... we still love 'em.  Because we know.

It is also because the chronology sort of intertwined with The Beatles Sgt. Pepper's on June 1, 1967 by EMI (Capitol) and widely promoted.  It inspired Edwardian era fashion, modeled after the album's fictitious theme.  And an album cover by Peter Blake which stood out on the record racks. 

It is very complex.  But, I don't know whether there was a team or not.  I wasn't there.  We can tell from the vocals that they did great work.  Every one of them.  I think they did their best to keep the music out there.  The old setlists show they did perform a lot of the Smile work in concert, despite being limited on actual stage time, by the other performers on the billing. 

Had the Pet Sounds and Smile project been given the promotion we know they merited, things might have been different.  But, it might have turned out better, being released decades later, because so many people (such as on this forum) saw the merit and beauty of what was not released, and helped make it happen. 

[drbeachboy]

Well Doc...I wouldn't blame it all on Brian.  We've heard what he did...with a little tinkering...all those years ago.  Pretty danged impressive.  No need to once again go into what all impacted on the decision to finally walk away from the project and subsequently suggest that we weren't ready for it...but that we were ready for Smiley Smile.  A terrible 'call'.

"Brian was never going to write music in the style of Steppenwolf, Hendrix or Iron Butterfly. By the time of Crosby, Stills & Nash, where Brian's music matches better, the band's cred was shot."

Brian wouldn't have HAD to have written like those artists did.  There was room for what they were all doing...and Smile...Like Sgt Peppers would have been viewed as a leader and an important moment in the hisrtoy of music...just like Pet Sounds and Good Vibrations ARE.  CSNand Y?  Same thing...although THEY might have had to have worked a little harder had Brian set the pace...and the BAR..


Filled...That you don't or won't blame them is your call...and likely that works for you.  No problem with that from me.  I, on the other hand would suggest that the artist or artists have to accept some of the responsibility for their actions and for the choices they make/made.  They weren't a team.  They weren't united.  They didn't share the same vision.  The creative foundation of the unit was de-frocked and set adrift by the very people he needed to trust and count on...and I don't mean the not ready for prime time 'playas' at the record company.  

After all of that was said and done...they did OK.  Better than most.  It could have been a whole lot more though.  

That said ... we still love 'em.  Because we know.

Just so we're clear, when I say Brian, I mean his songs, his arrangements. I mean, many of the songs on Smiley are Smile songs with different arrangements. Same with Wild Honey, Brian's songs and arrangements. Both albums were his call regarding what would be on them and how they would sound. This is why I never understood all the hoopla about the band being somewhat negative towards Smile, yet not with Smiley Smile. All of that has to be way overblown. There is no way that they liked Smiley more than Smile.

[Lee Marshall]

"There is no way that they liked Smiley more than Smile."

That's a fact Jack!!!

[Mr. Cohen]

The vibe I got with Smiley Smile is that the band didn't know they were recording an album, per se. In an interview one of the band members (I think it was Al) recalled being under the impression that Brian was recording some home studio experiments to add to the stuff he'd recorded for Smile. The only Smile songs he completely redid during the sessions were "Wind Chimes", "Wonderful",  and "Vegetables" (except the tag). "Heroes and Villains" was a mix of everything.

Brian, at that point in his career, never really told the band what he was up to. They did what he said or there was an argument. I think they went along with Smiley Smile because a) they were desperate to get Brian recording again, and b) they didn't know they were recording an entire new album. I doubt they were thrilled when Brian presented the master to Smiley Smile, but they didn't have the ultimate choice.

[Mr. Cohen]

I like that reading of events because it makes sense, too. It was a  tricky way for Brian to get the Smile monkey off his back without actually returning to the Smile tapes. Once Smiley Smile was out there, he could say that Smile couldn't work as a new album anymore.

[Juice Brohnston]

I'm very unsure about this but I think I once heard that Pet Sounds sold much better than what was said in the 60s but that didn't come out until years later. If there's some truth to it maybe somebody can fill in here. I never quite understood what this was about.

When the accounting that resulted in PS being awarded a platinum disc was being done, it was discovered that it had sold enough to go gold in the summer of 1967... but as Capitol never requested an audit, it wasn't ratified as such.

Also, not all albums that sold poorly in the US did better in the UK: in fact some that sold well in the US didn't sell AT ALL in the UK - of the seven albums released in the UK 1962-65, only one (LDC) charted at all - granted, the British album chart back then was only a Top 20, but even so...

AGD, was an audit ever requested for Party!? I think it was in Timothy White's book, where there was mention of 500,000 promotional popcorn bags being printed, or something like that.  Barbara Ann was a pretty big hit.  I remember talking to Mike about it one time, and he felt pretty sure it was a 'two for Capitol, one for the band" type accounting happening.

[Jim V.]

Why did Pet Sounds almost top the chart in the UK and barely top ten in the US? And the other albums that sold well in England but not here??? Has NOTHING to do with the music....has to do with poor marketing/promotion in the US, the fixation of vietnam and all the awful music thanks to the hippie bs...the BBs never made a weak album til after Holland..

I like your sentiment -- especially the hippie BS part!    

It's part of the equation -- not the whole equation, as others have detailed -- but a piece of it.  It was Politics.  Music was now "important."  Important to mobilizing the youth.  It became the soundtrack to the movement -- useful in teasing the otherwise non-interested into action.  And Brian Wilson's growth wasn't useful to that agenda.  The soundtrack needed to motivate disobedience and anti-American, anti-Capitalist social behaviors.

The Beach Boys didn't fit the agenda.  Musically, you're right, the Beach Boys were in fantastic form.  But they weren't deemed useful. 

What ON EARTH are you talking about? Hardly any of the groups were really anti-American. Seriously, who are you talking about? Bob Dylan? Cuz last time I checked he LOVES America and is proud of the musical tradition. The Beatles, because they sang "Back in the U.S.S.R."? Or because they said they wanted to make Apple Corps "a kind of hippie socialism"? And since socialism is such a no-no in America (well unless you're old and you collect Medicare and Social Security...and then still complain about "socialists"...HA!) they musta been anti-capitalist, anti-American. Right. And because many artists in the late '60 and early '70s were against the bullshit Vietnam War, well shoot, THEY must be anti-American too! Because if they don't wanna send our young men everywhere around the world on killing missions, they must be anti-American too, right?

Jeez man, give us a break. It's not like Pete Seeger* was one of the leading lights of the late '60s music scene. You just have that victim mentality that is all so prevalent amongst WASP-y conservatives these days. You know, "everybody hates America and they wanna take my great country away from me!"

Gimme a break.



*Pete Seeger wasn't anti-American either, and was actually a pretty great man, and a great American. However, when I hear people spout what you were saying there, I started thinking of Seeger and the Weavers being blacklisted.

[Bean Bag]

Why did Pet Sounds almost top the chart in the UK and barely top ten in the US? And the other albums that sold well in England but not here??? Has NOTHING to do with the music....has to do with poor marketing/promotion in the US, the fixation of vietnam and all the awful music thanks to the hippie bs...the BBs never made a weak album til after Holland..

I like your sentiment -- especially the hippie BS part!    

It's part of the equation -- not the whole equation, as others have detailed -- but a piece of it.  It was Politics.  Music was now "important."  Important to mobilizing the youth.  It became the soundtrack to the movement -- useful in teasing the otherwise non-interested into action.  And Brian Wilson's growth wasn't useful to that agenda.  The soundtrack needed to motivate disobedience and anti-American, anti-Capitalist social behaviors.

The Beach Boys didn't fit the agenda.  Musically, you're right, the Beach Boys were in fantastic form.  But they weren't deemed useful. 

What ON EARTH are you talking about? Hardly any of the groups were really anti-American. Seriously, who are you talking about? Bob Dylan? Cuz last time I checked he LOVES America and is proud of the musical tradition. The Beatles, because they sang "Back in the U.S.S.R."? Or because they said they wanted to make Apple Corps "a kind of hippie socialism"? And since socialism is such a no-no in America (well unless you're old and you collect Medicare and Social Security...and then still complain about "socialists"...HA!) they musta been anti-capitalist, anti-American. Right. And because many artists in the late '60 and early '70s were against the bullshit Vietnam War, well shoot, THEY must be anti-American too! Because if they don't wanna send our young men everywhere around the world on killing missions, they must be anti-American too, right?

Jeez man, give us a break. It's not like Pete Seeger* was one of the leading lights of the late '60s music scene. You just have that victim mentality that is all so prevalent amongst WASP-y conservatives these days. You know, "everybody hates America and they wanna take my great country away from me!"

Gimme a break.



*Pete Seeger wasn't anti-American either, and was actually a pretty great man, and a great American. However, when I hear people spout what you were saying there, I started thinking of Seeger and the Weavers being blacklisted.

Hey SweetDude!  Thanks for asking.  I'm talking Politics, which happens here on Earth quite regularly.  Unfortunately.  It's a nuisance.  Saying it doesn't exist though, doesn't provide any advantage, unless one wishes to advance it.  (Ironic.  You gotta say it, to slay it.)

Ok, real quick... The strife, tension and turmoil you mentioned was the opportunity (open wound) to inject/infect western culture with an agenda.  Entertainment and academia was what young impressionable minds consumed -- so this is where they gravitated.  Today, these institutions (especially academia) are closed, solid propaganda camps.

Political types go where the audience is (see: NFL).  There weren't enough people still listening to the Beach Boys in the late 60s and 70s -- and the Beach Boys didn't appear to care about political messages, just good music.  The Beach Boys sensed this and tried to inject more "important messages."  But it didn't stick.

Did that help?  Again, not the whole equation, just a part of it.